[julupani]

Originally Posted by Trapezio

What logic is this?

By the same logic we should have swallowed whatever manufacturers other than Tata and Mahindra offered since they are all foreign brands! Oooh.. Ambassador also was not designed for Indians and hence we should not be complaining.

The logic is the ambition of the company.

Tata did not go to Italy so that they may sell thousands of Safaris there. If they had they would put in more effort into designing a Safari which is more suited to the Safari buyer over there, as the person above has requested.

If Toyota was satisfied with selling a few hundred of their international products in India, it is their prerogative. But if they want the kind of success that they have achieved they needed to put in the effort that they have.

Do any of the manufacturers who completely bring in their cars as CBUs customise their cars for Indian conditions?? Do we go around saying, "Oh my God, the 458's nose is just too low for India. I cant possibly buy it". We have to take it in our stride that the 458 is designed mainly for developed countries with good roads, not our potholed and cratered ones.

Can we expect Tata to make investments to design the Safari for Italy, where they may sell 10-15 a month, or cater to their Indian customers where they will sell more than a thousand a month.

On the other hand, Tata made the Xenon largely for the South-East Asian markets, especially Thailand. And thus we get a vehicle at 10L which has a really crappy interior. But that works in Thailand, while India is a secondary or auxillary market, so to speak, for the Xenon.

[Trapezio]

@julupani

I don't think just because it sells 1000+ in India denies the Italian customers' the right to even complain!

If it was of no relevance why did Tata bother setting up distribution and support network in Italy and start selling products? This is not some Chinese importer trying to make quick cash in a country.

I feel if Tata enters a country, it should be a conscious commitment towards its customers in that country. Otherwise stay out. As you said why get desperate for 10-15 units! Surely Tata should be having a strategy in entering a country. This is not something done for fun!

This is purely my opinion and this matter is highly subjective.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by julupani

The logic is the ambition of the company.

Tata did not go to Italy so that they may sell thousands of Safaris there. ,
.
.
.
.
.
"Oh
my God, the 458's nose is just too low for India. I cant possibly buy it". We have to take it in our stride that the 458 is designed mainly for developed countries with good roads, not our potholed and cratered ones.

Can we expect Tata to make investments to design the Safari for Italy, where they may sell 10-15 a month, or cater to their Indian customers where they will sell more than a thousand a month.

On the other hand, Tata made the Xenon largely for the South-East Asian markets, especially Thailand. And thus we get a vehicle at 10L which has a really crappy interior. But that works in Thailand, while India is a secondary or auxillary market, so to speak, for the Xenon.

You are confusing a suv with a sports car.
And I could not really get what you are intending. Do you intend to say that better interiors and quality + features like 6 speed gearbox/auto transmission etc., are good for Italians only? Since we are a third world country a shoddy vehicle is good for us?
That said, I don't think auto tranny or 6 speed gearbox will be a criteria ever in europe. Most people in Europe drive 5 speed manual gearbox equipped cars in the safari segment. Higher end vehicles do have more options in Auto.
Speaking of Xenon's interior, I will tell you the name of a 13L vehicle with a really crappy interior. Its called the safari.
So I cannot really understand the point you want to make but here are the possiblities
1. Tata needs to make crappy interiors to sell vehicles in Thailand, otherwise vehicle will not sell in Thailand
2. Tata has to make good interiors and crappy vehicle in India, as good vehicles are not for us, because due to law of cosmic karma we do not deserve good vehicles
3. Italians deserve good vehicles due to their past life good deeds, but Tata is evil and won't agree to their demands unless they buy 1000 safaris a month.
4. Ferrari sports cars should have high GC because sports cars should be offroad capable

[PAVAN KADAM]

Originally Posted by Trapezio

@julupani

I don't think just because it sells 1000+ in India denies the Italian customers' the right to even complain!

If it was of no relevance why did Tata bother setting up distribution and support network in Italy and start selling products? This is not some Chinese importer trying to make quick cash in a country.

I feel if Tata enters a country, it should be a conscious commitment towards its customers in that country. Otherwise stay out. As you said why get desperate for 10-15 units! Surely Tata should be having a strategy in entering a country. This is not something done for fun!

