[clevermax]

Originally Posted by sonirohit

My neighbor once wanted to buy a hatch. The shortlisted contenders were punto & ritz. The only reason he opted for maruti was the perception that punto is fiat - and fiat still carries the premier padmini tag, and as a stop gap arrangement tata is servicing these vehicles, whereas maruti is here to stay.
These are the thoughts of most of the junta who buys hatch (read middle or cattle err class)

OT

It is not a stop gap arrangement that TATA is servicing Fiat cars. To make things clear, There is dedicated Fiat service team inside the garage, and they look into Fiat cars only. TATA service team is different. Moreover, Fiat is directly following up with each and every customer of Fiat cars on every service nowadays. Every customer who visits TASS gets a follow up call from Pune for feedback. They are acting upon it too, as I know that the service center guys are given feedback from Fiat when a customer gives bad rating. I am not saying that the A.S.S. is very good now, but Fiat is trying to improve it.

and fiat still carries the premier padmini tag

What does this mean?

[CARDEEP]

This whole thread is marred by obscene love or hatred for Swift Diesel.

I would request the moderators to close this tread.

Err... please wait... I feel I need to put in my thoughts.


Accepted that Swift Diesel is fast on the highway, but in the city it is not as good as the Petrol (especially the G-series). You have to constantly manage the gears in traffic, which can be pain & when the turbo kicks in you tend to smoke all others.

Swift as a package is good & selling in good numbers (both the hatch & saloon sell approx 20K units per month)

Will we ever see a Swift D beater hatch?

This is not the proper question, in my opinion. My arguments are as under:

1. Diesel Technology is not developed in-house by Maruti or Suzuki. I have always maintained that the manufacturer has to work on own R&D rather than have licensed products from another manufacturer. But, Suzuki's problem is that they do not have a single Diesel engine developed in-house.

2. There is the stable-mate Ritz, with the same engine but different gearbox settings. It is not that fast. If other manufacturers change their gear settings or you go to any good tuner with Punto or Vista or Fiesta, I have no doubt that these cars will smoke the Swift. So a lot depends on the gearbox & the driver (while on road).
In my opinion, Ritz is far better over Swift as it has better space back seat & is not claustrophobic as the swift, & beauty lies in the eyes of beholder. Not to mention that its back seat is better for families than the Swift.

3. Swift sells more numbers because of the fact that for more than 12 years from 1984 onwards there weren't any credible competitors for Maruti in Small cars segment. But, when comes to the sedans & SUV's what is their status... laggards. If Honda rationalise the price of City & Jazz, I bet Swift + Dezire's numbers (& of all the competitors) will reduce drastically, like what happened in when NHC was launched. Then no one will care for Swift Diesel as well.

4. Maruti has the biggest A.S.S. network in India due to the fact that Maruti rode on Govt's head to every corner of India. I bet without the Indian Govt's role ion Maruti, Suzuki had been in the place it is at present. In fact Maruti Suzuki sells more than Suzuki all over, which clearly indicates the actual position of Suzuki brand in the world vis-a-vis India. Compare this with the position of Hyundai & Ford (leave aside the so called technologically superior Honda & Toyota) all over the world & it appears that Suzuki is a baby as compared to these mature corporates.

But, Swift is still better than most of the competitors products, mainly because of the pricing & Maruti's A.S.S. (which has built up the brand name). Also, to some extent Govt's small car incentive policy is skewed in favour of their estranged baby (Maruti). Other car maker do not care to bring their good products India due to either of the clauses in the small cars incentive. e.g.- Punto's length had to be shortened to be introduced in India, Ford did not had any car under 4 metres before the Figo, most manufacturers do not have engines under 1200cc, they have to redesign the engine for India.
This gives an advantage to Maruti to sell their products in India. And, till that time Maruti will continue to sell more models than anyone.

[romeomidhun]

There is only one answer to the question 'why Swift sells more': it is a better product compared to the competition. This comparison includes many factors like price, style, mileage, service, spare parts price, spare parts availability, resale value, reliability, build quality, and peace of mind. Swift is best in some of these areas, and not in some other areas. But overall, Swift is better than the competition.

I just don't understand when someone says its is just because of 'Maruti' tag. After all, what is 'Maruti'? They earned that reputation through their products and service only, and not by any ruling from any court!

