[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Some buy Marutis and Hyundais and secretly wishes that they could buy a Honda

Tell me you are kidding. All this time, your points were 'mostly' logical, but with this 1 line, you lost it. I have seen the same line used by another Honda fan on another Honda thread (about reliability IIRC) - he tried his best to make the point that Honda was God's gift to carkind and when he ran out of logical arguments, his final weapon was - "you guys are saying this because you can't afford a Honda". Hey its a Honda, not a Merc we are discussing here.

Agreed that a Honda is priced more than its peers, but do you really think the gap is that unbridgeable for buyers in that segment ? The SX4-Zxi MT-Leather costs 8L, while the comparable ANHC-S MT costs 8.76L (the ANHC-E is only 8.3L).

Do you really think a person who can afford 8L would find it tough to roll out another 30K or even 1-lakh ? Agree that there maybe a small %age buyers who would have already stretched their budget to 8L and another lakh might be tough for them. But I think atleast 75% can easily afford the extra 1lakh and if they did not go for the Honda, it would have been for other valid reasons than affordability.

Some SX4 buyers might wish they could get a Corolla or Civic or Accord, but something in the same segment ? Not really. Let us not bring petty things like affordability into a serious discussion. Especially on the net, where you really don't know almost anything about the other party, least of all his affordability.

Originally Posted by car-dent

i guess this thread is going so long because in their hearts everyone likes the car but would want the prices to be lower.

Don't know about others, but I like the Jazz and other than the wrong pricing, I don't see anything else wrong in that car.

P.S. : All prices ex-showroom Chennai.

[sriramv.iyer]

From today's zigwheels (Bangalore)

"The Honda Jazz has managed to sound off all the right notes in India despite the initial outcry of its steep pricing. It has proved that quality does prevail over quantity and the Jazz has gone on to do the numbers that Honda always envisioned for this premium Hatchback (some one help me please...)

Commemorating this fact is the introduction of 'Select Edition' Honda Jazz.

[snip]

As competition follows suit and India gets a new segment of premium hot hatches, the current flavor remains the Jazz!"

All hail Mr. Vikram Gour who drafted the column above. Read the full version for more laughs.

The discussions were getting serious and I thought I could help in adding some humor to the thread.

--------

I really hoped for the same treatment when City was launched. I think the hatch buyers are more value conscious than sedan buyers.

Probably people would have bought Jazz if there was no i20. (I seriously don't think Punto can compete with Jazz - This comes from a person who was planning to sleep outside Fiat showroom (with a cheque) the night earlier when Punto was launched. Space inside, engine, interiors were not up to my expectations and hence I did not pick up the car)

It is not a question of sour grapes for all. Jazz GENUINELY does not bring value to the table for the money it takes. People with some specific needs may find value, but not the majority.

There is nothing in for the enthusiasts too! It just feels like an overpriced family car. I'd take a Linea petrol E+ over Jazz anyday.

I don't have ANY respect for Honda management - Autocar published that Honda City anniversary edition (NHC) was about to be launched. Next month the MD of Honda India wrote a letter to Autocar (that was published) denying launch of any new variant. The new variant was launched 2 months later. I believe they did not have any ethics to do this. (at least they could have kept their mouth shut)

When I went to check out Honda Civic when it was launched (was quite eager to pay the 1L booking amount (then) but the day was not auspicious) - I did not get even a follow up call from Honda dealer!!

IMO Jazz suffers the fate it deserves. I really hope market does the same to Swift VDi (with Ford Figo, Vista QJD) and Swift Dzire (with Manza).

[supremeBaleno]

@sriram, just now read the article in zigwheels (Chennai) - hilarious to say the least.

[sydras]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Hondas brand strength is pretty much waning. Their cars used to be well engineered, VFM cars with the right dose of driver appeal. The games moved on and most manufacturers have caught up if not overtaken Honda already. A decade ago their model porfolio used to have names like Prelude, CRX, Integra, Civic/Accord Type Rs, NSX, S2000 etc..
Today barring the Type R (which is porky and heavy compared to earlier gens. and way underpowered compared to the Focus RS, Megane Rsport, Golf GTi, heck even the Mazda 3 hot version) none of the Hondas really posses this. There are more desirable Hyundais than Hondas now. Today Honda is pretty much like the regular run of the mill big name car makers but more expensive.

Agree. Folks overseas tell me that hyundais have really become popular and provide much better options as opposed to Honda. I had a look at some of the honda models slated for sale abroad and truth be told, they were so uninspiring in the looks dept. Some of them looked like plain boxes. We in India have been lucky so far as far as looks of the models launched are concerned.

