[rjalihal]

Originally Posted by aby

Excuse me... since when did govt. get OBLIGATED to provide everyone a parking spot. I thought car in India is still a luxury for 80% of the population. So Govt. is obligated to take care of them.

All they need to do is make all residential areas no parking zone between 10 pm to morning and give the local beat constables power to lock the wheels of cars which are parked on the roads in the night. Yes someone might get away bribing the thulla, but ultimately it will add to his/her cost of owning the car. Similarly install meters in commercial areas which penalize long (> 5hr) parking. With some arrangements for visitors coming to city from outside in cars (like temporary tickets at a cost) , this can be implemented without the law itself.

In short make parking on road a really expensive affair. It will have multiple benefits of getting much needed revenue to cash starved municipalities as well as reducing the rate at which cars are being added to an already clogged roads.

IMO buying a car without provisioning for parking is irresponsible as you are expecting others to take care of it.

Hey, i suggest you read from the 1st thread before posting. If you have been following, i was replying to particular post with regards to government and safety. Who mentioned anything about parking? Please refrain from replying to random postings without having a clear understanding of what was being debated earlier. However, it is the duty of the local authorities to make sure there is sufficient parking space.

I also agree with YZFRG. Making a residential area road a no parking zone is completely pointless. It is like saying, "ok you can have a house but can't live in it". Parking can be allowed on road side as long as the road is wide enough. NOw this opens a new topic, our roads are narrow. Well, we vote for the government who make big promises but fail to deliver much. SO we should blame them for this breakdown in proper urban planning. We need better planned suburbs. As for parking charges, i think the current charge is fair enough. Besides I thing its lame to install parking meters on residential roads! I mean who does that? Go ahead, buy a car, park it on the road/garage/basement/open space, as long as there is no "No Parking" sign board. Call me arrogant, but when there is dearth of space, we have to make do with what we have. Perhaps future planners will realise this and rectify the situation.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by prateek99

Btw, what were you doing clicking such snaps? Seems you gauged the problem way back in 2005.

I was associated with the Aizawl - Lunglei road project as a highways designer. These photos are just sample of over 800 photos of the then existing road. Ironically the road which was upgradation of the existing road, was to ease the traffic on the NH.

Originally Posted by yzfrj

Since you are blaming everyone else but the "Government"

Its even more sad that you still believe its the "citizen's" responsibility to provide the basic infrastructure.

If you have a one room tenantment and you family increase from two to twenty, do you expect the government provide you extra living space on the road? Similarly when you have a vehicle you should also budget in the garage & parking costs.

Originally Posted by rjalihal

However, it is the duty of the local authorities to make sure there is sufficient parking space.

The responsibility of the government is to ensure parking at the commercial and recreational areas. Parking at home should be the home owners responsibility. Until and unless the government plans residential areas with ample common parking space. That of course is not possible in the older parts of any city.

I feel that this thread is digressing from the original posting. Analysing the situation as a professional associated with Traffic Planning and Highway Design, I can foresee that if the "free for all" tendencies in acquiring vehicles persists without corresponding upgradation of the infrastructure; whether government or private; all of us loose out in the end, as there will be no space to drive the vehicles.

[aby]

Originally Posted by yzfrj

Since you are blaming everyone else but the "Government"
Kindly be advised its not the common man who made the "cash starves municipalities" its the same Government.

Sorry my friend, you are indulging in what I would say the classic Indian malaise of blaming everyone except ourselves. Lack living space, blame the authorities for not providing one. So you lack parking space, blame the authorities for not providing one. Pray what you have done to solve the problem?

Yes Municipalities are cash starved? But haven't we as citizens opposed everything that has been proposed to increase revenue.

And when someone takes steps to create a solution (which admittedly is far from perfect) we take the cudgels because we personally are affected?

Instead of preventing illegal constructions/encroachments and not to forget idiotic and in some cases "cave man" style planning, Slapping on a new "no parking" law is utter stupidity and at best can be described a "quick and cheap fix"

But a fix nevertheless. What do you expect the planners to do in localities which were built 20 years ago when cars were a luxury of super-rich rather than a middle class necessity now.

Its even more sad that you still believe its the "citizen's" responsibility to provide the basic infrastructure.

We vote and elect the so called "leaders" and pay income tax, road tax and what not tax so that the "Government" will provide the basic infrastructure.

Sorry a citizen is expected to take care of himself and his belongings. Providing for infrastructure cannot mean that Govt. should provide personal parking spaces for everyone. Where did the concept of personal responsibility go?

