[Traxter]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

No we don't. We are surprisingly blessed in terms of water resources with so many rivers and rain.

Seriously do you believe this? You do not have to listen to me, please read about serious water issues plaguing the country from any reliable source you feel like.

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by Traxter

I am talking about rules framed by govt. which in our country is democratically elected. Hopefully they will fix limits that are sensible and reasonable.

If not we protest.

An admirable course of action but there's absoutely no need for regulation at the moment in India. When we start predicting shortages that is an agreeable course. Until then, there's no need.

Originally Posted by Traxter

As I said, err on side of caution, use commonsense and think of others. That's all

Now, that sounds much better. I've nothing against that sentiment. In fact, it is one that should be encouraged. But telling everyone else how much water they should use to wash their cars or to shower and so on is what I find wrong.

[Traxter]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

But telling everyone else how much water they should use to wash their cars or to shower and so on is what I find wrong.

I dont live in Mumbai, but I heard govt is using Sachin Tendulkar to tell everyone to save water, not shower and use buckets of water...perhaps they are fools and Sachin is also one to waste his time doing this...you should tell them to stop bothering. Assure them that India has lots of water and there is no need to worry...

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by GTO

Some car owners from my lane were in for a rude shock on Saturday morning.
BMC's "clean up marshalls" ...fined them Rs. 1,000 (with receipt)

This must be the weirdest of weird rules in any governmental body's inventory. To my mind, the rule translates as CLEANING = LITTERING. Would the BMC (or the MC of any other city) rather have dusty, muddy cars on its roads?

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

I can't really agree that dust/mud which is what most cars are covered with counts as litter.

I agree. In countries where car washing restrictions do apply due to water scarcity, the least the authorities allow is to clean cars with a bucketful of water - which our car wash guys do anyway. The other issue is about the runoff water, which is not allowed to mix into storm-water drains, because this water is not treated before discharging into water bodies.

When washing vehicles at home, a sump pump can be placed in the storm drain where the wash water flows. The pump should pump the wash water through a hose to the sanitary sewer. Another alternative is to wash the car on a pervious surface such as a lawn or vegetated area so the wash water can soak into the ground, where pollutants are filtered out.
Source: http://www.ci.shelton.wa.us/public_w...-09Shelton.doc

Originally Posted by Traxter

This rule should apply in every city. There should be MUCH bigger fine for washing cars with hoses, especially in cities with water shortage. Even jail or seizure and destruction of car is appropriate.

You can't be serious...

If washing cars with hoses = wastage of water, what about washing clothes? Since washing clothes in a washing machine (which I presume most of the members on this forum do) = wastage of water, would that result in immediate seizure and destruction of our clothes? Would the jail term happen before or after this?

I do hope the ongoing battle does not stray into personal space as it is doing frequently.

[IronH4WK]

guys, if you really reflect on it, what Traxter is saying holds water (so to speak).

OT: how many of us willingly and knowingly break rules? my guess is all of us, but the degree does vary. for example, i would never knowingly enter a one-way street, but i would park in a no parking zone to quickly get medicines.

like Traxter mentioned, people should be fined for parking on the roads (using it like their family property) and i kinda agree with that because on a daily basis i'm bearing the brunt of idiots who irresponsibly park their vehicles for shopping or dining and leave (sometimes blocking the whole street) and causing much distress to the folks to live on that street.

a few weeks back a guy parks his swift smack in the middle and the entrance of our lane and goes shopping and everybody is stuck for hours (we've apartments on that street) coz nobody can move out.

how many of you know that honking near educational institutions, places of worship and hospitals is against the law? not many i suppose, or they know and deliberately don't follow them (seem 'em morons blaring their horns in front of Manipal hospital).

so it kinda boils down to what values and ethics we live by. us Indians have a very bad habit of taking things for granted - a very good example - the Swift that blocked our street. do you know what his response was when he was confronted? he said "i'm taking it out now na, what's your problem?" i got a similar response from a biker whom i blocked since he was coming on the wrong side on a one-way street. what have we become? are we responsible citizens or just lawless people doing whatever we feel like? in my opinion, its the latter :(

people don't fully realise the problem until it bites them in the arse. don't be fooled that the this planet is gonna be around forever - its not and i believe science has proven that fact. the rivers and streams that we say are in abundance now ain't gonna be around at the rate we're screwing the environment.

every problem has a solution, we just have to be strong and stay the course.

anyways, lot of philosophy for one post. over n out.

