[rr_zen]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Also, while the alloys is good and even the parcel tray is understandable, mudflaps ? Isn't that something that comes standard on all cars ?

I think they are referring to the Honda OE mudflaps here. I saw an ad in today's newspaper and lost my cool. The only value-add are the alloys.

Also, IIRC one has to cough up 50K more for the so called 'Select' edition.

[sidindica]

only 10K expensive, not 50K.
jazz-7,11,000
jazz select 7,21,000 ex showroom Delhi.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by PYSO

Ehh.. I never thought of it this way.. I always thought that Civic sales went down (from average ~1300 to average ~450) on the launch of the new Corolla Altis (from average ~350? to average ~900?) in Sept 2008. But indeed, you have a point. ANHC was also released in Sept 2008.

Look at it this way; the Civic instantly lost a good 800 - 1000 cars after ANHC was launched. However, the Altis settled down to 700ish cars a month....exactly what the older Corolla managed a year earlier. And the Altis really took over the lead after it launched the base "J" model which is immensely popular with hotels & the taxi market. A market that already buys CBU Camrys under the EPCG scheme and Innovas. The base Altis that contributes to a substantial chunk of sales starts at 9.96 lakhs ex-showroom. The base Civic on the other hand (no E variant anymore) begins at 12.07 ex-showroom. Now, the Altis has a better backseat without doubt. Which do you think a hotel / tourist company will buy?

However, I am also not clear why the NHC iVTEC didnt eat into Civic sales (why only the ANHC iVTEC eats into Civic sales)!

The ANHC - car to car - is closer to the Civic in terms of power, space, looks (very important) and space. The NHC was about 1/2 a segment lower.

Anyways, you are just saying that ANHC is a more desirable buy for Indian customers than Civic. Which is also what I was saying ---> that Civic is not so much a desired car in the Indian auto market!

Absolutely. Like I said, I agree with the majority of the market that sees the ANHC as 90% Civic. I mean, does the mass market really care about rear disc brakes, additional horses, a revv happy engine or the driving experience as us enthusiasts do? No ways.

i20 already beats the Jazz hands down.

I couldn't agree anymore.

Will it be fair to use the same logic to say that i20 would beat Jazz even way farther, if i20 (petrol) didn't have a cheaper sibling (i10) with which it even shares an engine?

I wouldn't necessarily say that. The small car market is very price-sensitive and accounts for 70% of our market size. The i10 is a mass market product, the i20 isn't. It's a premium urban hatch. The C & C+ segment share more in common, simply because C segment sedans are growing in power, space and amenities. Just look at the Linea as an example!

Even Mercedes cannot sell solely on brand anymore, we'd be naive to think that the Honda City sells only on the brand.

I don't think the average City customer goes by such analytical / quantitative reasoning while buying; rather they go to a large extent by "social reasoning" --->

Well, I give the Indian buyer more credit than most other people do. To me, he is an extremely astute personality who weighs the pros & cons carefully.

And if brand premium'ness was everything, the Fabia would be a best-seller. After all, Skoda is a more prestigious brand in the Indian context than Honda. As you know, the Fabia is a sales dud!

The reason for the Honda City's success is that it is an all-rounder car. It excels in few areas (performance, fuel efficiency, space) and is middle of the way in others (ride quality, handling etc.). That's the key of an all-rounder. It doesn't have one single flaw. That's why it outsells its competitors 3:1, competitors which are all cheaper.

Originally Posted by amulu10

GTO do u think the jazz would have sold more if it was offered with more features say like the i20 .?
People who have bought the i20 asta petrol would have defenitely had the jazz in their minds but would have bought the former when they compare the features.
IMO if it had 6 airbags , a better ICE, sunroof , alloys and foglamps at the same price, Jazz would have sold double what it has now !

Without a doubt, yes. If Honda wants to sell the Jazz as a premium hatch, it has to be premium in every way. I mean, you can't skimp on alloy wheels when your 1.5 lakh cheaper competitor has 6 airbags!

[PYSO]

Originally Posted by GTO

Look at it this way; the Civic instantly lost a good 800 - 1000 cars after ANHC was launched. However, the Altis settled down to 700ish cars a month....exactly what the older Corolla managed a year earlier.

I did the calculations (pre- and post- Altis/ANHC launch) - the numbers speak for themselves.

