[clevermax]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

The only edge they have is ride and handling, but this again not a very significant advantage, but enough to differentiate.

Please do not make statements like this. You can express your opinion but it need not be like these authentic statements.

You missed a point, for many, the looks and styling of GP & Linea are also a deciding factor. (Include me in the list, though that was not the only deciding factor.)

Originally Posted by sushanthr77

What does this Chassis Stiffness mean? Does it mean it is really really strong? And how do you measure this? Simply by riding on bad roads or tracks? How does a Stiff Chassis equate to additional safety? What about the crumple zone? Can you distinguish a car with a relatively weaker chassis and a hard suspension setup and a car with relatively stronger chassis with a soft suspension setup?

How come the exterior is not a parameter for build quality? Is the insulation used for sound damping also ignored? What about the underbody? Isn't the engine a part of the car?

What about all the other components that make up a car?

Rightly asked sushanthr77.

[Deep Blue]

Originally Posted by sidindica

OT, its not only Fiat but Hyundai's standards are also alarmingly low. Though the parts are available, it's the dealer attitude thats getting worse.
First, the dealer personnel refused me with a spare part.
Then on escalating the matter to Hyundai not once, not twice but thrice, I have not received any reply on the matter.
Hyundai is ran by a bunch of educated illiterate people I guess.

What is really required is a governing body similar to NHTSA (federal watchdog) which keeps an eye on the company and its dealers and works for the consumers. If there are delays/ problems/ complaints from consumers in getting poor quality A.S.S., the governing body should have a power to issue a stern warning to the manufacturer, failing which would lead in a lawsuit against it.
This is the only way where these guys can be taught a lesson. But unfortunately, don't expect this too soon.

Regulatory bodies in India are largely extortion agencies. You can bribe you way through most of them. I wish everybody in India would do their jobs atleast half the sincerity they are required to be done.

[YVES]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

It somehow befuddles me on the amount of members who wait to pounce and start FIAT bashing at every given instance. And the irony of the whole thing is that more than half the people who indulge in this FIAT bashing have never had a FIAT product in their life time. I wonder why we don't see the similar number of threads on TATA / M&M whose build quality is definitely one grade lower than FIAT.

Hmm.. So Fiat joins the Skoda's in terms of bashing here on A S S front..
cant compare M&M / Tata to Fiats in terms of refinement and quality.
These are notches below Fiat , Its cost factor where M&M / Tata score over Fiat. Thats it.

[.anshuman]

When you have already mentioned Mahindra, i can assure you owning a Scorpio in Gurgaon and Delhi is a horrible experience when discussing after sales support.

I am sorry if this is going too much offtopic, Gurgaon service center no longer accepts our Scorpio just because they could not solve 20+ problems listed by us, other service center in Delhi accepts the car but is equally unable to sort out the list of problems. Its PATHETIC. Starting a new thread soon regarding the same.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by sushanthr77

Dear aaggoswami, if everybody came up with their own definitions for words, then discussions are pointless!

If you read my earlier posts I am also trying to say similar thing. So by these standards, we haven't measured any car. So nobody can comment on build quality, right ?
So as per question you have asked, unless one has figures from laboratory, nobody can comment no build quality.

Also refer to other threads also where the word build quality is used without answering the questions you have asked.

About chassis stiffness, for monocoque I think ENCAP ratings are good indication. In case of monocoque construction, each and every structural member supports the member adjecent to it. This helps in energy absorption and dissipation ( away from passenger cell ). So here the ratings are a good indication.
If you have any better explanation for chassis stiffness or any other concept, do post here. It will help us all. Also do point out if something is wrong here.
Correct ( and update ) me if I am wrong here.

Originally Posted by finneyp

So please don't keep saying Plastic quality is Build quality, it just one of the parameters!
Maybe for you, but not for everyone!
For me, Fiat cars still offer a complete package, the service may not good enough, but I get more for the bucks and I enjoy driving their cars!
And, that is the most important factor for me!

I am against plastic quality = build quality and that is what I am trying to convey.
What I am posting is my opinion. If you are enjoying your car, what's better than that ? This is irrespective of manufacturer and car.