This is purely my opinion and this matter is highly subjective.

Read the below quote by Tanveer.

Same goes to the Italian Giants - FIAT in India.

We too have the same grouse

Originally Posted by tsk1979

You are confusing a suv with a sports car.
And I could not really get what you are intending. Do you intend to say that better interiors and quality + features like 6 speed gearbox/auto transmission etc., are good for Italians only? Since we are a third world country a shoddy vehicle is good for us?
That said, I don't think auto tranny or 6 speed gearbox will be a criteria ever in europe. Most people in Europe drive 5 speed manual gearbox equipped cars in the safari segment. Higher end vehicles do have more options in Auto.
Speaking of Xenon's interior, I will tell you the name of a 13L vehicle with a really crappy interior. Its called the safari.
So I cannot really understand the point you want to make but here are the possiblities
1. Tata needs to make crappy interiors to sell vehicles in Thailand, otherwise vehicle will not sell in Thailand
2. Tata has to make good interiors and crappy vehicle in India, as good vehicles are not for us, because due to law of cosmic karma we do not deserve good vehicles
3. Italians deserve good vehicles due to their past life good deeds, but Tata is evil and won't agree to their demands unless they buy 1000 safaris a month.
4. Ferrari sports cars should have high GC because sports cars should be offroad capable

[julupani]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

You are confusing a suv with a sports car.
And I could not really get what you are intending. Do you intend to say that better interiors and quality + features like 6 speed gearbox/auto transmission etc., are good for Italians only? Since we are a third world country a shoddy vehicle is good for us?
That said, I don't think auto tranny or 6 speed gearbox will be a criteria ever in europe. Most people in Europe drive 5 speed manual gearbox equipped cars in the safari segment. Higher end vehicles do have more options in Auto.
Speaking of Xenon's interior, I will tell you the name of a 13L vehicle with a really crappy interior. Its called the safari.
So I cannot really understand the point you want to make but here are the possiblities
1. Tata needs to make crappy interiors to sell vehicles in Thailand, otherwise vehicle will not sell in Thailand
2. Tata has to make good interiors and crappy vehicle in India, as good vehicles are not for us, because due to law of cosmic karma we do not deserve good vehicles
3. Italians deserve good vehicles due to their past life good deeds, but Tata is evil and won't agree to their demands unless they buy 1000 safaris a month.
4. Ferrari sports cars should have high GC because sports cars should be offroad capable

My point is simple. Cars in India are built to a price. I dont think Tata would mind slotting in a big engine providing automatic or 6 speed transmission.

But then the Safari would cost 15L+. Remember how everybody shouted and revolted when the Aria turned out to be close to 18L OTR.

Tata is evil, yeah they are. Since they are in it to earn money, not do public service and build a dream car for each and every one of us.

My point with the 458 was, one has to live with certain eccentricities when you are getting a car that was not specifically designed for a customer like you. The Safari was not designed keeping in mind an Italian customer's need for a hardcore 4WD machine. It was designed for the Indian market, and thus shall keep Indian customers in mind and not Italian ones.

If you dont want to live with those eccentricities, then dont buy the car. Tata wont mind if Italians didnt buy a few Safaris that they do. If they did, would they not have made the investment to give them a Euro5 Safari.

Similarly we have to live with what Tata can economically give us in a car like the Xenon. Remember this is not exactly a very hot market for lifestyle pick-up trucks. And considering the sort of numbers they could possibly have sold for a lifestyle pick-up truck, it does not make sense for Tata to design a specific vehicle for such a small number of customers. Thus to meet that small demand as best it can, it modified its export Xenon, which was made for Thailand, and sold it in India. And due to that we have to live with those kind of interiors.

If a Xenon-like vehicle could sell a couple hundred consistently at around the 10-12L price band, Tata would help us get a better Xenon.

Remember, Tata Motors is a business and exists to make money for its stakeholders in whatever way they can.

And to make money one has to make efficient use of available resources. And among the priorities of the Safari, the Italian customer is unfortunately very low down on the list. And the Indian customer is not high priority for the Xenon.