Civic (Sep 07 - Aug 08) --- sold 14163
Civic (Sep 08 - Aug 09) --- sold 5,538

Corolla (Sep 07 - Aug 08) --- 6,089
Corolla Altis (Sep 08 - Aug 09) --- 9,172

NHC (Sep 07 - Aug 08) --- 38,949
ANHC (Sep 08 - Aug 09) --- 40,251


Civic went down 8.5K, Altis went up 3K and ANHC went up 1K.

Originally Posted by GTO

Now, the Altis has a better backseat without doubt. Which do you think a hotel / tourist company will buy?

Valid point.
Well, I dont see too many Corolla taxis / hotel-cars running around, though they are there.

Also, I know that this is the oldest trick in Honda's book of snobbery. Everytime a competitor outsells them, they say that the competitor sells to taxi drivers.

Cruze also outsells Civic. Do they sell to taxis, also? Or is it due to the diesel?

Originally Posted by GTO

Like I said, I agree with the majority of the market that sees the ANHC as 90% Civic.

Correct. I agree that ANHC as a car offers a package 80%-90% of Civic.

However, I disagree in the perspective of market dynamics. People dont buy a car merely for what the car offers. B+ segment and above are extremely concerned about what the ownership of the car offers. Civic / Altis / Cruze ownership offers a totally different value than what ANHC ownership offers.

Originally Posted by GTO

I wouldn't necessarily say that. The small car market is very price-sensitive and accounts for 70% of our market size. The i10 is a mass market product, the i20 isn't. It's a premium urban hatch. The C & C+ segment share more in common, simply because C segment sedans are growing in power, space and amenities. Just look at the Linea as an example!

You would be suprised how VFM conscious B+ segment is. And
Do you think i20 would have sold as well, but for (1) Really VFM, with the high specs/features (2) backed by the service network of Hyundai & lower maintenance costs (3) premium feel and ownership value


B and B+ segment are quite different.

However, C and C+ segment are also quite different. End of the day ---> C-segment is Hatch fitted with boot. C+ segment is true sedan segment.

Originally Posted by GTO

And if brand premium'ness was everything, the Fabia would be a best-seller. After all, Skoda is a more prestigious brand in the Indian context than Honda. As you know, the Fabia is a sales dud!

With a 3 pot engine, it was destined to be a dud. I am confident it has nothing to do with Skoda's brand. Just a non-sellable product.

I dont believe a 3 pot engine will ever work in B+ segment or above in India.
It might work in B-segment and below. (depending on other parameters as well).

I am waiting to see Polo suffer the same fate as Fabia

Jazz is different. It is a good product, killed by unrealistic positioning.

Originally Posted by GTO

The reason for the Honda City's success is that it is an all-rounder car. It excels in few areas (performance, fuel efficiency, space) and is middle of the way in others (ride quality, handling etc.). That's the key of an all-rounder. It doesn't have one single flaw. That's why it outsells its competitors 3:1, competitors which are all cheaper.

FE?
Does it really matter when you buy a 10L car? Any customer who does care about 15% higher fuel efficiency while buying a 10L car is a
The depreciation of the car would beat any fuel costs hands down

Honda City doesnt have a single flaw?

Dont agree on that. Dont know about ANHC (havent driven it), but the NHC has an infamous ground clearance. Need to put it into 1st gear to take on almost any hump in Bangalore. My Fiesta has never been put into first gear, except when starting up the car.

And dont forget the thick A-pillar of NHC. I wonder how many pedestrians have been squashed thanks to that.

Nevertheless, the NHC sold like hot cakes!

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by PYSO

I know that this is the oldest trick in Honda's book of snobbery. Everytime a competitor outsells them, they say that the competitor sells to taxi drivers.

I think GTO was just mentioning a fact that the hotel industry prefers Toyotas, which is true - have seen lots of Corollas/Camrys being used in Chennai also. I am not aware of Honda using that line against the competition - atleast in India.

Originally Posted by PYSO

Civic / Altis / Cruze ownership offers a totally different value than what ANHC ownership offers.

Agree. We may think of the ANHC as being 80% Civic, but the fact is it is not Civic.

@Pyso, you are using far too many smilies - I think only 2 allowed per post.

EDIT : I don't agree with the "ANHC not having a single flaw" part, but as it is we are way offtopic - don't want to drag this Jazz-thread further away.

