[YVES]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

actually, I'm even fine with them making it a luxury. All Indian manufacturers are no different. But the fact that they are limiting supply, and whats worse, the dealers using this to dictate terms to customers is what irks me.

If Suzuki provides Safety features as commun accross variants they will be pricy and will loose the volume numbers.
So for them Volumes are driven at cost of safety of poor Indian buyers (First time buyers) looking for VFM and comparing safety with earlier driven 2 wheel viechles.

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

actually, I'm even fine with them making it a luxury. All Indian manufacturers are no different. But the fact that they are limiting supply, and whats worse, the dealers using this to dictate terms to customers is what irks me.

Originally Posted by YVES

If Suzuki provides Safety features as commun accross variants they will be pricy and will loose the volume numbers.
So for them Volumes are driven at cost of safety of poor Indian buyers (First time buyers) looking for VFM and comparing safety with earlier driven 2 wheel viechles.

YVES, please re read My post. I am not saying that maruti should make ABS/Airbags standard across the range. All I'm asking is that they make their existing ABS/Airbags versions available in the same, or at least similar timelines as the regular versions.

EDIT: @ Trust In thrust. NCAP ratings are almost irrelevant for most cars in India, since very few have airbags.

[Trust_In_Thrust]

Safety : NCAP tests are done against a deforming barrier .In all developed countries road design, trucks have long bars on all four sides for car to use their deforming zones druing accident.
While in India we can hit anything , and anything may hit us .It may not necessarily be the bars on the side of a truck , it may not be road barrier etc but it can also be tree trunks , going underside a truck , hitting poles , overturning etc.

So i believe the design goes for a toss in scenarios which the structual designers of car never thought off .All they do is strengthen those areas which deforms due to test carried out by NCAP .That is sole reason why i see japenese box become death boxes in accidents which are not normal type accidents .
Thus over the years i have seen so many accidents including on the Accidents in India thread and i always see Japanese cars suffer much more damage compared to their European counterparts.

[samsan02]

Originally Posted by mnhegde

Samsan: What is your point?? What are you trying to prove?? Please be clear. If you hate Suzuki so be it. But why are you arguing each and every point?? Just for the sake of ARGUING??

Dear mnhegde,

I am not here to prove anything. The facts are there for everyone to judge. I simply feel pity at you guys, who just blindly support Maruti. If I hated Maruti, I dont have to justify it here, yes it will hated by me. And I never said that I hated them.
It only amuses me when people try to justify what maruti is just for sake of it. Why you guys dont accept that its not right for Maruti or any other car manufacturer to sell a car with out basic stuff, like a ORVM in this case.

Anyway forget it ! Its not worth writing about.

Originally Posted by Gansan

What I am saying is mfrs tend to give you just what is mandatory in all versions. Anything more, even an extra RVM, will come only in the "deluxe" versions! Pay Rs 200 and get it installed while taking delivery, not a big deal!

Gansan, you are right. You and me know that we would need that extra fitting. Not a villager who doesn't know about cars much and the necessity of them, when he upgrades to one.

Ok I give up. No more on ORVMS. Happy now

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by YVES

1) ENCAP ratings have gone a sea change,
Couple of years ago those rated 4 stars are now capable of getting rated 5 stars due to changes done within Encap as they have changed certain parameters of rating.

2) So come what may security is a compromise which is a fact as far as Suzuki goes.
Various accidents in city in India involving Suzuki cars is a pointer.

3) I have seen a accident where Omni crashed into Indica , the Indica speed away in 10 mins , It took 3 hours to get the driver out of Omni

In general Suzuki in terms of Safety is notches lower to honda & Toyota forget the European cars.

1) If your information is correct, then Suzuki Swift is a 5-star rating car!
I think they have included some changes in 2009 itself.

2) In point 1 you say that cars that are actually 4 star earlier are capable of getting 5 star rating. So how Suzuki cars are a compromise ?
Omni is a deathbox and we all know this, but newer cars from Suzuki are not a safety compromise.

If you feel that images are proof enough of car's structural integrity, have a look at this :
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...toughness.html

3) Omin is really not safe, it a very apparent thing. It sells due to utility + convenience of presonal mobility IMO. Not all can afford safe cars. At the end of the day, Omni cannot be termed safe.