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

Read the below quote by Tanveer.

Same goes to the Italian Giants - FIAT in India.

We too have the same grouse

True, but as I understand it FIAT actually wants to sell thousands of cars in India, not import a couple of Bravos and Fiat 500s and be happy with that.

Are we complaining that FIAT is selling a 2 seater car, that is unbelievably small but still costs a bomb. Its called the 500. And the only thing you pay 15L+ for a 500 is that it is unbelievably good looking. That is why FIAT is providing a few of them in India, for those people who are willing to pay 15L for a FIAT 500. Will FIAT be getting a headache if they dont sell even a single 500 in India?? Will they be tearing their hair out thinking "What's wrong with the 500??". They wont even bat an eyelid.

Remember, Tata Safari is an import for Italy and selling in very very limited numbers.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by julupani

Tata did not go to Italy so that they may sell thousands of Safaris there.

So what did they go there for? A picnic? Had Safari managed to sell there in thousands instead of hundreds, would TML have fired the concerned Sales Manager or rewarded him with a promotion or raise?

Originally Posted by julupani

If they had they would put in more effort into designing a Safari which is more suited to the Safari buyer over there, as the person above has requested.

I ask you why did Tata hire a British design house to design the Safari? The job could have been done in-house at a fraction of the cost. Sumo (1994 model) designing was done entirely in-house wasn't it?

Originally Posted by julupani

If Toyota was satisfied with selling a few hundred of their international products in India, it is their prerogative. But if they want the kind of success that they have achieved they needed to put in the effort that they have.

Put in effort in maintaining the Japanese quality standards here or lowering them to Indian levels?

Originally Posted by julupani

Can we expect Tata to make investments to design the Safari for Italy, where they may sell 10-15 a month, or cater to their Indian customers where they will sell more than a thousand a month.

As tsk1979 rightly pointed out, there are customers even in India who expect more features and higher quality. If the features demanded by our friend from Italy were offered in Indian Safaris too (at least as an option), Safari's Indian sales would go up just like sales in Italy would.

Originally Posted by julupani

On the other hand, Tata made the Xenon largely for the South-East Asian markets, especially Thailand. And thus we get a vehicle at 10L which has a really crappy interior. But that works in Thailand, while India is a secondary or auxillary market, so to speak, for the Xenon.

Actually, that doesn't work at all in Thailand whose population is used to some really high quality pick ups made by Japanese manufacturers. That's why in Thailand, instead of marketing the Xenon as a lifestyle product, Tata has been targetting the commercial vehicle segment which is more tolerant of lower quality interiors.

[Latheesh]

This discussion is going off-topic :-)

[julupani]

Originally Posted by directinjection

So what did they go there for? A picnic? Had Safari managed to sell there in thousands instead of hundreds, would TML have fired the concerned Sales Manager or rewarded him with a promotion or raise?

They would obviously have rewarded him. But they would have fired the guy who did the market survey and told them they could sell only a hundred or so annually.

And then they would have done extensive market research and customer interaction and made the requisite investment to come up with the exact kind of Safari that the Italian customer wants

Originally Posted by directinjection

I ask you why did Tata hire a British design house to design the Safari? The job could have been done in-house at a fraction of the cost. Sumo (1994 model) designing was done entirely in-house wasn't it?

Because at the time when they were trying to come up with the Safari in the mid nineties, they did not have the in house expertise to come up with something like the Safari.

Originally Posted by directinjection

Put in effort in maintaining the Japanese quality standards here or lowering them to Indian levels?

Coming up with the kind of product that maintains the quality of Toyota, but is still good enough to meet the price sensitive requirements of the Indian customers. That is why you have so many Innovas with ultra basic spec levels which enables them to sell a couple of thousand

Originally Posted by directinjection

As tsk1979 rightly pointed out, there are customers even in India who expect more features and higher quality. If the features demanded by our friend from Italy were offered in Indian Safaris too (at least as an option), Safari's Indian sales would go up just like sales in Italy would.

Not to be very sarcastic but do check the title of the thread. Isnt it about a new and improved Safari.