And somebody says Getz CRDI will beat Swift! Note that we are not talking about road race, but about the whole product. Why we need to bring a dead horse here? If Getz was a Swift beater, why Hyundai had to stop Getz production? So it clear that Getz is clearly beaten by Swift.

[clevermax]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

And somebody says Getz CRDI will beat Swift! Note that we are not talking about road race, but about the whole product.

But according to the thread starter, he's talking more about the highway race, as seen below:

Originally Posted by pgsagar

By the way, I am a Punto fan too. Din't you see the part where I said only to-be-launched Punto Sport seems capable of beating Swift D. But I hope Fiat doesn't screw things up and gives us a whimper which plays second fiddle to Swift D on highway Grand Prix again. I am also kinda bored reading in every review about every other diesel hatches' inability to beat Swift D in performance. And how Swift D has set a benchmark in performance and blah, blah, blah.... It as become too one-sided and boring. So Pleeeeeeease somebody give us a Swift D smoker. Is Fiat listening?

Speculations are around that Punto S will hit the roads next month, so then we'll have another Swift D beater.

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

There is only one answer to the question 'why Swift sells more': it is a better product compared to the competition. This comparison includes many factors like price, style, mileage, service, spare parts price, spare parts availability, resale value, reliability, build quality, and peace of mind. Swift is best in some of these areas, and not in some other areas. But overall, Swift is better than the competition.

I just don't understand when someone says its is just because of 'Maruti' tag. After all, what is 'Maruti'? They earned that reputation through their products and service only, and not by any ruling from any court!

And somebody says Getz CRDI will beat Swift! Note that we are not talking about road race, but about the whole product. Why we need to bring a dead horse here? If Getz was a Swift beater, why Hyundai had to stop Getz production? So it clear that Getz is clearly beaten by Swift.

Dude the guy who started this thread is not talking about "Swift's sales figures", at least in the initial post, and all he wants to know if there will be any hatch who can take on Swift D not as a 'Maruti Swift D' but simply Swift D as a 'product'. He is talking about Swift D's performance and nothing else.

So its quiet natural that people talk about Getz/i20 CRDi and so on. Hyundai stopped Getz production for many reasons, IMO its more of i20 they would like to concentrate on in that segment. IMO its a welcome move by Hyundai unlike Maruti retaining all the generations while introducing new generations of the same car as a "New Car"

[rpmx1000]

Originally Posted by lifeonwheels

@rpmx1000 - Now isn't that too hard to believe. Only true if the driver in Swift was a novice. I know ther was no point replying to such posts but then again if no one does how do kids learn things while growing

Not true.I know drivers who've been driving over ten years and don't cross certain limits.

If I'm the kid who you were referring to, not sure what you want to teach me . Did'nt learn anything from your post. Could'nt decipher your noble intentions!

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by clevermax

But according to the thread starter, he's talking more about the highway race

Originally Posted by HammerHead

He is talking about Swift D's performance and nothing else.

Wrong, in my understanding. See points in the original post below:

"There just isn't a diesel hatch which can stand up to Swift in terms of show and go."

Show definitely means style, right?

"In spite of not featuring things like climate control, electric door mirrors, airbags, rear wiper/defogger, steering mounted controls etc. which the competition like Punto/i20 are providing, Swift is market leader. Wonder what would have Swift done if it had come with all these goodies."

So, he is considering other factors also.

"BTW I don't even want to talk about 3-cylinder rattlers Beat and Polo will come with ( when they do after a few months/years )."

He considers engine specs also.

"Meanwhile Swift can equip all the above-said features in its top end version and watch all cars up to 10 lakhs disappear."

Again, he is considering other features here.

Or better, we will wait for the opinion of the thread starter

Hyundai stopped Getz production for many reasons, IMO its more of i20 they would like to concentrate on in that segment. IMO its a welcome move by Hyundai unlike Maruti retaining all the generations while introducing new generations of the same car as a "New Car"

Do you see any sense in this argument? Getz is stopped, not for many reasons, but the only reason that it was not selling! Nothing other than that. If we accept your argument, why Hyundai is still selling Santro when they have i10 in the same segment? Just because Santro is selling 6-7K monthly. Why selling Accent when Verna is there?

Neither Maruti, nor Hyundai is saint.


.