@Traxter: i understand your POV

[Traxter]

We are not just turning into a lawless state like Rwanda, in many respects, we already are. That's how Salmans, Madhu Kodas and Rathores get away. We are already on a slippery slope of anarchy, to use McLaren's oft repeated word. When we cross a certain unknown line in the sand, we will genuinely enter goonda-era where the biggest losers are going to be folks like us - the educated middle class neo-rich. Believe me. The rich will protect themselves by and large other than some casualties, the poor have nothing to lose.

The examples given by Iron4Hawk are appropriate. Taking the Swift example he gave, one day some goonda who is affected (not a nice folk like Iron4Hawk) is going to burn that car down or smash it and justify it to nobody because he need not as he is a dada. Who is more right? Jiski lati uski bains society?

The washing machine example used is yet another example of too-clever-by-half arguments we use to break laws if they exist and invent excuses for irresponsible behaviour where they dont. If there is a water shortage in our city (we dont have 24 hr water supply in ANY city, people are going on riots for water in Bangalore etc.), using washing m/c is actually bad but then washing itself is a necessity, you cannot wear stinking clothes. Car hosing is not. That is why countries usually dont restrict washing clothes even in drought.

Obviously there is subjectivity in what constitutes waste of water and what is not. There is subjectivity in every law or norm. Why is 18 years considered major, why not 18.5 or 17.5? That is no excuse to indulge in socially wrong conduct. Govt can come out with guidelines, but they can only be guidelines. In our country they can never be policed. Perhaps govt. can set target for each individual and leave it to him/her to decide whether to wash car with hose and clothes with bucket or the other way around.

Even if govt were to set guidelines, we will deal with it with the same contempt and disregard as we do with every other rule. And invent clever excuses. As pointed out, are we following parking rules, pollution check rules, honking rules and so on?

Enough said.

[sohail99]

Originally Posted by sbraj

You mean, something similar to dry cleaning?
Waterless car wash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Have you used it? How effective? Is it polluting to the environment?

Yea! I have used it and its really effective if the car is mildly dirty!

+ its fast too! + no water required

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

...the least the authorities allow is to clean cars with a bucketful of water

You can't be serious...

seizure and destruction

Originally Posted by Traxter

The washing machine example used is yet another example of too-clever-by-half arguments...

@ Traxter: I am very happy there are people like you who wish to make this world a better place to live in - we all want it that way too. However, I think your arguments are fallacious and to this thread, because:

Fact: BMC is fining people for washing cars on the road.
Fact: BMC is not fining them for parking these cars on the road.
Fact: BMC is not fining people for washing cars, even with hoses, inside their own compounds.
Interpretation: BMC is not concerned about water conservation or wrongful parking, which are the issues being heatedly discussed here. They are more concerned about raising revenue through illogical fines.

Your interpretation: You want cars that are washed with hoses to be seized and destroyed, and their owners jailed.
Your interpretation: You say we not law-abiding citizens, and break laws if they exist and invent excuses for irresponsible behaviour where they don't.

I find your posts to be increasingly personal and accusatory in their tone, with the presumption that others' views do not have any value. Once again, all I can say is

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

I do hope the ongoing battle does not stray into personal space as it is doing frequently.

[McLaren Rulez]

Traxter seems bent on imposing his living style on everyone else. Hosing a car is wrong, he says? Why? Because he washes his car with a bucket. Big deal!

In a feat of intelligence I did not expect, he admits to the subjectivity of what is water usage and wastage. The precise point which makes hosing a car perfectly acceptable. Or using a shower instead of a bucket to bathe acceptable. The ridiculousness increases when he calls for those who hose their cars to be jailed and the cars, destroyed. Way to go man! Stand for elections and you'll have my vote...NOT.

