[Trust_In_Thrust]

@NutsandBolts:
Well said.
Coming to the figures :
Car Power Torque
Ritz 85ps@6000rpm 113@4500rpm
Punto 1.4 90ps@6000rpm 115@4500rpm
Punto 1.2 68ps@6000rpm 96@2500rpm

It is very easily seen the torque figures of Punto 1.2 is at 2500rpm so very few gear changes and a amazing fuel efficiency. This is what is required in a city .
For highways peak torque is required at higher rpm .

Yes the ritz engine K12 is great ,higher ps/litre but 1.4 is a old engine so i do not find it a fair comparison .Also with 1.4 on the heavy punto people are getting more than 15 kmpl(even on Linea).

Did anyone compare Baleno 1.6 with Palio 1.6 ?

Maruti has always given engines which are free revving mostly but do we buy only engines or cars ?

Also i high tech engine requires expensive spares :-)

@CivicSense : Well Said.

I request all to look at the complete picture not at one pixel.

Also i think we all re deviating here from the thread topic so i am out.

[HammerHead]

If a difference of 5.56 ps/ton is all that makes Punto 1.4 a non performer and Swift a performance car then what will you call Swift after comparing it to Palio 1.6 100PS?

Here is the data from fiat-india.
Palio 1.6 100 PS and Kerb Weight = 1060KG which = 94.34 ps/ton

I do agree to the fact that all wish for bigger and powerful engines in Punto to make it a better car then the current one, same as me wishing for a "tank like feeling, well build, better rear legroom, rattle free, non-bumpy ride in a Swift"

I fail to understand why people take Maruti-Suzuki car's as a standard for performance? Is there a defined "Power to Weight" ratio that needs to be achieved to be a performance car?

I totally agree to Trust_In_Thrust's following statement.

So just saying A's 0-100kmph is better than B makes B a better car that does not work out .
What Punto is offering is best value for money including as a package along with that superb warranty .

[Daewood]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Power to weight. Swift ZXi v/s Punto 1.4*

Swift 1.2 - 85ps/ 1010kgs - 84.16 ps/ton.
Punto 1.4- 90ps/ 1145kgs - 78.60 ps/ton.

In a real life situation the difference is not much.

When you consider the weight of a car carrying a compact family,
say Son(40Kg), Mother(60 Kg), Father(80kg), Grandmother(65kg), Grandfather(75kg) and 35 kgs in the boot

Swift 1.2 - 85ps/ 1365kgs - 62 ps/ton.
Punto 1.4- 90ps/ 1500kgs - 60 ps/ton.

[nurni76]

Originally Posted by NutsNBolts

^Well sir, the question was not which car "feels" less lethargic to drive but about a statement that engine A is better than engine B. I can understand the dynamics involved in driveability of a car, but how does it make a particular engine bad, I fail to understand. As far as efficiency is concerned, till the time we do not have authentic figures, why berate anything? You are entitled to your view and me to mine, but please do backup your views with figures if you would like your view to be influencing mine.

Ok. I have no intention of influencing you or for that matter anyone as I dont get anything from any car manufacturer to influence somebody. I am here to share my views and I will stick to it as they are based on my experience. Now since you asked, I am posting some figures for comparison. However, I dont have all the figures. Also if anyone has access to the missing figures please update the same. The figures are from ACI.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

The Fiat 1.4 on an Alto will be faster than the Swift or the Ritz. Does it then qualify the 1.4 to be a better engine? I understand that the Punto needs a bigger engine, and that is not because the 1.4 is bad, but because the Punto is heavy.

yeah and if 1.2 K series is put on Alto, it would be faster than the Alto with 1.4 Fiat engine. There is no end to that. Look at a car for what is and not what it could have been. If Punto is heavy, that is Punto's problem. When you talk about Swift you talk about build quality. I could also argue that if swift was heavier, it would be as good as Punto in interms of build quality. But it is not so. Each car is different and for the Punto, 1.4 is not good. In fact what 1.4 is doing a puny 1.2 is doing more than that in Swift.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by nurni76

yeah and if 1.2 K series is put on Alto, it would be faster than the Alto with 1.4 Fiat engine. There is no end to that. Look at a car for what is and not what it could have been. If Punto is heavy, that is Punto's problem. When you talk about Swift you talk about build quality. I could also argue that if swift was heavier, it would be as good as Punto in interms of build quality. But it is not so. Each car is different and for the Punto, 1.4 is not good. In fact what 1.4 is doing a puny 1.2 is doing more than that in Swift.

I thought we were comparing the engines.

And I am pretty sure that the Punto 1.4 would perform better than the Suzuki 1.2 if they are put in the same car. Suzuki's 85PS would not be able to match the Fiat 1.4's 90PS. The 1.4 has the CC advantage, which the 1.2 will not be able to beat.

Now, talking about abilities:

Suzuki's 1197 cc makes 85PS = 71 PS/liter
Fiat's 1368 cc makes 95PS * = 69.5 PS/liter

Is that a lot of difference?

Everybody agrees here that the 1.2 K series is a good engine, but that does not mean that all other engines are trash. It is OK to be a fan of what you like, but that should not let you lose objectivity.

* it is de-tuned to 90PS in India

[nurni76]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

I thought we were comparing the engines.