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Wrong, in my understanding. See points in the original post below:

"There just isn't a diesel hatch which can stand up to Swift in terms of show and go."

Show definitely means style, right?

"In spite of not featuring things like climate control, electric door mirrors, airbags, rear wiper/defogger, steering mounted controls etc. which the competition like Punto/i20 are providing, Swift is market leader. Wonder what would have Swift done if it had come with all these goodies."

So, he is considering other factors also.

"BTW I don't even want to talk about 3-cylinder rattlers Beat and Polo will come with ( when they do after a few months/years )."

He considers engine specs also.

"Meanwhile Swift can equip all the above-said features in its top end version and watch all cars up to 10 lakhs disappear."

Again, he is considering other features here.

Or better, we will wait for the opinion of the thread starter



Do you see any sense in this argument? Getz is stopped, not for many reasons, but the only reason that it was not selling! Nothing other than that. If we accept your argument, why Hyundai is still selling Santro when they have i10 in the same segment? Just because Santro is selling 6-7K monthly. Why selling Accent when Verna is there?

Neither Maruti, nor Hyundai is saint.

I have read all that so does others. Its your assumption that the thread starter is talking about "Swift D's sales" which is not seen in his initial post.

Now point me where in his initial post he has talked about "Swift D's sales figures"?

Regarding Hyundai and Maruti, I'm not fan of either but its still good to see a 1997 Hyundai Santro (Atos) running side by side with a 2007 Hyundai Santro (i10) rather then seeing a 1984 M800 (2nd Gen. Alto) running side by side with 1998 Alto (5th Gen. Alto) and 2008 A-Star (7th Gen. Alto) here in India.

Low sales figures may be a reason for retiring a particular car but it doesn't necessarily means that the car is not good.

[pgsagar]

Clevermax, you are spot on. What I meant was simple. Will we ever see a Swift beater in show ( I mean looks ) and go ( performance)? Period. In my view people are taken in so much by its looks and go that in spite of lack of several features, it is outselling all other hatches. Romeo, my considering of other factors are in the light of its ability to outsell others in spite of lack of several features.

No I neither love Maruti nor hate. And my focus of discussion is Swift alone and not MUL. And IMO Swift is a success for its looks and go and not for its badge. If Maruti badge was so potent, why did Estilo, A-star failed to do the trick?

As of now, there isn't a Swift beater 3 years on ( since '07 ) and that is a fact however unpalatable or boring it may be. I expected more from Punto and Vista because they also share this "national" engine. But both these cars fall short of Swift's performance. Period.

Ok, let me say---to hell with sales figures, badge, features, driveability, FE. Can we see a Swift smoker in near future? One which can show a clear pair of heels to a Swift D on highway? Now please don't say Elantra/Magnum/Verna.

[shivasuma]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Can we see a Swift smoker in near future? One which can show a clear pair of heels to a Swift D on highway? Now please don't say Elantra/Magnum/Verna.

Yes, an I20 crdi can do that. Its quicker and has a better top end than the swift D.

[mtnrajdeep]

Originally Posted by shivasuma

Yes, an I20 crdi can do that. Its quicker and has a better top end than the swift D.

But, isnt the I20 crdi significantly more expensive than the Swift D? Shouldn't we look at cars in the same price range as that of Swift D? If tomorrow Merc decides to bring in their A Class, it will also surely smoke the Swift D but it will be much more expensive as well. Will there be any other car in the future in the Swift D price range that will be better that the Swift D in all respects? Is any manufacturer trying to bring in such models in the future?

[shivasuma]

Originally Posted by mtnrajdeep

But, isnt the I20 crdi significantly more expensive than the Swift D? Shouldn't we look at cars in the same price range as that of Swift D? If tomorrow Merc decides to bring in their A Class, it will also surely smoke the Swift D but it will be much more expensive as well. Will there be any other car in the future in the Swift D price range that will be better that the Swift D in all respects? Is any manufacturer trying to bring in such models in the future?

The thread starter himself compared it with i20 and punto and hence my response. If the thread started had asked, is there any hatch priced closed to the swift that can "smoke" it, well then probably no, unless Hyundai does a miracle and brings back the getz crdi.

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

What I meant was simple. Will we ever see a Swift beater in show ( I mean looks ) and go ( performance)? Period. In my view people are taken in so much by its looks and go that in spite of lack of several features, it is outselling all other hatches. Romeo, my considering of other factors are in the light of its ability to outsell others in spite of lack of several features.

