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Old 4th September 2010, 11:30   #31
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The first thing that Tata and Mahindra should fix on the priority basis is the quality of staff at the dealerships and better choice of people to be given dealerships.

I do not care how many useless gizmo's are in the car, what matters to me is the usefulness and reliability of electronic gizmo's. In our Scorpio VLX each and every additional function added over SLX has given trouble, everything including Cruise control, ABS, steering mounted buttons, Reversing sensors, TPMS etc. expect Auto wipers has given trouble atleast once. The clutch master cylinder has given up twice in peak hour traffic. Driving this SUV in monsoons is a pain because it throws all the water under the tires on windshield.

For now, no Tata and Mahindra vehicles for me(except may be a Nano someday).

Last edited by .anshuman : 4th September 2010 at 11:32.
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Old 4th September 2010, 20:45   #32
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I see this affair of trying to make their products more upscale similar to what Volkswagen did a few decades ago (Link: Volkswagen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

However, in Tata's case, I hope they have considered branding these cars as Jaguars/Land Rovers. They could do far better by moving them higher in positioning. It would not only help provide some spillover of brand value for tata but it would also not become an unnecessary distraction for a company that is largely positioned in the volume segment of the market. (Cant help but see the similarity with Maruti in the case of the Vitara/Kizashi)

In summary, i think the following must be considered:

1. They need to make a separate brand to be able to market these products - aka Honda/Acura Toyota/Lexus etc
2. They need to acheive the impossible with value - They have to exceed quality and practicality and at the same time beat competition in Price (case: Skoda Superb)
3. They have to not only solve the 'aspirational' expectations from the 10 Lakh + product but they will have to do the same with their lower products as well
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Old 5th September 2010, 00:34   #33
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Since there is already a Tata in our garage that costs more than a million rupees I guess I can comment here.

I probably won't buy the Aria at a million+ rupees. And the single largest factor that will keep me away from the Aria ? The After Sales Service.

Why am I saying this ? because I also have an Innova. And Tata's have a LONG way to go before they match Toyota in the After Sales Service department.

And when I talk about After Sales Service : I am not talking about the asthetics of the workshop, the size, number of bays, facilities etc. I am talking about the DNA of the people, their attitude, worksmanship, quality, attention to detail, customer centric philosophy of going about things, proactiveness etc.

When I give a 10 lac+ car for service, the service guys better treat her as if it's their own car. That is what is lacking in Tata's. The sense of belonging !!

Plastics, interior quality, fit & finish is a given : they HAVE to match it. If they don't : god help them. I am just assuming that the Aria is as good as the Innova from the inside. (I can give it some discount looking at where it is coming from)

P.S : I have had no experience with M&M so have not commented anything about them.
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Old 5th September 2010, 08:23   #34
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For me the ideal car from an Indian manufacturer will be one that is designed by Tata and Manufactured by Mahindra. I own a Scorpio and have been in a Safari numerous times. In my opinion setting aside quality issues, the Safar is a much better designed product despite the fact that it was lauched a couple of years before Scorpio. However, the poor fit and finish, quality issues have plauged Tata's and they are able to do volumes only in budget people movers like India & Sumo.

If Safari was manufactured by Mahindra, we would have had an excellent vehicle that has been well desiged and well put together vehicle that would give imported SUVs a run for their money.
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Old 5th September 2010, 16:07   #35
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Something that's priced above 10L should be aspirational.

When TATA and Mahindra are reaching new heights by pricing their flagship products at X% more price than their most expensive model in their current line up, I hope they increase their Sales + Service + Support experience by atleast this X %. Otherwise it's a disaster.
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Old 5th September 2010, 18:01   #36
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Originally Posted by GTO
Would you spend well over 10 lakh rupees on a Tata or Mahindra? If so, what would you expect of the product?

I would expect only following two additional things from the existing offerings from TATA as well as M&M

1. Exclusive premium A.S.S
2. Lot better Quality at factory itself

IMHO these are two most felt sour points with them and primary reason for people to drop these names in the begining of selection process.