Originally Posted by samsan02

Dear aaggoswami,
4) What you said is mostly agreeable but dont justify the above statement (in italics) just for the sake of taking side of Maruti. You will look Stupid.
Having a left ORVM on an Alto is a luxury and India is different for that matter, and its a necessity in developed markets and not in india. And i wonder how much will it add to the overall cost. Or may be During sales The salesman will come running and say this " Sir We have a nice Diwali offer sir, we are giving free Left ORVM if you book by this date"


5) Verna, whats with verna its sure is a safety compromise when even in the top end you don't get Airbags with the price you pay. (That was when I last checked in Aug 2009) And FYI Verna is a Hyundai not Maruti, so don't just blindly support Maruti just for the sake of it or if you happen to own one.

4) My point was, its matter of just cost.

5) Point is, if Maruti is not good as you have tried best to portray, others are not great as again you have tried to prove. So if you are happy to bring maruti into discussion, be kind enough to bring in other manufacturers also. Atleast be open to accept that its not only Maruti, but others are equally culprit as far as compromise goes.


The way you are posting here, I am still not able to get to your core intentions of starting this thread.
List down cars that you feel are not compromise.

And atleast maruti offers reliability and has confidence about its products. Cars that are called safe like Punto and Linea suffer from bad A.S & S ( before putting reply, search entire TBHP for such threads ), and Fiat is not even confident about their products. People have to rely on Tata A. S& S. which itself is not good in the first place.

List down your parameters of safety and list down the cars that you feel are safe. This will help this discussion a lot.

Originally Posted by greenhorn

aaggoswami, I think one point is the availablity of ABS/Airbags versions. Its hard enough taking delivery of regular swift/dzires. A colleague who wanted to order a Dzire ZDi ABS+ airbags ( he was a regular tbhp reader and was well aware of their benefits) was hit with a min. 9 month waiting period(after checking with the three dealerships in town - I know that there are some of you who can get hold of one sooner, but this is what the average Indian buyer has to put up with) . He had to compromise and go for a vanilla LDi version which he got in 2 months ( and this was with all the strings he could pull - and got a colour he did not want, and a trim level he did not want).Maruti has no issues putting abs/airbags on export spec models, and yet it give Indians the short end of the stick.

I think the dealer is the culprit also. I agree that higher end variants are in demand and thanks to exports of A-star, the overall production of Swift Dzire suffers.

[WhiteKnight]

Originally Posted by samsan02

I am not here to prove anything. The facts are there for everyone to judge. I simply feel pity at you guys, who just blindly support Maruti. If I hated Maruti, I dont have to justify it here, yes it will hated by me. And I never said that I hated them.

Please watch you tone. Just because you started a thread doesn't give you divine powers to badmouth others. If you have a point better justify it here. Till now I've not seen any valuable, factual contribution from you rather than questioning everyone's point. You even nicely side-stepped the statistics put by others.

Questioning others is aways easy, because one don't need to think.. Let this better be left to national TV anchors-they make a living out of it.

Originally Posted by samsan02

Why you guys dont accept that its not right for Maruti or any other car manufacturer to sell a car with out basic stuff, like a ORVM in this case.

Everyone is here on business. So, don't expect anything unless
1) Customer demands it, forcing manufacturers to include.
2) There is a regulation
3) There is an opportunity to make more profit

Again, nothing to do with "Indian" here. It is a fact across globe. As a responsible forum, let's raise our voice for safety features. But not by badmouthing car buyers.

Originally Posted by samsan02

Anyway forget it ! Its not worth writing about.

Aha!!!. A bit late gyan though

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

I think the dealer is the culprit also. I agree that higher end variants are in demand and thanks to exports of A-star, the overall production of Swift Dzire suffers.

Doubt that. There are three Maruti dealerships in my city, and the situation was the same. In fact, 9 months was the most optimistic quote that he got.
I think he tried from Cochin too - a bigger city near Trivandrum. The picture wasn't too different there either.

@ trust in thrust, Don't say the F word We're talking about the S word here.

So many people defending the SX4. Would these same people defend a Sedici Sedan with the same zeal if it were launched here ?