If the government decides that the water usage is more than what water we have, they will impose their restrictions. If there's a severe drought, they will impose restrictions. Restrictions that law abiding people will be more than happy to obey. Until then, no one has the right to tell his neighbour that he's using more water than he needs. You can cut down your water usage to the best of your ability. Don't expect the rest of the world to do the same.

And yes, as SS has mentioned, this is widly off topic now. The original fine is more or less accepted as illogical.

[vasudeva]

if it was Delhi, one could have been forced by the traffic cops to escape with a Rs. 100-200 bribe.

[sbraj]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Fact: BMC is fining people for washing cars on the road.
Fact: BMC is not fining them for parking these cars on the road.
Fact: BMC is not fining people for washing cars, even with hoses, inside their own compounds.
Interpretation: BMC is not concerned about water conservation or wrongful parking, which are the issues being heatedly discussed here. They are more concerned about raising revenue through illogical fines.

You said it.

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

And yes, as SS has mentioned, this is widly off topic now.

Yes, let us discuss issues here, and not personalities.

[mjothi]

Good. Let the govt do something like this for revenue and bring some discipline here.

It may hurt initially, but I see so many cab guys parking their car all through our streets and we have no where to go.

They only have a small office for logistics and entire surrounding is their parking lot.

This will also make apartments with Parking a standard.

[Exhaust_Note]

Originally Posted by Traxter

Actually we need a points system like in Singapore where you accumulate 24 (or so) points in a year, you lose driving license for a while

traxter, no offence but the reprimand mentioned had me in splits. We Indians do not really care 2 hoots about losing driving license! Because, forst we can drive without one, and second, we can very easily acquire another, then another and so on......

[Traxter]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Fact: BMC is fining people for washing cars on the road.
Fact: BMC is not fining them for parking these cars on the road.
Fact: BMC is not fining people for washing cars, even with hoses, inside their own compounds.

You are right.

But it is about time they (and other cities, particularly drought prone ones) started imposing water usage restrictions.
And charging for parking on road side.
And force apartments to build with parking lots for each flat - like in advanced societies.

But we should not wait for such restrictions to come first. If such restrictions are not in place, we should lobby FOR them, not against them.

Do we wait for newspapers to show images of water wastage by 'filthy rich', leftist groups or NGOs to take up the struggle, villagers without water to raid cities with riots and demonstrations etc...?

Gentlemen, let us be proactive..

Let us wash with bucket of water, not a hose
Let us bathe in bucket of water, not use shower...I have already banned this at home, my sons are now used to it.
Let us use western toilets that are dual flush and water saving or Indian style toilets.
Let us harvest rain water where we can

If you feel these are unreasonable restrictions, do what you want...but don't expect me or any caring person to respect you for your actions.

We owe it to our children if not ourselves.

AMEN...

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by Traxter

Even if govt were to set guidelines, we will deal with it with the same contempt and disregard as we do with every other rule. And invent clever excuses. As pointed out, are we following parking rules, pollution check rules, honking rules and so on?

I would expect that when rules are enforced or implemented, they apply equally to all, and also adhered to equally.

The people who made this rule may have decided to take on a similar example as shown by the municipal authorities in a city like Dubai where washing your car on the street is not allowed. However, if the same car is washed inside a compound, then there is no issue? Why? Is it because the former litters the street?

For starters if the roads were clean enough to justify such an implementation, it would make sense. The same authorities whose job is to ensure the roads are kept clean dont perform their duties, and then they say water dirties the street. Water evaporates leaving behind nothing, but i dont see general litter evaporating into thin air.

EDIT :

Originally Posted by Traxter

Gentlemen, let us be proactive..

Let us wash with bucket of water, not a hose
Let us bathe in bucket of water, not use shower...I have already banned this at home, my sons are now used to it.
Let us use western toilets that are dual flush and water saving or Indian style toilets.
Let us harvest rain water where we can

If you feel these are unreasonable restrictions, do what you want...but don't expect me or any caring person to respect you for your actions.

We owe it to our children if not ourselves.

These are reasonable, and just. I truly stand by them, and also implement the same at home. However, saying one shouldnt wash a car on the street is unreasonable and unfair, considering not everyone has a covered parking space.