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Old 5th September 2010, 18:29   #37
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Being a Safari owner which has done 70k:

1) Quality of parts; not just plastics,electrical and mechanical. Even after getting my alternator replaced during early stage of owning the Safari, some part of the alternator failed recently.
2) Way somethings are designed (water outlet for AC falls on its own plumping and hence corroding it for example.)
3) They should follow what Ford now does with regard to rectifying an issue, change only what is needed, not the whole system.
4) Fit and finish.

Last edited by jkdas : 5th September 2010 at 18:31.
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Old 5th September 2010, 19:45   #38
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1. Design Department - Please dont give a indica/Scorpio look for the over a Million Vehicle. You guys are not a BMW to carry the same grill on each and every vehicle.

2. Quality of Material - Cant you find any quality vendors yet. We know what happend to Punto/Linea interior when it got 'indonized' . Our Linea glove box still opens automatically even its goes through small potholes. The plastic quality of materials used in these cars are not upto the mark. Come on forgot Jaguar Learn from the Hyundai at least.

3. Reliability - Give us a trouble free vehicle at least for first 1L k.m

4. Service - Have to improve a lot if you are thinking of getting into premium segment. No one wants to get treated like a cabie driver

5. Space - Well TATA's got it correct.

6. Pricing - like others said D+ class features with C class pricing

7. Will i buy it ? - Not yet as i have no confidence in these brands to invest over a MILLION.
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Old 6th September 2010, 14:33   #39
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I guess all of us unanimously agree that Tata & Mahindra need to take giant leaps ahead in the areas of product finesse, on-road handling, interior quality, long-term reliability and after-sales.

However, there are two additional points that stand out from the discussion thus far:

- Strong warranty. Nothing like a 5 year / 100,000 km warranty to boost customer confidence

- Dedicated dealerships / after-sales departments for the premium range

WRT the comment "atleast Hyundai-levels, if not Jaguar",
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Old 6th September 2010, 14:47   #40
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I think the biggest problem Tata and Mahindra, unlike their competitors, have is a complete lack of imagination while positioning their offerings in the market. E.g. a Tata car is always the same old value proposition: cheap and cheap-looking, and more often than not likely to end up as a taxi. Whereas the Mahindra offering is a Jeep, or something that looks like a Jeep.

Agreed this is a perception problem more than anything, and to some extent Tata has handled it better than Mahindra- the Safari has a positive image and the G3 cars (Vista & Manza) are definitely a serious attempt to tackle the image issues.

Having said all that, here's what I would do if I were a Tata or Mahindra:
- Create a strong sub-brand associated with luxury. Go the Lexus or Acura way. One way to bolster this would be make an export-only vehicle with th new branding and then launch it domestically.
- Use your "home grown" status to cultivate customer loyalty through after-sales service. There's no reason why Maruti and Hyundai should trump the local heroes at this game. Frankly I haven't heard any gowing reports about Tata or Mahindra service.
- Launch new cars for Goddssakes! Experiment a little, create internal competition between products, have quicker product lifecycles. If you have the kind of deep pockets needed to fund international acquisitions, surely you can spare some dimes to invest in R&D. Use India's talent pool to advantage!
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Old 6th September 2010, 15:06   #41
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I would gladly pick a mahindra over a toyota since i feel toyota vehicles are highly overpriced for what it offers. i am personally waiting for the launch of the mahindra W201 & if mahindra does not screw up its exterior looks, i would prefer it over the endy/fortuner. it probably would offer a lot of features & creature comforts which would make it VFM against the fortuner. and yes, i dont care a damn about brand value.

Also, my ownership experiences with mahindras has been good (not excellent though) & have not had any reliability issues in any of my scorpios. overall maintainence & upkeep costs of my scorpio has been far lesser than my innova, so the mahindra is cheaper to maintain. moreover, the W201 would cost a lot less than the toyota/honda cars. so i would gladly accept some minor flaws in fit & finish.
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Old 6th September 2010, 15:38   #42
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
- Dedicated dealerships / after-sales departments for the premium range
I guess this is what is needed asap!!the dealers should understand that people are buying this vehicle because they want to and not have to!!that attitude can set in only if a clear demarcation line is drawn between the premium and other products!!