Also please check the details of what the Italian gentleman laid out as his requests. Do you think all of them would have any point in India? The Safari is not a hard-core 4x4 for most of its customers. Some do modify them, but they are very few.

Obviously, Tata will be sure to add features for improving sales in India, and having an auto transmission should definitely be one of them. But a hardcore 4x4 Safari just does not have enough customers for Tata to make them.

I never said that the Safari needs no improvement. But I said the sort of "proper 4x4" Safari is just not economic for Tata.

Also, even with the improvements, it probably still wont make economic sense for Tata to invest to make its 2.2L DiCOR Euro5 ready from now on, just to sell a couple of Safaris in Europe.

Originally Posted by directinjection

Actually, that doesn't work at all in Thailand whose population is used to some really high quality pick ups made by Japanese manufacturers. That's why in Thailand, instead of marketing the Xenon as a lifestyle product, Tata has been targetting the commercial vehicle segment which is more tolerant of lower quality interiors.

Who said that the Xenon is a lifestyle pick-up in Thailand. Its a commercial pick-up there. And those kinds of interiors work for a commercial pick-up.

Only in India, the Xenon is a life-style pick-up derived from its Thai commercial variant.

[condor]

Guys, was any of that actually related directly to the Merlin ?

[mpescatori]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Well spoken in the first part, Signor Pescatori - my feelings exactly.

As for the second part (Overland), please send me a PM containing details of what you're smoking right now.

Sir, of your last staement is a clear indication of the esteem you have in other Forum members.
May I suggest you retire to your quarters and think about it.
I sincerely doubt you would have used those words, had we been sitting at a coffee table.

Originally Posted by julupani

First of all, let me make it clear. The 2.2L VTT DiCOR (not VVT, VTT is Tata terminology for variable vane turbocharger), was developed by the Austrian firm AVL and Tata. It had nothing to do with PSA DW12 engine.

Sir, please remember that the Safari is not a vehicle made by Tata to impress its Italian fans with serious 4x4 ability. It is a slightly premium SUV from India, which happens to have some fans in Italy and a few other countries.

Tata cannot be expected to keep your requirements in mind when designing a Safari. There are just not enough of you to make that economical.

For the time being you have to be satisfied with modifying whatever Tata can sell to you.

To begin with, AVL is a firm never before heard of in Europe. One thing is to say "BMW motorcycle with Rotax engine", another thing is to assume there is a ghost factory in Austria which designs/produces engines for nobody in Europe, yet has a million-dollar contract with Tata.
I took the time to research and came up with this interesting statement:
"AVL, or Anstalt für Verbrennungskraftmaschinen List, is an Austrian-based automotive consulting firm as well as an independent research institute. It is the largest privately owned company for the development of powertrain systems with internal combustion engines as well as instrumentation and test systems and also produces electric powertrains."
(source, Wikipedia Company Profle)
AVL's own portal clearly shows they are a consulting firm of internal combustion engines; they do not produce, rather they take a design provided by the client and suggest how to improve it.
So I rest my case, the 2200cc is a derivative of Peugeot's own design.

As for "the demanding Italian customer", we are at a crossroads here:
Tata either produce a "so-so quality SUV for the tolerant Indian market" (which is what I read between the lines of your post) ...

... or realizes that when they walk into the lions' den of the European SUV market, a proper 4x4 (when you have a rail chassis, Dana powertrain and low gears you qualify as a proper 4x4) costing 22500 Euro list price competes directly with luxury SUVs in the class of Toyota RAV4, Nissan X-Trail, and the Land Rover Freelander.

True, these vehicles may bot be equipped with low gears or a rail chassis, but they are manufactured in European factories, and the European worker is remarkably more expensive that his Indian colleague.

I do not know how many Lakh are equivalent to 22500 Euro, but the European Safaris are certainly more expensive than their Indian counterparts
AND
are less well equipped:
- leather seats are present in the list of optional equipment, but have a 6-month waiting list (must be custom ordered from India - or you buy the car in the showroom and take it home as is)
- the air conditioning unit has only one motor (the original Safari from 1999-2000 had two buttons and a dedicated a/c motor for the rear seats)
- no headlamp washer/wipers
- no DVD player with the screens in the front headrests.