[PYSO]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

EDIT : I don't agree with the "ANHC not having a single flaw" part, but as it is we are way offtopic - don't want to drag this Jazz-thread further away.

You are right. I was going
Will restrain myself!

[san2]

even though the quality and the product is class leading
the practice of Honda and Toyota pricing their products with a premium has backfired for honda with Jazz
hope this inspires them to price it in a affordable range

that will result in honda customers being not serious

[PYSO]

Originally Posted by san2

even though the quality and the product is class leading
the practice of Honda and Toyota pricing their products with a premium has backfired for honda with Jazz
hope this inspires them to price it in a affordable range

that will result in honda customers being not serious

I personally never understood what Honda was trying to communicate with the slogan "Why so serious"

Can anyone enlighten me?

[amtak]

You pay 8 lakhs for the car and for miles you are the only person travelling in an exclusive hatchback, seriously! why be serious?

[supremeBaleno]

Nice one, Amtak.

On a serious note, I think by using the tagline "Why so serious?" for Jazz, Honda wanted to project it as a fun-car, driving or being driven in which would help one leave behind the monotony/seriousness of life associated with work and other such mundane stuff.

And personally, I feel that this image matches well with the Jazz, just that the price would make you go serious again.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by PYSO

NHC (Sep 07 - Aug 08) --- 38,949
ANHC (Sep 08 - Aug 09) --- 40,251

In these numbers, you are using two months where the ANHC hadn't yet started full fledged production (e.g. Oct '08 where no cars were available, and dropped to 707. And September which still included left-over NHCs). Compare Nov (when the car really started becoming available) to October and you'll see a total of 47,021 ANHCs! Fact is, at a higher asking price, the ANHC is matching / exceeding the NHC's sales. I myself was surprised and had predicted the opposite.

And as a car, the ANHC is closer to the Civic than the NHC was. How much ever the difference is, its still slimmer than what it was with the NHC. Don't miss how the ANHC is also competing at a higher price (about 1.xx lakh more than the NHC) and thus, within an arms length of the Civic.

Also, I know that this is the oldest trick in Honda's book of snobbery. Everytime a competitor outsells them, they say that the competitor sells to taxi drivers.

I wouldn't say its snobbery at all. A fact, isn't it? Honda discontinued the E variant because it has the cheaper City....and to avoid product overlap. Toyota doesn't have any sedan lower than the Altis. Plus, in addition to the Altis, the Innova & Camry have a majority of commercial buyers. Its only the Fortuner that is purely targetted at personal owners.

You would be suprised how VFM conscious B+ segment is.

Definitely are. But the B+ segment is less price sensitive than where the entry-level i10 finds itself.

Do you think i20 would have sold as well, but for (1) Really VFM, with the high specs/features (2) backed by the service network of Hyundai & lower maintenance costs (3) premium feel and ownership value

Agreed. The i20 has a lot going for it. Plus, even today, it retains several differentiating points over others.

However, C and C+ segment are also quite different. End of the day ---> C-segment is Hatch fitted with boot. C+ segment is true sedan segment.

I don't think the mass market could be less bothered about whether its a proper sedan, or a hatch with a boot. Else, the Octavia / Laura would have never enjoyed the success they have. They aren't proper sedans, are they now?

With a 3 pot engine, it was destined to be a dud. I am confident it has nothing to do with Skoda's brand. Just a non-sellable product.

Correct. But my point is, that "premiumness" and social factors sure didn't work for the Fabia, did they?

I disagree that people buy the ANHC for the "Honda name" alone. Else, as demonstrated, the Jazz and the Fabia would have been runaway successes. Clearly, the ANHC meets the requirements of the C segment buyer, better than its competitors (as the sales prove).

FE?
Does it really matter when you buy a 10L car?

When Merc & BMW owners care about FE, why wouldn't a humble 10 lakh rupee sedan customer? Search through our forums and you'll see examples of these. There is a reason why Euro diesels outsell Euro petrols by a mile (just ask Laura or Octavia). It's primarily down to the monthly fuel costs.

Any customer who does care about 15% higher fuel efficiency while buying a 10L car is a

Well, that's the Indian customer for you

Honda City doesnt have a single flaw?

Nope, what I meant is, it doesn't have a single major deal breaker. Not atleast for a majority of the market, as demonstrated by its sales.

And dont forget the thick A-pillar of NHC. I wonder how many pedestrians have been squashed thanks to that.

