[Enigmatic]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

And that's the ALL-NEW-SAFARI ?!! Can a product be launched from drawing board to real life in 18 months? I would rather think it will take easily 2 years+ [assuming XUV 500 took 4 years to launch?]

Well according to what ever i have read on this forum so far , TATA had allotted a time frame of 18 months for the development of Merlin however it took them 36 months to do so!!

Although as Amit clarified , the merlin would be launched in January 2012 and they have actually kick started their global suv car project again after the annihilating effect the XUV has had on the market .

But again the very basic question which I have is where and how will they price their products??

Their flagship Aria is already overpriced and although it competes with the XUV , tata simply doesnt agree and says that it is in competition with the likes of endeavour and fortuner etc. Which to be brutally honest is not accepting the reality which causes tata an even bigger problem of pricing its other products competitively .

The current Tata Safari 2.2 starts from 8.17 and stretches upto 12.65 ex showroom which again if seen in comparison with the scorpio which is its major competitor is over prices model vs model.

Now even if they plan to launch the new merlin in January where will they price it ?
If they price it in the current pricing range which is 8-12 lakhs OTR then although the base variants will still be VFM but any variant which crosses 10Lakh OTR which im guessing will be the GX and the VX then it will come into competition with the XUV which is many segments above what the merlin can claim !

Also as per the rumors Tata plans to sell the current Safari alongside the Merlin . This can only mean that the GX and the VX variants of the Current safari will be discontinued so that some space can be created for the Merlin to be priced. But again if we come to think of this then the GX and the VX variants of the current safari itself cost 10.65 lakhs and 11.72 lakhs respectively so again they will come into the territory of the XUV which by the looks of it has conquered its space really well .

Tata seriously has to rethink its pricing strategy ASAP otherwise the game that has been taken to a new level by the XUV and which will only get more intense after the launch of the Duster etc will be very difficulty for tata to crack .

[ebonho]

The other option TATA has is of offering the Merlin fully loaded to cannibalize the Safari EX, GX and VX slots somewhere short of the median price level (I mean who are they kidding? 1 lac increments for EX to GX ABS and GX to VX Airbags???) and leave the parallel Safari offering only as a bare-bone LX version, albeit with roof mounted AC at the least - and most importantly, the option of 4x4, so that it fills an important niche for a relatively low priced bare bones 4x4 entry level SUV. In such a segment, such an offering would have more takers than all their current Safari 4-variant sales put together IMHO. A front facing 3-rd row option could also be offered (post homologation) to see whether the platform lifespan can maybe even be given a fresh lease of life through the Taxi segment (rather than the inevitable demise).

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

we havent heard of any niggle/ problem in ARIA, have we? also Manza is very good product along with the new vista.

Would they have to start selling the Aria in decent numbers before we become aware of quality problems??

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Would they have to start selling the Aria in decent numbers before we become aware of quality problems??

as soon as they launched the sumo grande the niggles were well known. here too they dint sell many units.

[teamveevee]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

And that's the ALL-NEW-SAFARI ?!! Can a product be launched from drawing board to real life in 18 months? I would rather think it will take easily 2 years+ [assuming XUV 500 took 4 years to launch?]

Even though Tata calls Aria a Xover, in reality it is an SUV, as it is a body-on-frame. (instead of Monocoque (Unibody)). As every one knows, the body-on-frame construction is more expensive than unibody. The new SUV was initially planned on ARIA (body-on-frame) platform, now with the introduction of XUV, Tata need to rethink this strategy and has to come up with a Unibody X-over (which is lighter and cheaper to make to compete with XUV and other upcoming X-overs from other foreign brands) and hence the pause. If they need to come up with a totally new Unibody platform (could be shared with upcoming passenger cars) it will take more than 36 months for sure. Other option is to derive a X-over from an existing passenger car platform ie Manza), which may take 18 months. This could be the dilema with the top management faces now. Probably we will come to know the direction in due course, right now it is mere speculations.
Aria is good vehicle, but it took a very long time to reach the market, and by the time it reached the market, it lost its relevance. They should have planned the Aria platform as unibody as most of the foreign (Even Ford Explorer in US markets is unibody now, so does GM Arcadia) brands already moved to unibody construction.

[sahakar]

What happened to the Diwali dhamaka.. Looks like nothing but a whimper is it?

Cheers

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

as soon as they launched the sumo grande the niggles were well known. here too they dint sell many units.

Ofcourse Sumo Grande is a big hit when you compare to the Aria, but still we got like One Aria on team-bhp so where would you get the feedback on Aria quality from?? Friends, relatives, colleagues, who own it or maybe guess work???

Originally Posted by teamveevee

As every one knows, the body-on-frame construction is more expensive than unibody.

Why do you feel body on frame construction is more expensive than unibody? Creating a unibody is much more complex procedure with much higher tooling costs.

Originally Posted by sahakar

What happened to the Diwali dhamaka.. Looks like nothing but a whimper is it?

Cheers

hi Sahakar, If you read other posts from the person who posted the diwali dhamaka, noting what he says on this forum makes sense. For those of us who hang around in the 4x4 section, we know this chap well so don't really bother to get excited.

