[Gilead]

Originally Posted by sidindica

You can see my expressions after I had a talk with one Mr. Sumit, who works for dealer development, Honda.

• the new small car priced below 5 lakhs coming this December with expected 1.0L 4 pot Vtec motor.

Below 5 lacs? Will there be an actual car surrounding the engine? Please ask them not to do a Logan on us.

• not much concerned about the jazz at the moment, and after the small car is launched, plans to increase localization and then reposition it.

There goes the re-sale value of the few thousand units that sold. But re-positioning it at a lower level is welcome. But what if they re-position it even higher.

• He promised me that the new small car will be extremely competitively priced and claimed to "kill the ethios".

I predict that if Honda and Toyota launch Logan like 'small' cars here, their sales will go the Logan way as well. From whatever pics I have seen of the Etios, it is just another Logan.

[PYSO]

Originally Posted by narayan

what can HONDA do now

I think what Honda WILL do is to just allow the sales to be at what levels they are and not reduce prices at all probably wait for the market to reach a stage where such prices would be acceptable. at that time,they might take a call to either spec it better or put a better engine and sell at similar prices.

Honda might do this, but it will be suicidal for Jazz.

Let me explain why I think so.

1) As incomes rise, people will be willing to pay more and more for a premium hatchback. I think it will take at least 3 years (probably 5 years) for incomes to rise to a point where lots of people will think the current price of Jazz is a good deal!!!

2) Even if I had loads of money and I am willing to buy Jazz for 8 or 9 lakhs, I wouldn't buy it because I have various fears related to Jazz -- Will it go out of production soon? Will spare prices be very high, due to the very low sales? Will spares be available if Jazz goes out of production? Will resale value crash due to the unpopularity of the car? All these fears would be multiplied if I see Honda's inaction in the face of rapidly falling sales (indicating that Honda is not committed to their Jazz product).

3) Too many competing products (Polo, Etios, etc) coming up; which will make it even more difficult to make customers to buy Jazz at the current prices.

If Honda indeed does this -- then it means the end of Jazz and we can expect the launch of a 1.0 litre Honda small car as Sidindica has posted above.

PS: Just realised that I became a BHPian with my previous post in this discussion

[PYSO]

Originally Posted by sidindica

[*]the new small car priced below 5 lakhs coming this December with expected 1.0L 4 pot Vtec motor.[*]He promised me that the new small car will be extremely competitively priced and claimed to "kill the ethios".[/list]And here's how I reacted...felt pretty pissed off..god save Honda.

1.0 litre engine?
Honda wants to take on A-star and Estilo? with a price = 5 lakhs?

A-star will have Honda small car for breakfast, before Honda can even plan the Etios kill strike. Finally A-star will be able to have a success on its plate (after all the rejection it is getting in the market.)

Ooooooh, I forgot Honda gives 1.0 litre 4 pot, while A-star is 1.0 litre 3 pot! hehehe

Any Honda guys on this discussion? I am willing to give some free strategic consultancy to Honda management (at least for 1 more year, before I start earning my living off it).

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by PYSO

If most prospective Jazz customers were finally ending up buying ANHC, then it must be a good thing for Honda, isnt it? In which case, why the recently launch of Special addition of Honda Jazz (which if successful, might end up hurting ANHC sales)?

Select Edition Honda Jazz launched

And another question --> If most prospective Jazz customers were ending up buying ANHC, then why did Honda reintroduce the ANHC EMT base version a month or so ago?

Honda Siel relaunches the base version of City midsize sedan -WheelsUnplugged Automobile Industry News

I suspect most prospective Jazz customers did not end up buying ANHC and that is why the relaunch of ANHC EMT (a desperate move, coming as it does within less than a year of stopping sales of EMT)

So, what do we conclude from all this? That poor Jazz sales are not due to customers opting for ANHC after seeing both at the showroom.

Agree?

Please read and understand before posting a reply. I said "And even if somebody went to the showroom...". That, in plain English means "hardly anybody went to the showrooms, and the few who came to the showrooms ended up with the ANHC".

In plainer English, if 10 people were waiting for the Jazz, 8 of them didn't even turn up at the showrooms, 1 found the price affordable and bought it, 1 came to the showroom liked the ANHC and bought it instead.