A pillars are only getting thicker for cars to meet safety norms. Check out the one in the Ritz lately?

[sbraj]

Originally Posted by PYSO

Well, I dont see too many Corolla taxis / hotel-cars running around, though they are there.

Also, I know that this is the oldest trick in Honda's book of snobbery. Everytime a competitor outsells them, they say that the competitor sells to taxi drivers.

Originally Posted by GTO

I wouldn't say its snobbery at all. A fact, isn't it?
...
Plus, in addition to the Altis, the Innova & Camry have a majority of commercial buyers. Its only the Fortuner that is purely targetted at personal owners.

I don't see anything wrong with owning a car that is being used for commercial purposes. If anything, it goes on to prove the reliability of the vehicle.

If selling to commercial buyers generates revenue, why do we assume that Honda wouldn't want the same?

[PYSO]

Originally Posted by sbraj

If selling to commercial buyers generates revenue, why do we assume that Honda wouldn't want the same?

I know that in the US, Honda makes a lot of brouhaha about not selling to car-lease companies, taxi services, etc. so that their brand is not diluted. They apparently even contact car-lease companies, taxi services, etc with tempting offers to buy back the car.

Apparently, they dont want their customers to be 'shamed' by finding their make of car being driven by ordinary taxi drivers (My personal take on this is that it has more to do with their Japaneese cultural under-pinnings rather than US culture ).

In Europe (especially Germany, Netherlands, France) almost every taxi is a Merc. Hardly, seen any non-Merc taxi in Netherlands, Germany during the 5 years I lived there.

I give two hoots to Japanese culture ---> so, obviously I find Honda's "won't sell to taxi" reputation rather silly.

Originally Posted by GTO

When Merc & BMW owners care about FE, why wouldn't a humble 10 lakh rupee sedan customer? Search through our forums and you'll see examples of these. There is a reason why Euro diesels outsell Euro petrols by a mile (just ask Laura or Octavia). It's primarily down to the monthly fuel costs.

Diesel (50% lower fuel costs) is a different discussion than iVTEC (15% lower fuel costs). Apples-to-oranges isnt it?

Why not buy a TDCi or CRDi, rather an iVTEC?

And ever considered a comparo of the number of kms done by the average businessman Merc-owner Vs. the number of kms done by the average upper-middle-class iVTEC owner? I am sure it will throw surprising figures.

I stick by my original argument. ANHC sales (and C-segment sales) are driven by aspirational buyers (social prestige, wanting to move out of 80% hatch market). While Jazz sales (and B+ segment sales) will have to be driven by 'VFM - first' + 'Aspirational - second' buyers. Unfortunately, Jazz is priced like an Aspirational (C-segment) car.

Indeed among C-segment cars, ANHC stands out ---> Because it maximises social prestige + it is a really good car as GTO points out.

In B+ segment ---> Jazz loses out, because it is not VFM + it is not as aspirational today as i20 (thanks to the ill-perception it has created in the market by now).

I am confident that if Jazz prices are reduced to i20 levels, it will still not sell well compared to i20. Honda will have to do more than that.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Nice one, Amtak.

On a serious note, I think by using the tagline "Why so serious?" for Jazz, Honda wanted to project it as a fun-car, driving or being driven in which would help one leave behind the monotony/seriousness of life associated with work and other such mundane stuff.

And personally, I feel that this image matches well with the Jazz, just that the price would make you go serious again.

Thanks for putting in perspective. I guess you are right about what Honda is trying to project.

I always read the marketing campaign as "Dont be serious about spending your hard-earned money. But we are dead-serious about taking your moolah and laughing all the way to the bank."

The only "not so serious" part is Honda laughing all the way to the bank

[GTO]

Originally Posted by sbraj

I don't see anything wrong with owning a car that is being used for commercial purposes. If anything, it goes on to prove the reliability of the vehicle.

Who said there's anything wrong? Among other cars, I own an Indigo and a Jeep....both brands are famous for their taxi usage in India.

Originally Posted by PYSO

I know that in the US, Honda makes a lot of brouhaha about not selling to car-lease companies, taxi services, etc. so that their brand is not diluted.

