[architect]

Originally Posted by sidindica

Imagine a customer walking in and he has to choose between 10 linea variants, 10 punto variants, 13 vista variants and 8 manza variants. (inclusing the t-jet, t-jet plus and vista 1.4 safire 90 ps).

Total confusion, chaos and huge product overlap.

It's not just confusion. Take the case of MSIL. It sells 6 hatchbacks in the 2.5-6 lakh category in a BS-III city (800, Alto, WagonR, Estilo, Ritz, Swift) with n number of variants. But, having learnt its lesson from the time the Alto VXi and WagonR were cannibalising each other, it has a specific target audience for both. A Swift buyer doesn't buy the Ritz because he is informed what the Swift is about.

Now look at Tata-Fiat. How many ads of the Fiat Linea mention that it's "powerful" VGT engine can smoke the Verna in a 40-100 4th gear run? How many ads mention that Linea has the best handling-ride combination below 15 lakhs? In other words, where is the USP of the product? I understand that they are claiming better FE (who isn't, thanks to ARAI figures now) and cheaper parts because that has been there weak area. But that is only for removing doubts about the older negative perception of Fiats. Where is the USP as opposed to the Manza?

If Fiat does not mention where the GP is different from the Vista and the Linea is different from the Manza, it won't sell. Why? because both the latter are substantially cheaper than the former. Simple.

Target 1 should be not to let the customer leave the showroom, have something for everyone, like Maruti.

Target 2 should be let the customer decide himself which car suits him. Highlight the high points of each car. The Manza is spacious, the Fiat is a great handler (with, finally, a powerful engine, it seems).

Anyway, this should on sidindicas Tata-Fiat JV thread. It's just that there was so much speculation and discussion on 0-100 timings and leather seats out here that I couldn't help mentioning what I think is a bigger blight. Else, Fiat will just end up with another over-rated launch like the Punto 90 HP in its hands.

My suggestions to Tata-Fiat:
Drop the 75 HP MJD in all cars except maybe on base version of the Vista (for cabs, since I have been seeing many yellow plate Vista TDI base models in Delhi).

Dropping the 75 HP MJD will also be a key differentiator from the MSIL engines and a trump card for Tata.

Tune the 90 HP Punto properly with better gear ratios to make it at par with i20.

Make the 1.4 TJet standard on Linea. Retain Safire 90 for Manza, if at all.

Make the 1.4 Petrol standard on Punto and Vista. Remove the 1.2 Safire from both Punto and Vista. There is a Xeta which can have a 1.2 Safire for entry-level Indicas, if drivetrain shoe-horn is possible.

[Palio_2005]

Another issue with Tata-Fiat combination is somewhat reluctance of the sales people to sell a Fiat. It's as if they have been forced to. When I was evaluating a Linea and walked into the showroom, the GM inspite of knowing that I own a Palio (have met him on several Palio Users Group meets) and a die hard Fiat fan is trying to sell the Manza to me saying I get everything that the Linea has and available at 1 lakh less.

I do not think T-jet will have any impact on the Fiat sales as Architect has rightly put it. The problem is not with the cars but the way how Tata Motors is positioning the cars and making the efforts to sell.

Fiat has long lost the game, when they gave the right to sell and service the car to a rival car maker. If they had to they should have tied with likes of Maruti or Hyundai instead of Tata Motors who themselves have no clue about selling and servciing quality vehicles.

I really feel sorry for Punto and Linea (not Fiat but the cars) as they desrve much better. Just imagine these cars and technology in hands of some one like Suzuki or Hyundai

[architect]

Originally Posted by Palio_2005

the GM ..... is trying to sell the Manza to me saying I get everything that the Linea has and available at 1 lakh less.

That is the crux of the problem. If even the dealers think in this manner, how will they ever manage to get the customer to plonk in extra money for a Fiat?

There is another issue here, but that's too long for discussion on this thread: How do you make a purely enthusiasts car and then sell it in the affordable segment?

It's a cycle: affordable enthusiasts car leads to low sales, low sales leads to dilution of the enthusiast character (FE- oriented engines etc), dilution of enthusiast character leads to competition with the jack-of-all-trades cars, competition of a diluted enthusiast car in the jack-of-all-trade market always leads to the former losing ground. This is the story of Fiat India. In a way, even the Ford Fiesta went through this cycle (the TDCi is a diluted driver's car which lost to Verna in terms of sales), but its loss was not as huge as Fiats because it did not have its rivals sitting in the same showroom.

[EARTHed]

We all love FIATs. Hence all these discussions. I hope Fiat reads the above posts and learn something.

As this is the Fiat Linea T-Jet thread, lets stay On-Topic.

3days to go for the launch!

[jagan0677]

Originally Posted by architect

That is the crux of the problem. If even the dealers think in this manner, how will they ever manage to get the customer to plonk in extra money for a Fiat?

There is another issue here, but that's too long for discussion on this thread: How do you make a purely enthusiasts car and then sell it in the affordable segment?

It's a cycle: affordable enthusiasts car leads to low sales, low sales leads to dilution of the enthusiast character (FE- oriented engines etc), dilution of enthusiast character leads to competition with the jack-of-all-trades cars, competition of a diluted enthusiast car in the jack-of-all-trade market always leads to the former losing ground. This is the story of Fiat India. In a way, even the Ford Fiesta went through this cycle (the TDCi is a diluted driver's car which lost to Verna in terms of sales), but its loss was not as huge as Fiats because it did not have its rivals sitting in the same showroom.