So, all prospective Jazz buyers (I'd use the word aspirants) did not buy the ANHC.

[pgsagar]

Samsung ne Sony ka baja baja diya. Ab Hyundai baja raha hai Honda ka baja. Hyundai has overtaken Honda and is number 4 or 5 in the world. I wonder if Honda is in top 10. If Honda continue to make cars like Jazz and price it as insanely, then they will just be reduced to a niche player.

Honda cars sour grapes? That is a big joke. I know some rich guys who find 16 lakh Laura cheaper than 8 lakh Jazz. They laugh at Honda and at Jazz and at anyone who buys a Jazz. You have to be a sucker for Honda badge to be buying a Jazz at the price it comes at. There are some crazy Honda fans who would buy a Jazz at even 20 lakhs. They should thank Hyundai, Maruti and Tata because had it not been for competiotion from these three big small car makers, Honda would have priced Jazz at even 50 lakhs, and our Honda fans would have had a hard time buying it at that price. They would have probably mortgaged their house, soul and what not to buy a Jazz.

[//M]

Clearly the Jazz is overpriced. I like it more over other hatches, not because its a Honda. But because of its great interior space, big boot space, nice engine and quality interiors which make it good in the city as well as in the highway. If only the price would have been in i20 territory, the Jazz would have managed a better sales record. Honda needs to double-think its pricing strategy in India. Not all its products can sell like the way City does. The Civic and the CR-V, though sold strongly initially, is facing stiff competition from the Corolla Altis and the Fortuner respectively. Even the City is overpriced and just because of the price, I would prefer a Fiesta or a Linea over it anyday. Grow up Honda. We, as customers, need to be treated with respect and due parity.

[iTNerd]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Tell me you are kidding. All this time, your points were 'mostly' logical, but with this 1 line, you lost it. I have seen the same line used by another Honda fan on another Honda thread (about reliability IIRC) - he tried his best to make the point that Honda was God's gift to carkind and when he ran out of logical arguments, his final weapon was - "you guys are saying this because you can't afford a Honda". Hey its a Honda, not a Merc we are discussing here.

Now that you mentioned me, let me take the liberty to comment a few lines, if not more.. yeah, the last time, you did seem to have lost steam in that discussion about the reliability part! LOL.. well, it's useless to argue with someone who has not own and driven a Vtec.. within the car price range 7-18 lacs in India, nothing beats a Vtec, when it comes to reliability, refinement, FE and at the same time fulfilling the needs for enthusiasts and hardcore drivers! Yes, they are priced at a premium, but who cares, if you can afford it... And please, don't tell me, I am sounding if I am referring to a Merc! But even if it does, thats coming from the heart.. what's wrong with one loving the car and expressing about it? Ain't normal cars like yours, mine not lovable/admirable as just like other expensive Merc or beemer? Everything is about preception and its you and me who creates it! So, stop being chessy! You don't like Jazz, simple - don't buy it! Customer is the King!

[supremeBaleno]

You should be given credit for atleast 1 thing - consistency. You did not have anything logical to contribute to that thread and you have repeated the same on this thread too. Thanks.

And you are right. The customer surely is king. And how royally they have shown it to Honda with the Jazz. And with the Civic, Accord and CRV.

BTW, I did not know that Vtec added to reliability also, apart from increasing power, FE, or is it both FE & power simultaneously. Given how it is projected as the Holy Grail, I am sure it must also be helping better the handling, ride and interiors also of all Honda cars. Thanks for enlightening us - it was only your presence that was missing on this thread and preventing us from coming to a conclusion on why the Jazz tanked.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by iTNerd

within the car price range 7-18 lacs in India, nothing beats a Vtec, when it comes to reliability, refinement, FE and at the same time fulfilling the needs for enthusiasts and hardcore drivers!

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

BTW, I did not know that Vtec added to reliability also, apart from increasing power, FE, or is it both FE & power simultaneously. Given how it is projected as the Holy Grail, I am sure it must also be helping better the handling, ride and interiors also of all Honda cars.