Originally Posted by clevermax

Please do not make statements like this. You can express your opinion but it need not be like these authentic statements.
You missed a point, for many, the looks and styling of GP & Linea are also a deciding factor. (Include me in the list, though that was not the only deciding factor.)
Rightly asked sushanthr77.

If somebody feels that my statements are authentic, I am sorry for that, but then it was entirely my thoughts. Nothing more.
Looks are subjective.

I am just trying to say that competition has raised the bar in every deaprtment, be is ride and handling or be it safety or space. Fiat has to do something about its service. With TATA dealerships they are suffering in form of customer dis-satisfaction.

An independent network will help much. GP and Linea are also falling behind when it comes to certain parameters like powertrains and the plastics used and how they have fixed/installed those plastic parts in interiors.

[StarVegabond]

Originally Posted by geeash

what can a common man do get a proper A.S.S?.

objectively speaking, there are lot of things a common man can do

1. Buy a good product from a well reputed company. Reputation means being consistant, predicably good.

2. Think from the mind (& not from the heart, because common man can not afford heart breaks), while making purchase decisions, calculate over all cost of ownership (including peace of mind, it is different for different person)

3. Consistant follow ups (provided common man has time for it), to get the issues resolved. Patience is the key, Dialogue is important, an ANGRY COMMON MAN in India will suffer more.


After Sales Experience of FIAT was inconsistant, it became worse after they partnered with Tata, because, there is no clear ownership for the service function, blames are always passed on from Dealer to Tata to FIAT India to FIAT Italy. I have experienced this being a FIAT Palio Owner.

Hence when i wanted to upgrade, i made the decision from my mind, and did not buy a Linea.
As a common man this was my last option.

Dear Dr. Ashwin,

I have been a subscriber to your thread since long, i feel pity for FIAT (and Tata), they are loosing one of the strong supporter and believer in thier products i.e. you. I do not know when this passing the blame will stop and real after sales experience be delivered to the customers.

do not loose hope, keep pushing the dealerships to make the things good.
i wish you all the success.

[pacman2881]

Originally Posted by YVES

Unfair to criticize Fiat / tata.
Its their new outing after they have restructured thier operations in europe.
The fact is they are providing value by selling latest quality build cars to Indian customers compared to korean and others.
So they had to cut initialy to gain foothold.
Indian customers are more price consious and thats success for Suzuki. Fiat is trying to emulate them , they will learn from their mistakes.

Latest quality compared to Koreans? It was Hyundai that brought in their latest models to India and woke up Maruti and others!
When a buyer pays such high price and chooses Fiat's car over competition should he be made to wait till they improve their service? Shouldn't this be the other way round- Improve the service and then start offering premium products?

[YVES]

Originally Posted by pacman2881

Latest quality compared to Koreans? It was Hyundai that brought in their latest models to India and woke up Maruti and others!

When a buyer pays such high price and chooses Fiat's car over competition should he be made to wait till they improve their service? Shouldn't this be the other way round- Improve the service and then start offering premium products?

Its the brand image which fetches premium , goes with almost all european car makers.
See how VW Beetle is priced around 20 Lacs.
Brand sells isnt it.
Hyundai is a brand in India as it has followed what suzuki did and has met with success.
European car makers will not fall into such volume games.

At the end one cannot compare Hyundai with Fiat.
If you are reffering to I20 , wait and see feedback after a year , its a new model , real test will be after a year.
Punto is a proven car and is a cash cow for Fiat in Europe.

I dont own a Punto either...

[FastLove]

My Linea has done close to 14000km now (in 7 months) and my description of the car is well beyond words. I am surprised by how the poor A.S.S. is being used by people to deride FIAT . The car is just amazing. Period.
People who debate on Build Quality bla bla bla have had no association with the car or any (Linea) owner or plain envious.
Even Geeash would agree on this as you can check his ownership thread. The problem is A.S.S. and i agree. I have my concerns there too. But, i get response to my problems. I get priority as a Linea customer. Competency has to improve though.
I got my bonnet bulge repaired & bonnet repainted yesterday (in warranty). Being very particular of the finish i have pointed lapses in the work which they have promised to attend whenever i wish.
I make noise & we should make noise when there are lapses but then FIAT is not the only manufacturer who has A.S.S issues. Iam sure other Manfrs. also would have sad customers . FIAT failure gets highlighted because of the recent past & Tata A.S.S.
I too wish that FIAT had an independent A.S.S. but then we dont live in a perfect world !

