[anachronix]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

I strongly doubt that. It may work in the short term but will be bad for the Gen2 in long term. To position Swift Gen2 just above the existing model, MSIL will have to charge a premium for the Gen2 or offer good discounts on the existing model. This will make the Gen2 overpriced and will look silly when stronger competition arrives in the future. Also, providing discounts/ freebies on the existing model will dilute the brand 'Swift' which is still going strong and mainly so on the 'brand image' even after so many years. Even after 5 years, MSIL doesn't give any discounts on the Swift to propel sales and that is saying something.

Did you miss the time when MSIL was selling M800/Alto/Zen or the Alto/A-Star being sold at the same time now with a premium?

And, All the manufacturers who have tried this trick (of selling 2 models side by side) has faltered in the long run. The new model will be highly overpriced to accomodate the 2 models in the same segment and this has prevented the new model from becoming the success it would have otherwise with a more aggressive/ right pricing. Case in point Verna, Laura etc.

They did make good amount of profits when they did sell the previous generation model & current generation together! I dont know why you want to call that a flattered strategy.

You should look at this sales figure for the month of March 2011 from Hyundai!
Accent : 1,293
Verna : 489

It doesnt look like a failed strategy IMO!

And to make things worse, the Gen2 Swift is not all that different from the existing one, so MSIL will find it tough to position both of them together in the crowded B segment. If MSIL had the courage to pull out the old WagonR, which was going strong, the existing Swift' case will be no different.

WagonR, yes! If the new WagonR was sold at a premium, it gets into the Ritz/Swift pricing and there was hardly a choice for MSIL.

The Swift is in premium hatch segment for Maruti, they can have the strategy of having a cheaper Swift & a premium Swift!

[iSpoke]

Can't the MSIL go the Ford way?

Make the existing Swift prices "look" damn cheap for entry level models LXi (just exaggerating, say 3.25L), introduce the new Swift 2011 entry level version Lxi slighter above or within the current top end version ZXi territory.

[deetjohn]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Did you miss the time when MSIL was selling M800/Alto/Zen or the Alto/A-Star being sold at the same time now with a premium?

Well, that was long back, the market has moved on. And didn't the newer models suffer because of that? (read Alto & Astar; Alto picked up only after the repositioning by MSIL).

Originally Posted by anachronix

You should look at this sales figure for the month of March 2011 from Hyundai!
Accent : 1,293
Verna : 489
It doesnt look like a failed strategy IMO!

Exactly what I said. Look at the Verna, selling the Accent along side has affected it big time from becoming a stellar success. Compare the Verna to the Dzire sales. It is no where and now its going to be replaced, but the old Accent still lives on. Irony isn't it?

Originally Posted by anachronix

WagonR, yes! If the new WagonR was sold at a premium, it gets into the Ritz/Swift pricing and there was hardly a choice for MSIL.

A Good point there. But will MSIL really like its new hatchback fighting a MS sedan? With the talk to a sub 4 meter Dzire (with a lower price tag), where will that leave the Gen 2 Swift? The Old Swift will still go strong but the new one will suffer in the long run. And what will a cheaper Swift do to the other MSIL cars in B segment? I think, it will be too much of a hassle and unwanted headache for MSIL. Better if they go all out behind the Gen 2, to make it the success that the current Swift is/ was.

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

It may work in the short term but will be bad for the Gen2 in long term. To position Swift Gen2 just above the existing model, MSIL will have to charge a premium for the Gen2 or offer good discounts on the existing model. This will make the Gen2 overpriced and will look silly when stronger competition arrives in the future. Also, providing discounts/ freebies on the existing model will dilute the brand 'Swift' which is still going strong and mainly so on the 'brand image' even after so many years. Even after 5 years, MSIL doesn't give any discounts on the Swift to propel sales and that is saying something.

Note that a tail-attached weird looking DZire didn't affect the brand 'Swift'. So, addition of one more model will not affect it, provided, Maruti don't offer any discounts on the older model. They may not need to do that because Swift is still in good demand.