I for one is not yet a huge fan of the Vtec, at least the one in the Civic. I still would like to drive something with good low-end and mid-range torque. What the heck, in the begining, I even thought that it is underpowered. I had a S10 which I never used to revv beyond 4000rpm, and still drive really fast. With the Vitec, I have to revv past 3000rpm to get some decent performance. S10 after 4000rpm is boomy, but the vtec is silent enough even at 6000rpm. The beauty of the vtec is that it gives what you want, to both the common man and the enthusiast. Keep the revvs below 3000rpm and you get excellent FE, and if you want performance just revv it. But yes, it is not the ultimate engine available as is often projected.

[PYSO]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Please read and understand before posting a reply. I said "And even if somebody went to the showroom...". That, in plain English means "hardly anybody went to the showrooms, and the few who came to the showrooms ended up with the ANHC".

A little bit more care from my side, I wouldn't you misread you. My apologies for that. Good part is ---> we agree. Things have come to a stage where very few customers are going to Honda showrooms to take a look at Jazz.

So, what can Honda do now? Anybody has ideas (with details of why the idea(s) would work).

- Lower price? To what price point?
- Increase number of variants? Or reduce number of variants?
- change engine? NHC 1.5 engine? ANHC vtec engine?
- more advertising?
- clearer advertising? Clearly highlight "More space, FE, reliability"?
- Increase features?
- Reduce spare cost?
- Dump Jazz? Focus on Honda small car?
- Give freebies with Jazz? E.g. free 5 year maintenance plan?
- Change exteriors and give a new name (e.g. Indica V2)
- Larger tyres?
- Only AT?
- Exchange offers with OHC, NHC?
- Free IPL tickets?
- New brand ambassador?
- Lower costs?
- New Honda India management team (just kidding, fellas)

[balaji_n29]

I think Honda would have realized that they could not sell a hatchback without a Diesel at this price range. Now that more small cars are getting launched and Honda has no plans to launch Diesel heads in India in the next 2-3 light years, let the Jazz RIP.

May be they could have learned from GM. They launched a fantastically priced hatchback called SR-V(I don't even remember the name properly)

[srishiva]

Is vtec one of the best petrol engines? well most people who drive it agree. Honda also makes some of the best 4 cylinder petrol engines in the world and some of the sweetest gear boxes.
Now coming to Jazz, yes its overpriced. By how much is what Honda should worry about. I for one went to buy a City for my wife with AT and came back impressed with Jazz. If it only had a AT, it would be in my garage. It has something unique and does appeal to a lot of people (who may not end up buying because of the price).

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by PYSO

So, what can Honda do now? Anybody has ideas (with details of why the idea(s) would work).

- Lower price? To what price point?
- Increase number of variants? Or reduce number of variants?
- change engine? NHC 1.5 engine? ANHC vtec engine?
- more advertising?
- clearer advertising? Clearly highlight "More space, FE, reliability"?
- Increase features?
- Reduce spare cost?
- Dump Jazz? Focus on Honda small car?
- Give freebies with Jazz? E.g. free 5 year maintenance plan?
- Change exteriors and give a new name (e.g. Indica V2)
- Larger tyres?
- Only AT?

Lesser price please. But not to the extend of pricing along with the Swift. A 1L price cut would bring in more sales, and at the same time would not dilute the brand value. Their latest strategy (of providing more goodies, without altering the price would not work). People would not miss the lack of alloys, ACC and the fogs. People didn't miss it even in the 10L sedan.

ps: Most of the i20s I see on the road are of the magna trim. People don't seem to care much about goodies, eventhough the i20 boasts about it.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Lesser price please. But not to the extend of pricing along with the Swift. A 1L price cut would bring in more sales, and at the same time would not dilute the brand value.

Yes, a price-cut is what would save the Jazz. It clearly deserves to be priced (significantly) above the Swift, though I am not sure how the pricing should be vis-a-vis the i20/Punto.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Their latest strategy (of providing more goodies, without altering the price would not work). People would not miss the lack of alloys, ACC and the fogs. People didn't miss it even in the 10L sedan.

More goodies without cutting the price won't work. People don't mind goodies being thrown in as part of the package, but final criteria is the sticker price. Forget 10L sedan, wasn't there an E-spec Civic which did not come with alloys and costing 12L or so ?

P.S. : But, a price-cut would be unfair to the folks who bought it at the earlier high prices. Maybe they can be compensated with some goodies.

[iTNerd]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

You should be given credit for atleast 1 thing - consistency. You did not have anything logical to contribute to that thread and you have repeated the same on this thread too. Thanks.