[clevermax]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

The edge in build quality is now lost. GP and Linea, both are not having good interiors. Have a look at GP's interior plastic and you will know.

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

I am against plastic quality = build quality and that is what I am trying to convey.

Contradictory... very contradictory. If there's an award for the most contradicting statements from someone within a thread, this is sure a nominee.

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

Fiat has to do something about its service. With TATA dealerships they are suffering in form of customer dis-satisfaction.

On a serious note, I agree with that. But then you can see this statement a 1000 times in threads all over t-bhp. Look how we end up saying the same thing again and again.

[Mevtec]

In my opinion TASS should be improved so that they can handle all the new Fiats.TASS is infested with inexperienced and irresponsible mechanics.Most of the troubles of my pre-V2 Indica was due to poor after sales service.

When someone says that he would buy a car irrespective of the after sales service he is either stupid or very rich(that he can change cars often)
If FIAT can have a separate service back up their cars should succeed.

But various initial niggles (TATA like) in a new product from an international automaker like FIAT is dissapointing.

"Experience is the best teacher,but to learn from experience is costly"

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by clevermax

Contradictory... very contradictory. If there's an award for the most contradicting statements from someone within a thread, this is sure a nominee.

This is why I love numbering system.

The edge in build quality is now lost. GP and Linea, both are not having good interiors. Have a look at GP's interior plastic and you will know.

1) Build quality edge is lost.
2) Interiors are not good.


2) I am pointing to pinpoint that interior fit and finish and quality of materials need to improve.

Two separate points. I request you to search many of my earlier posts where I have clearly marked that interior fit and finish is not " build quality ". One such thread was " SX4/Swift perceptions ".

I have used the plastic = not equal to overall build quality when Swift was called a weaker build car.

[sushanthr77]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

...About chassis stiffness, for monocoque I think ENCAP ratings are good indication...

Dear aaggoswami, here are the links for ENCAP:

Euro NCAP - For safer cars | Fiat
Euro NCAP - For safer cars | Hyundai
Euro NCAP - For safer cars | Suzuki

01. We see that not even a single Suzuki vehicle has an Adult Occupant rating of 5 stars!
02. 2 Hyundai vehicles have 5 star ratings (AO). [i20, i30]
03. 4 Fiats have 5 star rating (AO). [G Punto, 500, Croma, Bravo]

The latest cars A-Star gets 3 and Ritz 4 respectively. Swift - 4, SX4 - 4.

What can we conclude about build quality from the above? We can safely conclude that the latest offerings from Hyundai and Fiat are more safer than any Suzuki vehicles.

[Ravveendrra]

Is the poll for real? What exactly are the options? My reading of them somehow gave me the impression that all the options are saying only negative things about Fiat in India.

If someone wants to make a statement, they are welcome to make a statement. Stilted polls where all questions (options) propose only one answer or view are best left to marketing guys.

Surprising that no mention is made of Fiat First (I hope I have got the name right) a roadside repair and emergency service. Several people have used it and have given excellent reports about it. The helpline sends out a mechanic with all tools and required parts to the customer's location to fix the vehicle. The mechanic arrives within a reasonable time and fixes the car. Does this not count in a discussion on A.S.S.

I totally disagree with MileCruncher. Fiat has been the favourite target for bashing for a very long time now. Skoda managed to get ahead in the bashing sweepstakes only recently.

Cheers,

[tortoiseNhare]

Originally Posted by FastLove

I make noise & we should make noise when there are lapses but then FIAT is not the only manufacturer who has A.S.S issues.

I too wish that FIAT had an independent A.S.S. but then we dont live in a perfect world !

These would be exactly my words too. On the instance when I had to make some serious noise, the FIAPL took good care and I came out with a satisfactory *** from the TASC.

PS. I have refrained from voting in this poll.