Ok ok let it be. I thought you were referring the overall package and sales figures when I came to the following points:

"In spite of not featuring things like climate control, electric door mirrors, airbags, rear wiper/defogger, steering mounted controls etc. which the competition like Punto/i20 are providing, Swift is market leader."

"Wonder what would have Swift done if it had come with all these goodies. It would have probably wiped out all cars upto 10 lakhs."

"Meanwhile Swift can equip all the above-said features in its top end version and watch all cars up to 10 lakhs disappear."

Peace to all!

.

[SilkDrive]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Clevermax, you are spot on. What I meant was simple. Will we ever see a Swift beater in show ( I mean looks ) and go ( performance)? Period. In my view people are taken in so much by its looks and go that in spite of lack of several features, it is outselling all other hatches. Romeo, my considering of other factors are in the light of its ability to outsell others in spite of lack of several features.

No I neither love Maruti nor hate. And my focus of discussion is Swift alone and not MUL. And IMO Swift is a success for its looks and go and not for its badge. If Maruti badge was so potent, why did Estilo, A-star failed to do the trick?

As of now, there isn't a Swift beater 3 years on ( since '07 ) and that is a fact however unpalatable or boring it may be. I expected more from Punto and Vista because they also share this "national" engine. But both these cars fall short of Swift's performance. Period.

Ok, let me say---to hell with sales figures, badge, features, driveability, FE. Can we see a Swift smoker in near future? One which can show a clear pair of heels to a Swift D on highway? Now please don't say Elantra/Magnum/Verna.

Going by only the performance, I think we should put aside our expectations of a better diesel hatch in a similar price bracket for atleast another couple of years. So my thats my answer to the current discussion.

But lets deviate a bit make an assumption here...

i.e. a comparo between two assumed cars :
"Maruti Suzuki Grande Punto" Vs "Fiat Swift".

I am not able to predict which one would have sold more??
But I assume that the rattling issues of the Fiat Swift would have been criticized more harshly then, and the initial turbo-lag, would have been written about as a turn off on every forum. The ride and handling would have lost the war against the Maruti Punto. The slightly higher pick-up would then seem to be a very minute advantage. Overall in comparison to the Maruti Punto the cons would have out-weighed the pros.

So, if i were a potential customer, I would have chosen a Maruti Punto and would have been satisfied with the thought that even though my car has a slightly lower pick up on highways, i still have a much better product, and above all I have a peace of mind that the fiat-swift owners can only dream of.

This is what the Manufacturer(Maruti) has earned through its consistent efforts and serious attitude towards its business. And, boy do respect it!!! And this respect has done wonders to the swift. People might be referring this aspect as the maruti Badge.

No product is flawless, but the badges play a crucial role during a comparo. Badges give us a pre-coceived notion that makes us lineant towards a few flaws of one product where as stringent towards the flaws of the other.

I saw a comment earlier, that the swift has a peace of mind associated with it. I would like to mention that this is not an attribute of the product as a stand alone object. It is rather an attribute of the Manufacturer, that it has gained via its quality service and customer satisfaction over time. Its not that swift owners never faces issues with their cars, but they can be laid back that there are 99.99% chances of the issues being sorted out on the first visit to the M.A.S.S.

But just comparing "debadged" products, someone would prefer the swifts pickup, some would love the puntos ride and handling and some would love the figos VFM and rear bench comfort. So requirements of individual makes a particular product look like a winner to him. And it is unfair to just ask if some product could beat the other or not on a general basis.

I have a keen ear towards all disagreements to this theory, but please dont hunt me down as I am also a swift fan and I really appreciate it.

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by SilkDrive

A comparo between two assumed cars :
"Maruti Suzuki Grande Punto" Vs "Fiat Swift".

I'm with you SilkDrive . I always had this thought, what would have been the response if Indica Vista was launched as "Maruti XYZ" or for that matter "Hyundai ABC".

Originally Posted by pgsagar

And IMO Swift is a success for its looks and go and not for its badge. If Maruti badge was so potent, why did Estilo, A-star failed to do the trick?

Estilo selling around 5k and A-Star 3k per month is a failure? IMO these 2 has exceeded the expectations considering competition!! And yeah these 2 sell purely on M badge.