Originally Posted by car-dent

i guess we should not bash honda for its policies /prices/etc too much.
i guess this thread is going so long because in their hearts everyone likes the car but would want the prices to be lower.

Looks like it. Personally I would still consider the i20 with options after already seeing and taking several rides in my colleague's Jazz but I guess many would give in to the Jazz for the perceived quality of a Honda. How the Honda brand will suffer with reduced pricing is anyone's guess. Nothing can be said for sure.

[sbraj]

Originally Posted by sriramv.iyer

All hail Mr. Vikram Gour who drafted the column above.

Now that is what I call 'Creative Writing'.

[ramzsys]

I may be going offtopic here, but can anyone give the definition of a premium hatch? I mean what makes Jazz to be branded as a premium hatch? Or what features added to it makes it a premium hatch, so that this thread becomes redundant?

[PYSO]

Originally Posted by ramzsys

I may be going offtopic here, but can anyone give the definition of a premium hatch? I mean what makes Jazz to be branded as a premium hatch? Or what features added to it makes it a premium hatch, so that this thread becomes redundant?

There may be many way of answering this.. Here is my take

A segment (ULTRA-BUDGET segment)
------------------------------------
Nano, 800, Alto
Cost of buying, owning, maintaining must be ultra-low
Customer is ultra-cost conscious (Only ulta-low-cost matters; value, aspirations, prestige dont matter)

A+ segment (BUDGET segment)
------------------------------
Estilo, Santro, WagonR, i10 1.1
Cost of buying, owning, maintaining must be low
Customer is cost conscious (Cost comes first, Value comes a distant second, aspirations dont matter, prestige dont matter)

B segment (VALUE+BUDGET segment)
-----------------------------------
Swift, Punto 1.2, i10 1.2, figo
Higher cost of buying, owning, maintaining should be justified by the value that the car brings
Customer is value conscious (cost matters, value matters, aspirations dont matter, prestige dont matter)

B+ segment (VALUE+ASPIRATIONS segment)
-------------------------------------------
Punto 1.4, Polo, i20, Jazz
Customers willing to pay unusually high amount for a hatchback, in return for excellent value and meeting aspirations and having social prestige
Customer is VFM focussed, with aspirations and social prestige coming a close second (cost matters much lesser as aspirations/prestige takes over in this segment, value matters very much)

C segment (ASPIRATIONS+VALUE segment)
-----------------------------------
SX4, ANHC, Verna
Customers are social status / prestige focussed with VFM coming a distant second. Cost is hardly an issue.


C+ segment (ASPIRATIONS + LUXURY segment)
--------------------------------------------
Civic, Corolla

D-segment (LUXURY segment)
-----------------------------
Accord, Camry, Superb

E-segment (ULTRA-LUXURY / KING CLASS)
----------------------------------------
Mercs, BMWs, Audi


Herein lies the main problem with Jazz pricing - It is a B+ segment car, priced like a C segment car. What I mean is --->

C-segment = Aspirations/Prestige is First; VFM is second
B+ segment = VFM is first; Aspirations/Prestige is second


PS: I am not bashing Honda cars in my posts so far. Honda cars are really good cars. I am only bashing Honda management for their attitude towards Indian auto market (which I would consider as 'snobbish'). I will post some ideas about how Jazz can be redeemed from its current position. But I will have to get another break at my work, before I can do that.

[pjbiju]

I think Honda's initial target of 2000 Jazz/month was a typo. Their target was perhaps 200 Jazz/month. And they are exceeding their expectations. So the Special Edition to celebrate this success. They might soon stop the production of Jazz to make it even more exclusive and elusive - a collector's item.

Grow up Honda! Such a lovely car with such a horrible pricing in such a price sensitive market. My friend liket it a lot, but then went for an i20 - more car for less cash.

-Biju

[blackasta]

@pyso

great post! really summed up the feelings.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Tell me you are kidding. All this time, your points were 'mostly' logical, but with this 1 line, you lost it. I have seen the same line used by another Honda fan on another Honda thread (about reliability IIRC) - he tried his best to make the point that Honda was God's gift to carkind and when he ran out of logical arguments, his final weapon was - "you guys are saying this because you can't afford a Honda".

My apologies for the way it ended up sounding. I did not mean that all Maruti and Hyundai owners aspire to buy a Honda. I said "some". And what I meant by that is "among Maruti and Hyundai owners, there are some who aspire to buy a Honda, but can't afford it. Now, let me explain a bit more further. Most of the Maruti/Hyundai buyers are on a budget and can't afford a Honda or a Toyota which is available only in higher segments. But the moment, they have 10L to spare, they rarely go for a SX4 or a Verna, but would rather look at the Honda City.

