[drifter]

Yeah like i said ... im waiting for the airbags to become standard after the governments intervention. That feature alone will cut down fatalities by a considerable margin.

Secondly, a safety feature like ABS will help you if other things remain ideal. If you lose control and run into the back of a truck which is carrying oversized steel rods that protrude out for about a meter, it doesnt matter whether you have ABS or EBD - you're a goner.

ESC - electronic stability control...its there for that exact reason that you dont loose control and run into the back of a volvo.

But above all...defensive driving....you can never be too careful on these roads.

I agree ... better roads are need...more education is needed....
And going by my experience...in India eventually you are going to hit something....So in my opinion we need these safety features more than anyone else around the world.

ABS and EBD are there to avoid accidents right? Dont we want that?
Cars with ABS or EBD are more likely to have near misses or close encounters which otherwise in case of lesser cars would certainly result in accidents.

I think we need ourselves more than god to help us. The driver is the best safety feature in any car. But i would like the other features to complement the driver in case he fails...

Human after all...its bound to happen sometime or the other.

Drifter

[muni]

I would have to say that though most of us believe that these options do make a difference, the problem lies in the fact that these features are not standard

These features shud come as standard and not part of the top of the line models that the manufacturers offer.

As shant2nu said if the vehicle has the safety features, is not the one that he is lookin for, what is the point in buying when it doesnt serve the very purpose of buying them.

We will be willing to pay the extra sum for the safety features only when it comes as a standard features across all the variants. I dont mind paying extra for the base model also if it is part of the standard equipment.

Another thing is that the ppl who buy the cars equipped with these features, are they really well versed with how the systems work ..for example the ABS..i guess not. The ABS can create a potential situation if you do not know how to use it.

For this the government shud act and make airbags/ABS/other related features compulsory but it is not that easy as it looks cos of our economy,average owners financial capabilty and the lack of value for life in a broader sense.

As a solution, how about the government helping the customers go for these features by reducing the lifetime road tax on vehicles by few thousands and also the insurance premiums. Does it make sense..in a way it does i feel.

Though we may keep arguing endlessly the practical usage of these features, i still have to say that they can make the difference in a potential situation.

[v1p3r]

Diana did not have airbags in the rear seats of her S Class. Three of them died because they were not wearing seatbelts, and if we believe certain sources, the driver's blood was less plasma and more whisky.

ABS DOES help you stop in a shorter distance. On dusty/slippery roads such as India, ABS would certainly cut short braking distances for the "average driver", who might otherwise lock his brakes and skid.

[msprabhakar]

Originally Posted by muni

...As a solution, how about the government helping the customers go for these features by reducing the lifetime road tax on vehicles by few thousands and also the insurance premiums. Does it make sense..in a way it does i feel...

I would say, it makes a lot of sense to a company like Bosch... for the rest of aam janta, it's atrocious! You can't put a cart before the horse, or ABS/EBD/AB before our 007 drivers (licensed to kill)!

[Shan2nu]

ABS DOES help you stop in a shorter distance. On dusty/slippery roads such as India, ABS would certainly cut short braking distances for the "average driver", who might otherwise lock his brakes and skid.

Not in all conditions. While ABS might help on wet roads and icy roads, it actually takes a longer distance to stop in gravel, mud and snow.

When wheels lock up, they tend to dig into the gravel/mud/snow and create a sort of resistance to vehicle velocity.

ABS is mainly designed to prevent locking, so that you're always in control of the vehicle. But, unless the driver has the presence of mind to steer away and not just sit there with the foot pedal welded to the floor, he ain't gonna make it.

It's not that people don't want these features on their cars. But when companies aren't offering any for the vehicle you might be buying, you've left with no choice.

The government should make it mandatory for all vehicles to offer atleast ABS and Airbags, failing which they shall not be allowed to sell that vehicle in the country. As long as the government doesn't take such a stern step, the people cannot be blamed.

And unlike seatbelts, ABS and Airbags are active whether you like it or not.

PS: Here's something you might be interested in reading.

On high-traction surfaces such as bitumen, whether wet or dry, most ABS-equipped cars are able to attain braking distances better (i.e. shorter) than those that would be easily possible without the benefit of ABS. An alert skilled driver without ABS should be able, through the use of techniques like cadence braking, to match or improve on the performance of a typical driver with an ABS-equipped vehicle. However, for a majority of drivers, in most conditions, in typical states of alertness, ABS will reduce their chances of crashing, and/or the severity of impact. The recommended technique for non-expert drivers in an ABS-equipped car, in a typical full-braking emergency, is to press the brake pedal as firmly as possible and, where appropriate, to steer around obstructions. In such situations, ABS will significantly reduce the chances of a skid and subsequent loss of control.

In gravel and snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring. Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock. The primary benefit of ABS on such surfaces is to increase the ability of the driver to maintain control of the car rather than go into a skid—though loss of control remains more likely on soft surfaces like gravel or slippery surfaces like snow or ice. On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on detecting individual wheels skidding). Availability of ABS should not deter drivers from learning to master cadence braking.

A Finnish car magazine, Tekniikan Maailma, tested a VW Golf V fitted with non-studded Continental ContiVikingContact 3 tires.

Braking distance from 80-0 km/h - locked wheels - ABS
dry pavement - 45m - 32m
snow - 53m - 64m
ice - 255m - 404m


Shan2nu

[drifter]

True but where in India do we get ice and snow? Apart from some regions...majority of the country doesnt have to contend with this sort of terrain. From an Indian view-point ABS and all other related features are a must.