Originally Posted by deetjohn

And, All the manufacturers who have tried this trick (of selling 2 models side by side) has faltered in the long run. The new model will be highly overpriced to accommodate the 2 models in the same segment and this has prevented the new model from becoming the success it would have otherwise with a more aggressive/ right pricing. Case in point Verna, Laura etc. And kudos to Honda to never do it with the City upgrades. This is one reason for the strong success of all new City avatars. And to make things worse, the Gen2 Swift is not all that different from the existing one, so MSIL will find it tough to position both of them together in the crowded B segment.

But Maruti has successfully done that with the Alto brand. Maruti can avoid a big overlap of old and new Swift by giving only Lxi, LDi, VXi and VDi versions in old model, and only VXi, VDi, ZXi and ZDi in new models.

Originally Posted by deetjohn

If MSIL had the courage to pull out the old WagonR, which was going strong, the existing Swift' case will be no different.

Maruti discontinued the old Wagon-R because they were able to price the new model at almost the same price point of the old one. That's not the case with Swift, IMO. Going by the specs and speculations, they cannot price it at the same price range of old Swift.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

Well, that was long back, the market has moved on. And didn't the newer models suffer because of that? (read Alto & Astar; Alto picked up only after the repositioning by MSIL).

The A-Star/Alto serves a different set of customers. The customers who need a cheap reliable car. They are not the ones who care if its got a EPS/HPS or a hard/soft dampers. They just need a car. When the Alto thats proven over a long time and also costs cheaper, they would go with that! The moment Alto gets written off, the A-Star sales will start picking up. Nothing to do with the old/new models.

Exactly what I said. Look at the Verna, selling the Accent along side has affected it big time from becoming a stellar success. Compare the Verna to the Dzire sales. It is no where and now its going to be replaced, but the old Accent still lives on. Irony isn't it?

There is nothing to do with irony here dude. The Accent top end costs exactly a lakh less than the base variant of the Verna. Both serve different segment of customers and the Verna sale dip I believe is due to the new Verna thats coming in soon. This is more like the Fiesta Classic Vs New Fiesta. I wouldnt expect the New Fiesta to sell more than the number of Fiesta Classics.

A Good point there. But will MSIL really like its new hatchback fighting a MS sedan? With the talk to a sub 4 meter Dzire (with a lower price tag), where will that leave the Gen 2 Swift? The Old Swift will still go strong but the new one will suffer in the long run. And what will a cheaper Swift do to the other MSIL cars in B segment? I think, it will be too much of a hassle and unwanted headache for MSIL. Better if they go all out behind the Gen 2, to make it the success that the current Swift is/ was.

What if there is no choice? The New Swift would require considerable amount of investment since there is lot more that has changed compared to the current gen Swift. What If the New Swift attracts a cost hike of 40K as rumored here, what would MSIL do?

Taking the old Swift off the market would create a void in their portfolio as well! Having the New Swift as a premium hatch makes sense to me! Your thoughts dude!

[deetjohn]

Holly! What have I brought up!

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Note that a tail-attached weird looking DZire didn't affect the brand 'Swift'. So, addition of one more model will not affect it, provided, Maruti don't offer any discounts on the older model. They may not need to do that because Swift is still in good demand.

At present, the Dzire is costlier than the Swift by around 70K and 85K in the Petrol and Diesel guise respectively. And if the Gen 2 is positioned bang in the middle, won't the Dzire look a better proposition for the ordinary Joe (who makes up the numbers for MSIL) with respect to Gen 2?

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

But Maruti has successfully done that with the Alto brand. Maruti can avoid a big overlap of old and new Swift by giving only Lxi, LDi, VXi and VDi versions in old model, and only VXi, VDi, ZXi and ZDi in new models.

Maruti discontinued the old Wagon-R because they were able to price the new model at almost the same price point of the old one. That's not the case with Swift, IMO. Going by the specs and speculations, they cannot price it at the same price range of old Swift.