On the other hand, my "overland" requests are more than justified.
An old Italian proverb says: "Appetite grows as you eat"

In other words, you may be a newbie in the 4x4 environment, and perhaps byu a Safari because you need to transport 5-7 people where an ordinary 2wd car will get hopelessly bogged.
BUT
as you improve and get more and more experience, you may want to tackle more challenging obstacles - just look at that wonderful videoclip which advertised the safari in the late 90's...

TATA SAFARI - YouTube

This is what Italian members of the TataClub Elephant 4x4 like doing:

4x4 TATA SAFARI - YouTube

Albania april 2011 - YouTube

If Tata can't realize there's a booming market for good 4x4s with competitive proces, they are bound to lose the race, whether they call the next car Safari, Merlin or whatever other name.

Regards,

[julupani]

Originally Posted by mpescatori

As for "the demanding Italian customer", we are at a crossroads here:
Tata either produce a "so-so quality SUV for the tolerant Indian market" (which is what I read between the lines of your post) ...

... or realizes that when they walk into the lions' den of the European SUV market, a proper 4x4 (when you have a rail chassis, Dana powertrain and low gears you qualify as a proper 4x4) costing 22500 Euro list price competes directly with luxury SUVs in the class of Toyota RAV4, Nissan X-Trail, and the Land Rover Freelander.

True, these vehicles may bot be equipped with low gears or a rail chassis, but they are manufactured in European factories, and the European worker is remarkably more expensive that his Indian colleague.

I do not know how many Lakh are equivalent to 22500 Euro, but the European Safaris are certainly more expensive than their Indian counterparts
AND
are less well equipped:
- leather seats are present in the list of optional equipment, but have a 6-month waiting list (must be custom ordered from India - or you buy the car in the showroom and take it home as is)
- the air conditioning unit has only one motor (the original Safari from 1999-2000 had two buttons and a dedicated a/c motor for the rear seats)
- no headlamp washer/wipers
- no DVD player with the screens in the front headrests.

On the other hand, my "overland" requests are more than justified.
An old Italian proverb says: "Appetite grows as you eat"

In other words, you may be a newbie in the 4x4 environment, and perhaps byu a Safari because you need to transport 5-7 people where an ordinary 2wd car will get hopelessly bogged.
BUT
as you improve and get more and more experience, you may want to tackle more challenging obstacles - just look at that wonderful videoclip which advertised the safari in the late 90's...
TATA SAFARI - YouTube

This is what Italian members of the TataClub Elephant 4x4 like doing:
4x4 TATA SAFARI - YouTube
Albania april 2011 - YouTube

If Tata can't realize there's a booming market for good 4x4s with competitive proces, they are bound to lose the race, whether they call the next car Safari, Merlin or whatever other name.

Regards,

As for this "booming market", would you mind putting a number to it? How many Safaris do you expect Tata could reasonably sell in Italy at a price range below 20,000 Euros. And I am saying below 20,000 Euros for a point I am going to make presently.

You have brought forward another important point, but probably have failed to realise it. I myself didnt realise it as I didnt actually think that the Safari would be so costly in Italy.

Signor Pescatori, Tata are already providing you with a much more hardcore 4x4 than the Safari ever was. Ironically it happens to have the exact engine that you suggested Tata put in the Safari to make it Euro5 compatible.

It's called the Land Rover Freelander.

Remember, Land Rover is now fully owned by Tata. So effectively each Euro you pay Land Rover for a Freelander, actually goes into Tata Motors kitty.

So my Indian friends, do we expect Tata Motors to provide a Safari, at less than 15L price, that is even close to what the Freelander is, just to meet the demands of the Italian Safari fanatics???

Anyway, I think this discussion has gone far enough. I have made enough points and given as much argument as I care to give now.

[Latheesh]

Why dont you discuss TATA's Italian Job in another thread and leave this one to Merlin discussion. :-)

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by Trapezio

The Tata TDi engine is based on an old Peugeot design.