And I am pretty sure that the Punto 1.4 would perform better than the Suzuki 1.2 if they are put in the same car. Suzuki's 85PS would not be able to match the Fiat 1.4's 90PS. The 1.4 has the CC advantage, which the 1.2 will not be able to beat.

Now, talking about abilities:

Suzuki's 1197 cc makes 85PS = 71 PS/liter
Fiat's 1368 cc makes 95PS * = 69.5 PS/liter

Is that a lot of difference?

Everybody agrees here that the 1.2 K series is a good engine, but that does not mean that all other engines are trash. It is OK to be a fan of what you like, but that should not let you lose objectivity.

* it is de-tuned to 90PS in India

Nobody said 1.4 is a bad engine. An engine is not in isolation. It will always be talked about in a vehicle. So for the Fiat Punto, 1.4 engine will not suffice in comparison to Swift. That is the discussion. And as you have pointed out it KSeries has a better Power to CC ratio (though you have conveniently taken the higher PS figure. If you consider the engine as is in India the difference is 5 Ps/Ltr 66 vs 71 PS/ltr , which is significant). So all I am saying is that K series engine is better than 1.4 engine of Punto (90ps) in India. I know there are a number of Fiat Fans in this forum, but it is time to accept the superiority of K series engine.

[finneyp]

Originally Posted by nurni76

So for the Fiat Punto, 1.4 engine will not suffice in comparison to Swift.

I am tired of hearing such blanket statements without any facts & figures!

And as you have pointed out it KSeries has a better Power to CC ratio

It is not the 'Kseries engine' that has better power-to-weight ratio, but the car Swift.

So all I am saying is that K series engine is better than 1.4 engine of Punto (90ps) in India.

How can a 1.2 engine better than 1.4 engine?
It is another fact than on power-to-weight ratio, Swift maybe better than Punto.

[nurni76]

Originally Posted by finneyp

I am tired of hearing such blanket statements without any facts & figures!
It is not the 'Kseries engine' that has better power-to-weight ratio, but the car Swift.

How can a 1.2 engine better than 1.4 engine?
It is another fact than on power-to-weight ratio, Swift maybe better than Punto.

Pls read my statement properly before you comment. I have said power to CC (i.e. PS/Ltr) ratio and not weight.

[NutsNBolts]

Originally Posted by nurni76

I am here to share my views and I will stick to it as they are based on my experience.

Now since you asked, I am posting some figures for comparison. However, I dont have all the figures. Also if anyone has access to the missing figures please update the same. The figures are from ACI.

Good on you nurni. Where do these figures say 1.2 is better than 1.4?

Originally Posted by nurni76

Nobody said 1.4 is a bad engine. An engine is not in isolation. It will always be talked about in a vehicle. So for the Fiat Punto, 1.4 engine will not suffice in comparison to Swift.

Originally Posted by nurni76

The Punto 1.4 engine itself is no match to the Swift K series leave alone the 1.2. I think Fiat should bring in the 1.4 TJet in the Punto to compete with Swift..... I know there are a number of Fiat Fans in this forum, but it is time to accept the superiority of K series engine.

You said it in your statements sir, and that's why the whole discussion. And yet you say, add turbo to the same stupid engine and it becomes worthy of becoming somewhat of a competition.

Just like Fiat fans, there are many Maruti fans on the forum and it is time to stop rubbishing a product for what it is not.

[Technocrat]

Note From Support Team - Folks, lets restrict the discussion to Price hike of Linea & Punto.

[finneyp]

Originally Posted by nurni76

I have said power to CC (i.e. PS/Ltr) ratio and not weight.

Oh, this power-to-CC thing is new to me!
What matters is the total power output, and in that Punto (90 PS) scores ahead of Swift (85 PS).
And as I said earlier taking Power-to-weight ratio into account, Swift maybe better than Punto, but you need to consider all the other dynamics affecting the drivebility of a car!

[nurni76]

Originally Posted by NutsNBolts

Good on you nurni. Where do these figures say 1.2 is better than 1.4?

You said it in your statements sir, and that's why the whole discussion. And yet you say, add turbo to the same stupid engine and it becomes worthy of becoming somewhat of a competition.

Just like Fiat fans, there are many Maruti fans on the forum and it is time to stop rubbishing a product for what it is not.

pls see the comparison between the PS/Ltr figures posted by me for the answer. Also the whole argument was that Punto with the 1.4 is no match to the Swift 1.2 leave alone the 1.2 L Punto. It never was a comparison of the engines per se and since you all took it that way, it ended being that way. And to clarify nobody rubbished any product but only talked of the relative superiority of one over the other

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Guys, this is going way off topic. May as well result in another locked thread.

I don't think we can 'measure' which engine is better. So, the discussions wont have much results, other than heated attacks, and mod infractions!

(Guys, I'm not blaming anyone, because I was also part of discussions earlier on!)

Originally Posted by finneyp

Oh, this power-to-CC thing is new to me!

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-cc-ratio.html

[amoghchaphalkar]

Originally Posted by Technocrat

Note From Support Team - Folks, lets restrict the discussion to Price hike of Linea & Punto.

Thank you Techno

@ all : I am told that the "new" Punto (2010 model with the Linea spec engine) will be in showrooms in April.

Anyone has any updates about this ?