I somehow cannot understand the logic here. What purpose will it serve other than creating unwanted confusion for the buyers and the marketing & sales guys? And think about the logistical nightmare and poor economies of scale. Remember, the cost per car will come down drastically with volume. If given equal or more volume than the current Swift, MSIL will be able to pull off the Gen 2 at a not so higher price than the current Swift. Better for us customers as well!

Originally Posted by anachronix

The A-Star/Alto serves a different set of customers. The customers who need a cheap reliable car. They are not the ones who care if its got a EPS/HPS or a hard/soft dampers. They just need a car. When the Alto thats proven over a long time and also costs cheaper, they would go with that! The moment Alto gets written off, the A-Star sales will start picking up. Nothing to do with the old/new models.

Why wait for the old model to die to start making numbers & money on a brand new model when one can start from Day 1?

Originally Posted by anachronix

There is nothing to do with irony here dude. The Accent top end costs exactly a lakh less than the base variant of the Verna. Both serve different segment of customers and the Verna sale dip I believe is due to the new Verna thats coming in soon. This is more like the Fiesta Classic Vs New Fiesta. I wouldnt expect the New Fiesta to sell more than the number of Fiesta Classics.

Hasn't Hyundai brought it up on themselves? They wanted both the Accent and Verna to co exist and that made the Verna that much more expensive.

Originally Posted by anachronix

What if there is no choice? The New Swift would require considerable amount of investment since there is lot more that has changed compared to the current gen Swift. What If the New Swift attracts a cost hike of 40K as rumored here, what would MSIL do?
Taking the old Swift off the market would create a void in their portfolio as well! Having the New Swift as a premium hatch makes sense to me! Your thoughts dude!

Again, economies of scale, my friend. If there is only one Swift, it will simply do more numbers thereby reducing the cost per car for MSIL. If MSIL keeps only the Gen 2, they will make more money from that project which will justify the investment.

And let’s just wait for a few more weeks before speculating further, we will have all the answers.

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

At present, the Dzire is costlier than the Swift by around 70K and 85K in the Petrol and Diesel guise respectively. And if the Gen 2 is positioned bang in the middle, won't the Dzire look a better proposition for the ordinary Joe (who makes up the numbers for MSIL) with respect to Gen 2?

Definitely. But Maruti won't care about that because both are their products and whichever sells, it adds to their kitty. And who knows if Maruti adds much more confusion by readying two DZires also - the current one being shortened under 4m length, and a new one based on the new Swift with a length of 4.2m and is priced around 6 to 7L?

Originally Posted by deetjohn

What purpose will it serve other than creating unwanted confusion for the buyers and the marketing & sales guys? And think about the logistical nightmare and poor economies of scale. Remember, the cost per car will come down drastically with volume. If given equal or more volume than the current Swift, MSIL will be able to pull of the Gen 2 at a not so higher price than the current Swift. Better for us customers as well!

Maruti already creates a lot of confusion in the customers' mind by giving more than 10 models in the 2 - 6L category. What is serious in having one more confusion?

Regarding economies of scale: It's absolutely clear that none of these car companies are passing this benefit to the customer. Otherwise, they would have reduced the cost of a particular model once its total sales numbers reach a particular break-even limit, or, monthly sales reach a particular limit so that they can comfortably reduce the price. Most of the cars here - whether it is Alto, Wagon-R, Swift, i10, i20 - have started slowly but attained the sales figures at the current level after a period of time. Then why their cost didn't reduce, going by the 'economies of scale'?

[CARDEEP]

The new Swift is rated as the safest supermini in UK, scoring 62% for pedestrian safety (third highest score), 82% for child protection (up with the best) & 94% for adult protection (clear winner in this test). Here is the link:

Superminis

No doubt it will be amongst the safest cars in India as well.

[deetjohn]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

And who knows if Maruti adds much more confusion by readying two DZires also - the current one being shortened under 4m length, and a new one based on the new Swift with a length of 4.2m and is priced around 6 to 7L?

But isn't the market rumour the other way round, that the Dzire based on the Gen 2 to be less than 4m. So how will it work then?