It's not merely brand dilution. The way that American rent-a-car companies work is:

a) They buy real cheap. Brands that want to maintain a certain price point (for new & used cars, both) avoid selling to a Hertz. Most Jap car makers (Honda, Toyota etc.) restrict their rental sales to a certain limit, while Ford, GM & Chrsyler are offloading excess inventory in this market.

b) When the deluge of rental cars makes its way to the used market (typically after only 3 years), it kills the residuals. Rental cos buy cheap and thus, resell for cheap.

This is precisely why Honda offered buy-backs in the States, and as another example, Mercedes & BMW tightly control the market for their used cars in India.

Depreciation is a significant ownership cost, if not the highest, for a majority of car owners.

Why not buy a TDCi or CRDi, rather an iVTEC?

There are still high-mileage users who prefer petrol. Search the forum and you'll see a long list (start with iraghava). Why didn't they chose diesel instead? Well, to each his own.

I think we are discussing two things here:

a) Do people buy the ANHC because of its FE alone? I never said that. However, the FE is just one of the factors that makes the ANHC an all-rounder. If the ANHC was a guzzler, no one would touch the car with a barge pole. That it offers excellent FE contributes to the overall buying decision.

b) Do Indians care about FE, even in the 10 lakh and above segment? LIKE HOW! Forget the common man, even enthusiasts do. Do refer to the many ANHC threads and you'll see a majority talking (and giving a lot of importance) to FE. FE is the reason that the previous gen Accord V6 was a sales dud (remember, it was priced far more competitively than the current V6). FE is the reason that the V6 sells for the same price, OR LESSER, than Accord I-4s in the used market.

And if people didn't care about FE after spending 10 lakh rupees, logically they would care less so with diesel (a cheaper fuel), isn't it? Skoda has built its reputation in India on high-efficiency diesels. In the hundreds of ownership reviews (submitted to Team-BHP), premium car owners may miss a point on the gizmos or the power. But they will always be particular in mentioning the fuel efficiency (down to decimals). Clearly, there is a focus on this area, is it not?

Lastly, annual fuel costs actually run lower than the scheduled maintenance costs. Fact is, you'll hear nearly every German premium car owner speak of "how high" the service costs are. Do you expect them to care about 25,000 a year in maintenance, and not about 72,000 a year in fuel bills? Either of them is a component of the total running cost of a car, and directly related to the sheer number of kms that you log on.

The FE is reason alone why Merc V6 petrols depreciate like stink, compared to their four banger counterparts. I will agree that premium car owners would be less sensitive about FE (compared to how some 800 owners would stretch for the last 0.5 kpl), but they do care about FE nevertheless. For my Vtec, Civic and C220, the most frequent question I've heard from family / friends / anyone who is considering the car is.....you guessed it "what average do you get?"

And ever considered a comparo of the number of kms done by the average businessman Merc-owner Vs. the number of kms done by the average upper-middle-class iVTEC owner?

That's a myth which I don't buy at all. Few people buy a Merc E Class to keep as a showpiece in their house; I know more who actually use it as a daily driver than a weekend'er. There aren't any stats that prove premium car owners live closer to their office, and according to Auto Hangar (Mumbai's premier Merc dealer), the average running for E Class' is 10,000 kms a year. Look up BMW's service packages (which are normally calculated on the median, or a little lower than median running). Their 5 year packages start at 60,000 kms (or 12K a year) going upto 100,000 (or 20K a year). The average running for premium cars is in the same ballpark as lower-end cars (anywhere between 10,000 - 12,000 clicks per year). I can tell you from personal experience; my C220 in the last 3 years clocked more miles than my OHC Vtec. I know most premium car owners on the forum (including Merc, BMW and Audi) clock anywhere between 10,000 - 14,000 p.a., year after year.

Indeed among C-segment cars, ANHC stands out ---> Because it maximises social prestige + it is a really good car as GTO points out.

I am confident that if Jazz prices are reduced to i20 levels, it will still not sell well compared to i20. Honda will have to do more than that.

1.5 lakhs cheaper? I say it'll sell. Until Honda actually corrects the price (if at all), we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[onelife]

Originally Posted by PYSO

I always read the marketing campaign as "Dont be serious about spending your hard-earned money. But we are dead-serious about taking your moolah and laughing all the way to the bank."

The only "not so serious" part is Honda laughing all the way to the bank

My perspective on the Honda Jazz pricing. Which car in India offers as much space as Honda Jazz with Magic Seats at a price of 8 lakhs? Honda Jazz seems to have more space than even many of the sedans.

All cars with equivalent space are @ price of 10+.