[thewhiteknight]

I think MUL-Suzuki and India have a very symbiotic relationship. They have managed to understand what a consumer in India needs and equally importantly, wants. At a time when we could choose from all of 3 car models, they came in and put the nation on wheels, and have been consistently been doing it over the last 20-25 years.

I believe, even today, with the launch with cars like the swift and the dzire (i strongly dislike the way it looks) MUL/suzuki still knows what the Indian consumer wants and is rewarded for it. True, that the same cars they sell here in India, may not be as 'loaded' as as the ones they sell in the European markets, but then someone needs to explain to me why the swift VXI outsells the ZXI by a decent margin. As a mass market, i believe Indians do not spend on many features, be it safety, performance or aesthetics, in the same manner that the western countries do. There may be loads of ppl on the forum who would have bought the top-end model of many cars which would include most safety features, but then the whole point is that we are an car enthusiast forum and are more aware and interested in our cars than the average car buyer.

[Trust_In_Thrust]

This thread is nowhere it was meant to be .Is it about safety of Indian cars ?Is it about Fiat Vs rest ? And for sure it is not about showing one is better than other !

Let it remain a healthy discussion as to what the original thread starter intended to do .

[SkyWalker]

I guess this thread is running in circles. No surprises - There were some similar threads on this a few years back.

Suzuki as a company is performing poorly in all markets - even in its parent Japan - that is a fact. And no surprises there - their products are no match for competition. That being said Maruti has capitalized on its strengths here - early mover advantage, and even sometimes diesels they got by fluke. We must admit as a company Maruti is quite successful.

We have Maruti lovers here, and maruti haters here. aaggoswami is a very vocal Maruti supporter. DCEite is another. I remember aaggoswami claiming once that he considers A* as the car of the year of 08. If you follow my post, its pretty clear that i am not so impressed by Maruti ( i am not a hater though). I guess none of us are going to change our views anytime soon - so anyone planning to wave a white flag and respect each others views?

[beejay]

Originally Posted by samsan02

Gansan, you are right. You and me know that we would need that extra fitting. Not a villager who doesn't know about cars much and the necessity of them, when he upgrades to one.

Apologies for going OT. What makes you think that a villager does not need a RVM?

[harry10]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

actually, I'm even fine with them making it a luxury. All Indian manufacturers are no different. But the fact that they are limiting supply, and whats worse, the dealers using this to dictate terms to customers is what irks me.

I had thought of buying a swift Vdi with abs last year. Went to showroom and was told - Sir its not available for next 8 months and we have also closed booking so if you want one you can leave the booking amount but don't expect delivery before 8 months atleast.

Needless to say i dropped the vdi from my list.
I also asked him why so much of a waiting list. He said its cos maruti is not able to get abs kits easily.

[beejay]

Originally Posted by harry10

I also asked him why so much of a waiting list. He said its cos maruti is not able to get abs kits easily.

So that s the same story across. I think the Swift/dezire waiting period is like crazy.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

So many people defending the SX4. Would these same people defend a Sedici Sedan with the same zeal if it were launched here ?

If Fiat offers similar VFM package + similar A.S & S., perhaps people will as its a SX4, which itself is based on extended Swift.
Fact is that Fiat does have its own network is a major negative point. Take the case of my city Vadodara, they dont have Fiat dealership. Ray of hope is ASPI, but that is in A'bad.

One negative image Fiat has created is by delaying tech transfer to Suzuki. Suzuki has helped Fiat in past as the 4X4 panda has Suzuki 4X4 system.

On similar note, would the people appricate GP launched under Suzuki badge ?

[Trust_In_Thrust]

@aagoswami :
Extended Swift : The data i have / know of says SX4 is not even a suzuki .It is a Fiat sedici as greenhorn said.

So you are saying Fiat is the culprit .Why should Fiat share its technologies with other companies.Suzuki should be happy/lucky it managed to get that Diesel motor indirectly.

Oh come on if Indian's accepted boxes like Wagon R , Ritz etc as good car designs from Maruti do you even have to think that with a Maruti badge Punto will not be beautiful.

I respect your view but this is too much .
Regards