Sorry to go offtopic. I am not sure the issue of pushing sales is as complicated as we make it out to be.

What I suspect is FIAT has priced cars so aggressively, that there is not sufficient margin potential for dealers. Drilling a bit further, it could be the margin potential for dealer is satisfactory, but for salesperson is not satisfactory. Maybe, maybe. This is just my hunch.

On the contrary, some other manufacturers, leave sufficient money on the table for dealer, or maybe even, salesperson. Again, assumption.

AS an example, even for the enthusiast car, I think above strategy can promote good numbers.

Maybe somebody in the know can highlight. Or some MBA?

Cheers
Jagan.

[sunnyside]

I dont think its a margin issue, its most probably a focus issue. And maybe Tata dealer employees feel that their primary loyality is towards TATA brands.

[PaddleShifter]

Great news:
Acc to one friend, Autolinks told him that T-Jet will be priced 15k more than current Linea.
And T-Jet+ will be 40-50k more than T-Jet.
Hope he'll update us more with his post soon.

[Klub Class]

Originally Posted by PaddleShifter

Acc to one friend, Autolinks told him that T-Jet will be priced 15k more than current Linea.
And T-Jet+ will be 40-50k more than T-Jet.
Hope he'll update us more with his post soon.

Whoa! That sounds great PaddleShifter! I'm waiting for more updates from you brother.

Let me pray and hope that this information is true. If this info is to be believed, then Fiat has done a great job. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Only, two more days to go.

Amith

[firstguri]

Originally Posted by Speed Pujari

Then one coconut is going to be saved LOL!.. Fiat has understood the typical indian mentality. The pricing has to be right or it can blow another impact on the brand if the overly loaded car is under priced.

Over loaded car and under priced= blow up. No sir, the current Fiats didn't bomb because of that, they didn't do that well coz that under pricing led to a drop in quality standards. From my understanding I think any car under priced in India would do extremely well provided the standards are maintained.

Originally Posted by Speed Pujari

I think with Fiat people will expect 120% perfection (they can live with 70-80% perfection with maruti, 75% perfection with Hyundai and 45% perfection with Honda).

I would say a Honda with no perfection will also do well in India.

Originally Posted by sidindica

Very correct. Imagine a customer walking in and he has to choose between 10 linea variants, 10 punto variants, 13 vista variants and 8 manza variants. (inclusing the t-jet, t-jet plus and vista 1.4 safire 90 ps).

Total confusion, chaos and huge product overlap. And many variants hardly sell. This is just marketing at its worst. Adding more variants to increase sales is not really the best thing to do. It only adds to pressure and confusion and some dealers have limited showroom space to sell all the products. .

C'mon Sid', do you actually think that having more variants kills the products! On the contrary I think in that way you cover all the bases. Rather than having a gap of 1 Lakh between variants I would prefer two with a 50K gap. Also I think when people go to a Tata-Fiat dealership they already have their minds made up on what they're going for. And in our case- our dealer has a separate sales area for both Tata and Fiat cars. The Fiat area is 10 times more upmarket than that of Tata. Any unaware person (w.r.t. Fiat) would immediately come to know that Fiat's are a grade higher than Tata upon seeing the difference in the sales area. But of course that is our dealer, I understand that it may not be the case with others. As such I guess rather than pushing for separation from Tata motors, that some people have been suggesting here, a separate and more upmarket sales area next to the Tata cars is a better bet than anything else.

[jagan0677]

Is the launch still restricted to Mumbai,Pune and NCR.
I personally feel FIAT will miss out some good numbers by leaving out cities like Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai and Cochin.

[PaddleShifter]

@Jagan- I read at another forum(quoted 1-2 pages back in my post) that T-Jet will be available in rest of India from November onwards.

[ntrack]

Originally Posted by jagan0677

Sorry to go offtopic. I am not sure the issue of pushing sales is as complicated as we make it out to be.

What I suspect is FIAT has priced cars so aggressively, that there is not sufficient margin potential for dealers. Drilling a bit further, it could be the margin potential for dealer is satisfactory, but for salesperson is not satisfactory. Maybe, maybe. This is just my hunch.

On the contrary, some other manufacturers, leave sufficient money on the table for dealer, or maybe even, salesperson. Again, assumption.

AS an example, even for the enthusiast car, I think above strategy can promote good numbers.

Maybe somebody in the know can highlight. Or some MBA?

Cheers
Jagan.

Of what I've heard (I personally know a MP based dealer), dealers make more money selling Fiats & so do salespersons. If given a free hand, dealers would rather opt to sell more of Fiats than Tatas.

[sidindica]

Colours on Linea T-Jet

• sunbeam beige
• bossa nova white
• hip hop black
• fox trot azure
• tuscan wine

Variants:

• t-jet with 195/60 R 15 tyres with full wheel cover,chrome exhaust tip. other features same as linea emotion pack variant.
• t-jet plus gains 205/55 R 16 tyres with alloy wheels, leather interiors and chrome lined interiors.

[EARTHed]

Originally Posted by sidindica

[*]t-jet with 195/60 R 15 tyres with full wheel cover,chrome exhaust tip. other features same as linea emotion pack variant.[/list]

Does this mean that T-Jet EP has no alloy wheels?
Thanks Sid for the updates.

[sidindica]

Originally Posted by EARTHed

Does this mean that T-Jet EP has no alloy wheels?
Thanks Sid for the updates.

no. Price is said to be "very competitive".