This is where the dissapointment came via the Jazz. When Honda announced the Jazz, people saw an "affordable" Honda coming along. They hoped that Jazz would cost max 1L more than the current favourite (Swift), and had their wallets ready. Honda, as usual overpriced it (like the ANHC), and that went beyond a normal price that somebody would pay for a hatch. And even if somebody went to the showroom with 8L hoping to buy the cheapest available "H" car, they ended up borrowing another lakh and buying the "H" car with the boot (ANHC).

Don't know about others, but I like the Jazz and other than the wrong pricing, I don't see anything else wrong in that car.

It is funny, but I am quite the opposite of you. I don't like the Jazz, but don't see anything wrong in the way Honda is pricing it.

[gkoneti]

hi

I have read in March '10 Autocar saying that on every Polo made by VW, it is loosing about Rs. 83000. If this is true, then VW might be cross subsidizing with the diesel variants where it could make some money. And since Honda does not have diesel variants, it is not able to price Jazz attractively ???

And does the same cross subsidizing principle applies to i20 where its diesels are highly priced and petrol versions are though premium but reasonable ???

Just some thoughts.

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by ramzsys

I may be going offtopic here, but can anyone give the definition of a premium hatch? I mean what makes Jazz to be branded as a premium hatch? Or what features added to it makes it a premium hatch, so that this thread becomes redundant?

This is totally dependant on the individual. Some people want the best quality of plastics, etc and don't mind not having the features (ACC, steering controls, height adjust, etc). Then there are some (like me) who really don't mind the not so good plastics (unless its really bad) and just love the features that usually come only in more expensive cars. As long as the car is built well its fine with me. I don't expect parts to fall off after paying around 6L for my car..!

But the Jazz is overprized however one looks at it..! Period..!
I was reading in this thread where some members have mentioned that Honda should increase localisation for the Jazz. In the feb sales thread I came across this
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attach...a_feb-2010.pdf
Localisation for the Jazz is the highest among all the models Honda offers in India

[PYSO]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

And even if somebody went to the showroom with 8L hoping to buy the cheapest available "H" car, they ended up borrowing another lakh and buying the "H" car with the boot (ANHC).

If most prospective Jazz customers were finally ending up buying ANHC, then it must be a good thing for Honda, isnt it? In which case, why the recently launch of Special addition of Honda Jazz (which if successful, might end up hurting ANHC sales)?

Select Edition Honda Jazz launched

And another question --> If most prospective Jazz customers were ending up buying ANHC, then why did Honda reintroduce the ANHC EMT base version a month or so ago?

Honda Siel relaunches the base version of City midsize sedan -WheelsUnplugged Automobile Industry News

I suspect most prospective Jazz customers did not end up buying ANHC and that is why the relaunch of ANHC EMT (a desperate move, coming as it does within less than a year of stopping sales of EMT)

So, what do we conclude from all this? That poor Jazz sales are not due to customers opting for ANHC after seeing both at the showroom.

Agree?

[sidindica]

You can see my expressions after I had a talk with one Mr. Sumit, who works for dealer development, Honda.

• the new small car priced below 5 lakhs coming this December with expected 1.0L 4 pot Vtec motor.
• not much concerned about the jazz at the moment, and after the small car is launched, plans to increase localization and then reposition it.
• thinks that jazz is for "premium people" and not for any "ordinary" class.
• I then pretty much lambasted him on how you killed a competitive product with insane pricing.
• He promised me that the new small car will be extremely competitively priced and claimed to "kill the ethios".

And here's how I reacted...felt pretty pissed off..god save Honda.

[narayan]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

This is where the dissapointment came via the Jazz. When Honda announced the Jazz, people saw an "affordable" Honda coming along. They hoped that Jazz would cost max 1L more than the current favourite (Swift), and had their wallets ready. .

let me also jump into this discussion

what made you think everyone was expecting a 1 lakh premium over the swift ? anyway i personally have a love - hate relationship with HONDA. i hate them for their A.S.S. and love them for their cars.

the JAZZ is over priced but i do feel personally that there is more to it than merely 1 lakh over the swift.

coming to the thread topic - what can HONDA do now

I think what Honda WILL do is to just allow the sales to be at what levels they are and not reduce prices at all probably wait for the market to reach a stage where such prices would be acceptable. at that time,they might take a call to either spec it better or put a better engine and sell at similar prices.

P.S. - i am not suggesting Honda do the above but in all probability that is what they will do