Heck even if Govt decides to make a rule saying all buildings have to have a parking space, is it fair to those who don't own a car or don't plan to? Why should they suffer. Isn't it logical to expect people who own cars to provide for space.

Badly planned residential areas, roads, city centers, streets, roads.
Who do you think payed for it ?
Who do you think is responsible for this mess ?

Again isn't it the same thing... the problem is elsewhere, not me.

[yzfrj]

Originally Posted by Aroy

If you have a one room tenantment and you family increase from two to twenty, do you expect the government provide you extra living space on the road? Similarly when you have a vehicle you should also budget in the garage & parking costs.

Your analogy is funny.
Putting it simply, its meaningless.

Originally Posted by aby

Sorry my friend,

I don't even know who you are. I don't think we are friends. IMO

Sorry a citizen is expected to take care of himself and his belongings. Providing for infrastructure cannot mean that Govt. should provide personal parking spaces for everyone. Where did the concept of personal responsibility go?

So everyone is a Country ?
I fail to see the logic behind your pointless bickering.
So it does't deserve any comment.

[phamilyman]

Aby, Aroy - Give it up. Like the movie title, everyone says I'm Fine.

yzfrj and rjalihal won't realize till the shoe is literally on the other foot, so to speak.

@yzfrj: You are grossly mistaken regarding residential parking spaces. Here is an aid to help you think - in delhi suburbs, a 180 sqyd plot costs >1cr min. 20 years back, most houses had one floor and only one car. Now its 2-3 floors, and 6-7 cars easily.

By your logic, do you expect the government to purchase extra land (in already populated colonies) because people are now building more rooms (vertically) and are keeping more cars?

How can the government create land out of thin air? Ergo, how does residential parking increase? Or the govt make way for others' parking by purchasing this crores worth of land & demolishing some houses to make extra parking in residential colonies?

And you may use labels like pointless bickering but Aroy's analogy was completely spot on.

[ramzsys]

A splurging population with disposable cash in hand in the chase for few natural resources(space) will always create chaos.

One cannot expect the people to be rational so that they will stop buying cars. Neither the people at the top in hierarchy will realise(before it is too late) that development wont come by increasing money circulation and creating capacity.

yzfrz, your arguments cant hold good in this resource-scarce country. Here in India, you have to be at the doorstep of the government and not the vice versa.

I regret going off topic here, but in my humblest opinion, Delhi is the city which will suffer the greatest loss of lives and property from an earthquake. One morning at 4.30 i witnessed a quake and in that panic i couldn't find a single place to be safe.

[zaks]

The best option would be to charge for overnight parking on the roads in the residential areas. They can give permits to the residents for a certain fee renewed on yearly basis.

Whether one likes it or not these 4 wheelers are gobbling up the precious city spaces without mercy.

[phamilyman]

@ram - good perspective.

I have another thought for you - alot of industry is connected with the government. Even petrol pumps, dealerships are owned by people with connections - everyone wants more spending, more activity!! Chaos, how do you spell that?

Interestingly said about delhi. Valid point really.

[aby]

Originally Posted by zaks

The best option would be to charge for overnight parking on the roads in the residential areas. They can give permits to the residents for a certain fee renewed on yearly basis.

Whether one likes it or not these 4 wheelers are gobbling up the precious city spaces without mercy.

Would be a good start. If the charge is proportional to the price of land where the car is parked, it will simply add to the cost of ownership of people without parking. A 200 sq ft of land (the space required to park a car) in prime residential area is worth Rs. 1 million to 2 million. If you charge a proportionate fee (few thousands a month), a good number of potential car buyers without their own parking will simply shelve their car purchase plans.

[yzfrj]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

@yzfrj: You are grossly mistaken regarding residential parking spaces. Here is an aid to help you think - in delhi suburbs, a 180 sqyd plot costs >1cr min. 20 years back, most houses had one floor and only one car. Now its 2-3 floors, and 6-7 cars easily.

By your logic, do you expect the government to purchase extra land (in already populated colonies) because people are now building more rooms (vertically) and are keeping more cars?

Did I say that ? Nope.
All I said was the development we have in not being "planned"
There are laws that says parking space has to be there for "new" commercial buildings, all that are taken care with greasing the right wheels.

All I'm saying is the ordinary citizen is at the receiving end.

So in your suggestion what is the solution ?
Burn the cars ?

Originally Posted by ramzsys

yzfrz, your arguments cant hold good in this resource-scarce country. Here in India, you have to be at the doorstep of the government and not the vice versa.