And you are right. The customer surely is king. And how royally they have shown it to Honda with the Jazz. And with the Civic, Accord and CRV.

BTW, I did not know that Vtec added to reliability also, apart from increasing power, FE, or is it both FE & power simultaneously. Given how it is projected as the Holy Grail, I am sure it must also be helping better the handling, ride and interiors also of all Honda cars. Thanks for enlightening us - it was only your presence that was missing on this thread and preventing us from coming to a conclusion on why the Jazz tanked.

It's no use debating on this subject, because, comments like yours (without proper authenticity) are without substance, biased towards a particular brand, no matter which thread, and only thrown to rudicule other's views. And, sorry bro, but you are not the person to judge if I am contributing to this discussion. The moderators have their trigger happy hand at work for such purposes. So, peace bro, and leave the sarcasm, frustration and bullying out of this discussion because that is NOT contributing!

Originally Posted by civic-sense

I for one is not yet a huge fan of the Vtec, at least the one in the Civic. I still would like to drive something with good low-end and mid-range torque. What the heck, in the begining, I even thought that it is underpowered. I had a S10 which I never used to revv beyond 4000rpm, and still drive really fast. With the Vitec, I have to revv past 3000rpm to get some decent performance. S10 after 4000rpm is boomy, but the vtec is silent enough even at 6000rpm. The beauty of the vtec is that it gives what you want, to both the common man and the enthusiast. Keep the revvs below 3000rpm and you get excellent FE, and if you want performance just revv it.

Yes, for congested city crawling/traffic, the Vtec may not be the ideal car to drive, but it is not as bad as it is! The 1.2 motor in Jazz might sound mediocre for the size, but, it is peppy and I can easily say, the best in terms of driveability and refinement in its class..

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Lesser price please. But not to the extend of pricing along with the Swift. A 1L price cut would bring in more sales, and at the same time would not dilute the brand value. Their latest strategy (of providing more goodies, without altering the price would not work). People would not miss the lack of alloys, ACC and the fogs. People didn't miss it even in the 10L sedan.

I don't think Honda will do much to bring down the price in Jazz, and if they do, it will be a first! May be in next generation, like they did in NHC..

Not sound defending or agreeing with the Jazz pricing in India, but if you compare the price of similarly equipped Jazz elsewhere, the price here is pretty much in league..

UK Jazz 1.2 i-Vtec (basic) is priced showroom at ~ £11,058.00 (roughly Rs. 7.74 lacs) with all disc brakes, no alloys, no audio controls.

Australia Jazz 1.3 i-vtec (GLi) priced showroom at ~ $16,990 (Rs. 7.13 lacs) with all disc brakes, no alloys, no audio controls

However, in US, only 1.5 motor is offered and the base variant includes side airbags as well, but no alloys and priced around $14,490 (roughly Rs. 6.5 lacs)..

The point is, the pricing of equivalent spec. Jazz here (Rs. 7.11 lacs ex-showroom Delhi) does seem to align (more or less) with the pricing level in other countries. It is just that in markets like India where price is very sensitive in hatch segment, the likes of Jazz, SRV etc. do not provide the VFM tag, and hence, finds less takers. But yes, a price-cut of a lac, and it would be a different story altogether!

American Honda has been named best all-round vehicle producer for the fourth consecutive year, according to the Automaker Report Cards published in Consumer Reports’ 2010 Annual Auto Issue in the U.S.
Honda was named alongside Subaru as the most reliable vehicle in Consumer Report’s predicted-reliability ratings, with an overall score of 77 out of 100 points.

In the same edition, the Honda Fit (called the Jazz in Australia) was named joint leader in Consumer Report’s new-car best values list, beating more than 280 cars in eight categories. The Fit (Jazz), which was also named best value small car, earned a value score of 2.08, representing more than twice the value of the average model.

The value of the Honda vehicle was judged according to a combination of performance, utility and reliability for money, considering total owner costs over the first five years.

Quoted from Consumer Reports Cars Blog: 2010 Consumer Reports automaker report cards

What a contradiction! elswhere, Jazz/Fit is the segment leader, and here, just 233 sales this month... Just shows that by bringing Jazz in India, they had opened a pandora box...