Drifter

[Shan2nu]

From an Indian view-point ABS and all other related features are a must.

ABS is a must in every country. Question is, when is the government gonna realise this.

If i could get ABS on a Innova G3 (even as an option), i wouldn't have complained. But, how do you buy something that doesn't exist?

Shan2nu

[sbasak]

ABS & EBD will make very little use in Indian roads! Indian roads are not smooth. It's often wavy. Moreover, what will happen if ABS fails or you drive a different car which doen't have ABS? More "tech help" you'll take, less powerful will be your own drive. If you continue to drive a car with all these ABS/EBD/ESC/TCS etc. you'll feel insecured in driving/riding a car which doesn't have all these. Moreover, having these features in your car might provoke you to drive more recklessly than normal - thus bringing danger to other road users.

Recently some activists in Europe are campaigning for banning 4x4 cars from city centres. They argue that because of robustness of 4x4 cars, their drivers drive more dangerously (knowing than they will be safe in case of accidents) than others - thus often causing accidents where other parties mostly get hurt.

If you can ban autos, cycle rickshaws, cycle vans, bullock carts etc. from highways - it will be more effective than ABS!

Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without?


ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and many systems will shorten stopping distances on dry roads. On very soft surfaces, such as loose gravel or unpacked snow, an ABS system may actually lengthen stopping distances. In wet or slippery conditions, you should still make sure you drive carefully, always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of you, and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions.



Ref: [/size][size=2][color=#0000ff]http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/Equipment/absbrakes.html[/color][/size]

[drifter]

If i could get ABS on a Innova G3 (even as an option), i wouldn't have complained. But, how do you buy something that doesn't exist?

Exactly thats why we have to wait till our good ol' government does something about it.

Drifter

[ajmat]

Airbags have no benefit....................unless used with a safety belt - scares me seeing kids in skoda's etc sitting on someones lap

[msprabhakar]

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

...The government should make it mandatory for all vehicles to offer atleast ABS and Airbags, failing which they shall not be allowed to sell that vehicle in the country. As long as the government doesn't take such a stern step, the people cannot be blamed...

Thank you, Shantanu, for enabling a good discussion. I guess we are getting a bit too fundamental on the issue of ABS/EBD/AB. Most of us here opposing an excessive dose of prescriptive safety measures do not doubt the absolute safety value of these features-- we only question its relative utility in current Indian context.

I strongly oppose any thoughts of Govt prescribing these measures down our throats till they take care of their fundamental responsibilities: (1) building good, safe roads and (2) implementing a good quality of driving licensing practice. Remember I said 'practice' and not 'system', since we have a very good system on paper.

I was using seat belts ever since they were available and became a laughing stock to my neighbours who thought I was 'showing off' my foreign experience, till the SC ruling came in 2001. In Kolkata recently, I hired an Amby taxi and the driver asked me to keep an apology for a seat belt on my lap, running across my chest! Tell me, without a good monitoring system, which prescription will work? Take this argument further beyong roads and cars... Should Govt prescribe personal arms and ammunition for its citizens' safety, just because its law and order machinery is not effective or efficient?

Safety is a controversial subject. Nobody can vociferously argue against it for emotional reasons. Yet there is a price associated with it. The question is one of tradeoff, of priorities.

India's enormous military expenditures were justified by successive governments on emotional issues. Yet, everybody knew that alternative solutions to peace would have channelised a poor nation's resources to economic prosperity.

Safety is essential. I will value my life and that of others for what they are worth regardless of prescriptions. Objective education and awareness is key. Leave the rest to individual maturity.

[Deeps]

Originally Posted by sbasak

Recently some activists in Europe are campaigning for banning 4x4 cars from city centres. They argue that because of robustness of 4x4 cars, their drivers drive more dangerously (knowing than they will be safe in case of accidents) than others - thus often causing accidents where other parties mostly get hurt.

Well, the same could be said for public buses and 18 wheelers (yes, they are allowed to cross the heart of the city in some countries). But no one complains about those.


Coming back to the topic of safety. I've always felt that the consumers muct take the initiative of demanding greater safety equipment in cars. But in a place like India, its only govt. interference that can bring about safer cars. The govt' priority in this regard should be to sponsor driving schools which are able to educate/train drivers properly. This would definitely go a long way in improving the chances of one getting home safely after work.

[Shan2nu]

Airbags have no benefit....................unless used with a safety belt - scares me seeing kids in skoda's etc sitting on someones lap

True, unless used properly, airbags can take away life that could have been saved had they not been there.

So, sitting in a car with airbags and not wearing a seatbelt is worse than sitting in a car without airbags and wearing your setbelt.

Exactly thats why we have to wait till our good ol' government does something about it.

That's exactly the reason why we don't wait, coz we know the government ain't gonna do anything about it.

Shan2nu

[drifter]

That's exactly the reason why we don't wait, coz we know the government ain't gonna do anything about it.

It will, it will....have faith.

Drifter

[aseem]

See I dont see why make airbags and ABS mandatory in a country where still mothers carry two children on scooter without helmet. I guess those who can afford ABS and Airbags own car that come with it already.
If government was to make Airbags and ABS mandatory they should also make a rule for children on two wheelers, how to handle their safety? Dont get me wrong, I am all in for safety. However Indian auto makers spend more time on advertizing their biege interiors than their safety ratings.