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Ofcourse Sumo Grande is a big hit when you compare to the Aria, but still we got like One Aria on team-bhp so where would you get the feedback on Aria quality from?? Friends, relatives, colleagues, who own it or maybe guess work???

there might be very few ARIAS on our forum, but there are many sold in the market. there are some people who are associated with this product who still continuously take feedback from Customers, Service advisors of the dealers who service ARIA. these people are my relatives + family friends + classmates.

i guess this is enough explanation from where i get the info and i hope this gets you out of your own guess work that you are doing here.

if you want further information PM me and i will let you know the crisscross connections.

[Durango Dude]

All that M&M has to do now is bring in the Mini Xylo and price it right and that would be disastrous for the Indica/Vista range.

[sahakar]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

hi Sahakar, If you read other posts from the person who posted the diwali dhamaka, noting what he says on this forum makes sense. For those of us who hang around in the 4x4 section, we know this chap well so don't really bother to get excited.

Ohh is it so.. That chap sounded quite sincere

Well I guess no option now but to wait patiently for the Auto Expo.

Cheers

[indian21r]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

yes tata is progressing very fast towards becoming a more mature passenger vehicle manufacturer. quality is becoming a key in all its new products now.

we havent heard of any niggle/ problem in ARIA, have we? also Manza is very good product along with the new vista.

No man Aria is the worst product from Tata that we have used over the Years Quality wise. I am talking from my Uncles Safari to our Indigo none gave as many problems as the Aria that we have purchased in April 2011. The no. of times the cars had breakdowns and the time it took for them to repair was immense. I actually lost credibility in my Organization for recommending the Tata Product.

[lurker]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Why do you feel body on frame construction is more expensive than unibody? Creating a unibody is much more complex procedure with much higher tooling costs.

tooling cost may be higher initially but the bill of materials will be lower. A body on frame is built on a frame, but the unibody is frameless and it's body is the frame. So the unibody relies on it's A, B, C pillars, door beams etc for structural integrity.

In serial production, the unibody manufacturers have saved expense on the seperate chassis and related expense entirely. This results in a lighter car and more fuel-efficient but slightly more fragile as well.

[LobsterB]

Originally Posted by indian21r

No man Aria is the worst product from Tata that we have used over the Years Quality wise. I am talking from my Uncles Safari to our Indigo none gave as many problems as the Aria that we have purchased in April 2011. The no. of times the cars had breakdowns and the time it took for them to repair was immense. I actually lost credibility in my Organization for recommending the Tata Product.

Rahul, can you please throw some more light on the issues that you faced with Aria? Is there an ownership thread already?

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

there might be very few ARIAS on our forum, but there are many sold in the market. there are some people who are associated with this product who still continuously take feedback from Customers, Service advisors of the dealers who service ARIA. these people are my relatives + family friends + classmates.

Given the few Arias on the road, it is just awsome that you have got feed back from most owners. I will take your word on it.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

i guess this is enough explanation from where i get the info and i hope this gets you out of your own guess work that you are doing here.

if you want further information PM me and i will let you know the crisscross connections.

I don't recall making a guess about whether Arai quality has improved or decreased. My comment that the sampling is so few to make an informed judgment for most people who may not have the access to inside information that you have. I only commented, because I see a lot of posts that start with "I know some one on the inside", "my friend's, friend's, service adivsor etc"...

Originally Posted by lurker

tooling cost may be higher initially but the bill of materials will be lower. A body on frame is built on a frame, but the unibody is frameless and it's body is the frame. So the unibody relies on it's A, B, C pillars, door beams etc for structural integrity.

Will the frameless body have to be stronger/more rigid than the body of a body on frame vehicle, since as you suggested that body itself acts as frame and has to be strengthened to absorb impact. I don't deny that unibody has lot of advantages from a production, and overall rigidity standpoint. Basically a new Safari chasis costs about 40K retail. Do you think if Safari was made unibody, it we can deduct the cost of chasis and have a production costs for the Safari? What I am saying is that we cannot make a blanket statement saying unibody will be cheaper than body on frame. This maybe the case for smaller cars. Obviously if you put a maruthi 800 on a chasis, it will be more expensive. But to make a vehicle the size of a Safari/Montero unibody will not lower the material costs drastically.

[teamveevee]

Originally Posted by lurker

tooling cost may be higher initially but the bill of materials will be lower. A body on frame is built on a frame, but the unibody is frameless and it's body is the frame. So the unibody relies on it's A, B, C pillars, door beams etc for structural integrity.

In serial production, the unibody manufacturers have saved expense on the seperate chassis and related expense entirely. This results in a lighter car and more fuel-efficient but slightly more fragile as well.

You are absolutely right. Also keep in mind tooling cost is one time expense, where as BOM is recurring.
4x4 Addict, We can go on the + and - of each, but if you do some research, one of the main reason most of the foreign brands went for Unibody was cost (and weight) reduction and better ride.

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

My comment that the sampling is so few

The same goes with quality also, when the no of production is less, the manufacturer can go for quality check for each finished vehicle, but once the production increases, they will go with sampling, (One in 10 or One in 5), so there is a good chance the quality is better when the production no is less.