I think you meant me.
Its pathetic to hear a citizen say that.
We are citizens not beggars, begging for breadcrumbs from the Government.

[phamilyman]

My solution is not in limiting individual cars, but in making their usage prohibitively expensive through congestion tax and huge parking charges - together with a good public transport system.

Why do Europeans own less cars in their cities than Indians? Why?

Because there's no sense in owning a car when the public transport system works efficiently, and using a car is much more expensive and often slower mode than metro/trams.

Which is why, despite the pain, I appreciate initiatives like the BRT in delhi. Its definitely a pain - not as well/holistically implemented, but if you see - it benefits about 70% of the junta on the road - the aam aadmi traveling by bus - while all the cars with 1-2 occupants go clutch to clutch and often slower.

[@ri]

Originally Posted by yzfrj

Did I say that ? Nope.
All I said was the development we have in not being "planned"
There are laws that says parking space has to be there for "new" commercial buildings, all that are taken care with greasing the right wheels.

All I'm saying is the ordinary citizen is at the receiving end.

Rightly said! I realize this will be a deterrent to buying new cars. But how much will it help? Hardly any !
Reasons
1) Congestion on the roads are more because of Malls and Office complexes openning up directly onto the main roads (atleast in Bangalore) Ex: Inner ring road in front of Oasis mall, Banerghatta Road, and Mantri Mall, the list goes on !
2) Why would you want the traffic to go through the smaller streets in the first place ? They were not even designed for the same.
3) The highest number of vehicles parked on the road are (a) Autos , (b) Yellow board cabs, (c) BMTC bus !

Originally Posted by phamilyman

My solution is not in limiting individual cars, but in making their usage prohibitively expensive through congestion tax and huge parking charges - together with a good public transport system.

Why do Europeans own less cars in their cities than Indians? Why?

Because there's no sense in owning a car when the public transport system works efficiently, and using a car is much more expensive and often slower mode than metro/trams.

But what is important is the sequence how it is done! Get the public transport up and running first. I understand the government is doing what it can, but trust me it is just NO COMPARISON! Take the case of Germany, a nation literally destroyed in the World War but still today it has the best public transport and awesome roads and at the same time a pretty large number of vehicles as well !


Personally I do agree that a person buying a car is "obligated" to take care of the parking of the same (i.e. a garage) but for the issue that needs to be solved it is not these gimmicks that will help, but a drive from the government to prioritize and take steps which will have a bigger impact. Maybe if they can get BMTC to first ensure they have parking for all there buses, it could be a good starting point.

[speedmiester]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

My solution is not in limiting individual cars, but in making their usage prohibitively expensive through congestion tax and huge parking charges - together with a good public transport system.

Why do Europeans own less cars in their cities than Indians? Why?

Because there's no sense in owning a car when the public transport system works efficiently, and using a car is much more expensive and often slower mode than metro/trams.

Which is why, despite the pain, I appreciate initiatives like the BRT in delhi. Its definitely a pain - not as well/holistically implemented, but if you see - it benefits about 70% of the junta on the road - the aam aadmi traveling by bus - while all the cars with 1-2 occupants go clutch to clutch and often slower.

As you said there is a way and order in which such laws should be implemented.
1. Implement a good and efficient public transport system that runs late into the night.
2. Impose congestion charge and taxes to make owning a car a major expense.
3. Restrict car ownership based on space.

The reason I am opposing this law is because the govt is not even implemented the steps 1 and 2 effectively and straight away moved to step 3 which IMO is the major flaw.

As I said before if there are efficient and timely public transportation I will definitely don't mind walking 1 km everyday to avail the service. The lack of efficient public transport is what made me buy my second car even though I do not have a validated parking space.

[phamilyman]

Here we go again:
The Hindu : Andhra Pradesh / Hyderabad News : Vehicle density makes traffic crawl

The vehicular density in the city makes it as one of those with highest vehicles per km. As per the Hyderabad-City Development Plan under Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission (JNNURM), the vehicles density (passenger car units per km of road length) has Hyderabad scoring 723, a figure much higher than 242 of Mumbai and 293 of Chennai.

[blackasta]

Originally Posted by @ri

Take the case of Germany, a nation literally destroyed in the World War but still today it has the best public transport and awesome roads and at the same time a pretty large number of vehicles as well !

Well - you are a pretty optimistic person daring to compare German / Japanese work culture and ethics to Indian ones!!

There are 1001 ways they are superior than us Indians in work culture / work ethics / fairness / non corruption etc.

Our whole system is flawed - no point trying to get a particular portion right.