Even with a 5year warranty, without this basic change in attitude, nothing will work out!
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Old 6th September 2010, 15:45   #43
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More than fit and finish, which is pretty subjective, I would want them to fix their QC division.
I mean, who expects to go to service center every 5000kms to fix an irritating engine oil leak, just because the hose pipe they use is of poor quality.
Or frequent fuse blowout because they put a 25A fuse instead of 30A, and then called a retro!

If they intend to get into the 15L mark, they need to change their mindset. Right now they are being penny wise.
Since the low end cars cost little, penny wise does make sense, but in a 15L car, it will be very very pound foolish of they expect to sell a car full of niggles.
The corporations "thinking" and "idealogy" has to change. Deep down, somewhere, they are still truck and commercial vehicle makers, and they follow cost cutting to the hilt. Even in a 10L safari or 10L scorpio they skimp on things like rubber beadings, and other parts which could be of much better quality.
Maybe they need to replace that manager who learnt it in IIM that how ford used to save 1-2$ per car in small things, because they made a million cars, and it meant 2 million $ savings.
With a 15L car, they will sell 200-300 cars at first, and saving 5000rs/car is not worth the reputation damage
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Old 6th September 2010, 16:30   #44
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Default 10 lakh UV

I was searching for 10 lakh UV and could find only TATA and Mahindras. With all the fit and finish, from Totyota, I will get only Power Steering and Power Windows for 11 lakh on road price (Chennai)!! Naturally, I dropped Toyota.

What makes TATA and Mahindra attractive? The pricing.

Would I pay a little more for better quality? Definitely yes. I would have paid upto 50k more for Xylo with a better finish. My suggestion is to reduce the number of variants and provide better fit and finish. Someone said earlier, to improve the fit and finish to the Hyundai levels. Hyundais are definitely priced on the higher side, but they have their market because of the quality.


I am about to experience this first hand{booking threads are not allowed, heh}. So more a request to TATA/ Mahindra:
1. From various threads, it appears that they listen well. {Whether they act is a different question )

2. However trouble shooting seems to be trial and error (refer TSK thread). Better training perhaps or better diagnostics ?

3. I was checking feedback about service levels from a Mahindra owner (& ex- Hyundai). He simply said that Hyundai' was much better when compared to Mahindra. He was not able to pinpoint reasons. I guess, it must have been the overall customer experience. So what we would expect from service centers are
a) No repeat of problems
b) On time delivery
b) Cleanliness
I dont mind paying a little bit more for that.

4. Service Network: Biggest strength of TATA/ Mahindra is their service network (especially in the 10 lakh+ market). If only they improve the quality levels, it would be awesome.

5. Safety features: Instead of adding gizmos like DDAS, Safety features should be made available in all variants. ABS + EBD on Safari LX with ex-showroom price of 8lakh would be mouth watering. (Nissan has done it with Airbags. I think Airbag would be difficult to maintain for a common person. So my suggestion is to provide ABS)

6. Warranty: Both are providing 4 year warranty (with extended payment) and Concorde has started providing Zero maintenance option for first 2 years. This is better than competitors (in 10 +lakh range). Ofcourse, I would like them to raise the bar.

I dont mind paying a little bit more for better finish. Please dont kill the Aria or the Mahindra world SUV with the same problems as before.

Innova is topping the sales charts only because of its quality. I would also have paid toyota, but for safety features.
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Old 6th September 2010, 17:11   #45
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I feel that Tata/Mahindra products over a the ten lakh mark will have a hard time trying to woo buyers because of the brand image factor.

Take a simple example: The Hyundai Sonata. One of the most capable cars out there but sales wise, it is failing miserably because of Hyundai's poor brand image. A good product is simply not enough at that price point. You need brand image. Some pretty good cars like the Hyundai Tucson, Maruti Grand Vitara etc. have or have had similar problems. These are excellent cars with good A.S.S. but they are wearing a badge that is perceived to be "cheap". So unless the Aria and the Mahindra SUV are miles ahead of the competition, they are in for a tough time.

Every point that has been raised in the discussion so far is a pre-requisite for the two. The question is, even if they fulfill all the requirements listed out here, will it be enough?

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 6th September 2010 at 17:13.
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