Which design? TUD5? Please specify.

Originally Posted by Trapezio

A legal agreement also exists between the company.

Where can I find it? Is there any published press report that refers to this agreement like there are for TML's other agreements?

Originally Posted by Trapezio

Many of the parts are actually interchangeable.

Like for instance? Due to non-availability of spare parts, Fiat car owners in India are at times forced to use parts of non-Fiat cars which work reasonably well in Fiats but that doesn't make Fiat and those cars same.

Originally Posted by Trapezio

If you want an explicit media source, I do not have any.

Ever wondered why? Why is that one can find press reports about TML's collaborations with Mercedes, Cummins, Marcopolo, IDEA, Stile Bertone, LMM, AVL, Hitachi, Fuji, Fiat, etc. but never about the alleged collaboration with Peugeot for the development of engines for cars and SUVs? Ever wondered why?

Originally Posted by Trapezio

Tata did not copy the design; but they did not start from a clean sheet and instead wisely decided to turn to Peugeot.

Can you please explain clearly what's the exact differerence between the two?


When a company like Tata Motors has to seek technology or expertise from a foreign company, it has to make a disclosure of the same before Governmental authorities since payment to the collaborator has to be made in foreign currency through official/legal channels. Hence, information about Tata's foreign colloborations is always available in public domain which includes the company's annual reports. Tata does not and cannot collaborate with foreign companies surreptitiously.

For the Indica engine, Tata did seek foreign help but it wasn't from Peugeot. It sought help from Le Moteur Moderne (LMM), a French R&D company, now owned by AVL. Tata hasn't shied away from disclosing this and you can find this info in public domain. If it had collaborated with Peugeot, a long standing company with reputation, why would Tata be secretive about it?

While it is possible that LMM may have used a Peugeot block resulting in an indirect connection with Tata, it is also possible, given that Tata has the biggest auto R&D set up in India with past experience in designing engines, that the Indica engine was designed locally with LMM's help being taken in improving & fine tuning it. Alternatively, teams of ERC and LMM could have worked on the project simultaneously just like IDEA and ERC teams were both involved in designing the Indica body shell.

In the absence of any credible evidence being advanced to support the argument that Indica and Safari engines are modified Peugeot units, the benefit of doubt should go to Tata engineers in my opinion.

If you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Indica 1.4 and Dicor 2.2 engines are modified Peugeot units, I'd be happy to be corrected!

[Trapezio]

@directinjection

I stick to what I said. I simply don't have proof (or atleast things which I want to mention here). I am not alone here as many engine parts manufacturers couple these up for while studying the market (again I was part of these team and I know this for a fact). I also don't know whether they interacted with Peugeot directly or through some licensees in between. But it simply is not a ground up work.

Perhaps somebody responsible from Tata can be a better judge than you and me arguing in a forum. If you prefer to consider it a pure Tata engine, you are most welcome.

BTW I didn't mention anything about the 2.2 DICOR. I simply do not know about it.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by Trapezio

@directinjection

I stick to what I said. I simply don't have proof (or atleast things which I want to mention here). I am not alone here as many engine parts manufacturers couple these up for while studying the market (again I was part of these team and I know this for a fact). I also don't know whether they interacted with Peugeot directly or through some licensees in between. But it simply is not a ground up work.

Those in the know should at least be in a position to point out the specific Peugeot engine model (say, TUD5, the most likely choice) that served as the base for Tata's engine.

Originally Posted by Trapezio

Perhaps somebody responsible from Tata can be a better judge than you and me arguing in a forum. If you prefer to consider it a pure Tata engine, you are most welcome.

I'm quite neutral to be honest. I was merely objecting to people jumping to conclusions on the basis of heresay. I also find the condescending attitude of foreign journos towards Tata objectionable. Jeremy Clarkson while reviewing the Indica/Cityrover had called it the world's worst car. He had also said that its engine is a Peugeot unit "but of course Tata doesn't say so anywhere", as if Tata had simply copied or reverse engineered the engine like a typical Chinese counterfeit manufacturer. It is unfair to deny credit where it is due.