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Regarding economies of scale: It's absolutely clear that none of these car companies are passing this benefit to the customer. Otherwise, they would have reduced the cost of a particular model once its total sales numbers reach a particular break-even limit, or, monthly sales reach a particular limit so that they can comfortably reduce the price. Most of the cars here - whether it is Alto, Wagon-R, Swift, i10, i20 - have started slowly but attained the sales figures at the current level after a period of time. Then why their cost didn't reduce, going by the 'economies of scale'?

You got me wrong there. I didn't mean it that way. It is not like, as and when the cost per car reduces for a particular manufacturer, that benefit will be passed down to the customer. Rather, the introductory price of a new model is arrived based on these calculations. Like, the total investment required, monthly volume and cash flow, cost of manufacturing, break even point etc.

So the logic is simple, if there is only one Swift (i.e. the Gen 2), it will simply do more volume than if it were to co exist with the current one leading to better economies of scale for MSIL on Gen 2. So then, MSIL will start making money (read profit) on the Gen 2 earlier and they can afford to start with a lower price tag for the car.

I think, the Swift deserves to have more varients. Heck, it sells more than 10K+ every month with just 7 varients in Petrol & Diesel (including the VXi with ABS into the mix) put together. This way the Swift Gen 2 will be able to fight off both the humble Figo and the well equiped i20/ Punto.

[StarrySky]

Although 800/Zen/Alto/A-star were sold alongside, they 'looked' different. MSIL positioned them as new cars or new models and not a refreshed version of the old model. So the general public saw them as new cars and hence did not mind paying a premium for the "new" car. Problem with Gen-2 Swift is that it looks very much like the outgoing Swift. So MSIL cannot market it as a new model. I guess MSIL has no option other than to let the old Swift die.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

Again, economies of scale, my friend. If there is only one Swift, it will simply do more numbers thereby reducing the cost per car for MSIL. If MSIL keeps only the Gen 2, they will make more money from that project which will justify the investment.

You should also keep in mind that the Figo has started to eat away into the sales of the current Swift sales by being 20-30K cheaper & with a decent waiting period.

The new Swift if its going to cost more than the current Swift as its rumored then its going to give more sales for the Figo and also create a void between the Ritz & the Swift by quite a margin which is not basically the way MSIl does business. They like a price overlap between their own portfolio and thats possible only if the old Swift was left alone!

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

But isn't the market rumour the other way round, that the Dzire based on the Gen 2 to be less than 4m. So how will it work then?

As I mentioned, that was my expectation!

The original news was that Suzuki is readying an international entry level sedan based on the new Swift, with 4.2m length, but India will get a 4m version.

Originally Posted by deetjohn

So the logic is simple, if there is only one Swift (i.e. the Gen 2), it will simply do more volume than if it were to co exist with the current one leading to better economies of scale for MSIL on Gen 2. So then, MSIL will start making money (read profit) on the Gen 2 earlier and they can afford to start with a lower price tag for the car.

It's not that I'm not agreeing with your points. What I'm saying is that the number of customers keeping away from Swift when there is only one Swift which is priced higher than the current model, will be more than those who opt for a Swift when two models are sold side-by-side, in which one is cheaper and the other is a premium car.

[ravib]

I booked for Swift VDI ABS and later to be transferred to Gen2 Swift 2011 model.

I got a Maruti Order Number as SOBxxxxxxxx.

Is there any way to track the status of the order? Any one knows any links?

-Ravi

[tj123]

Originally Posted by ravib

I booked for Swift VDI ABS and later to be transferred to Gen2 Swift 2011 model.

I got a Maruti Order Number as SOBxxxxxxxx.

Is there any way to track the status of the order? Any one knows any links?

-Ravi

Hi Ravi, can let me know who is your dealer in Bangalore ? about 2 weeks back the dealer near to my place ,Bimal motors was not very sure about the new Swift bookings.

[ravib]

Originally Posted by tj123

Hi Ravi, can let me know who is your dealer in Bangalore ? about 2 weeks back the dealer near to my place ,Bimal motors was not very sure about the new Swift bookings.

It is Bimal only, from old airport road.

-Ravi