[Guna]

Originally Posted by alpha1

I don't know about the higher end SUVs
But SUVs like Safari & Scorpio and MUVs induce a nausea with their bobbing motion.

The motion sickness aspect is present in both:
1. Good roads. You tend to drive fast. Hence bobbing and rocking when you accelerate, brake or swerve left/right.
2. Bad roads. You can't avoid the perpetual spring motion in bad roads/potholes and ghats.

IMO, after being a victim of this puking sensation, I can only hold grudge against these big vehicles.

Puking sensation is not limited to SUVs. Many people who traveled in my ANHC have complained about it. In fact my daughter has big time travel sickness in ANHC but she was absolutely alright when we went on a long distance travel in a Forester(which is like a sedan in terms of road manners and not like an SUV).

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by ACM

Even a 10 kms bad section in 200 kms of good roads will justify an SUV.

Rightly said ACM. In fact, I have a question since you have a pretty enviable stable.

If I were to own ONE car for all my needs and I m the kind of person who likes to use the road( and that means ANY road/bad road/4 lane/the roads used by Tanveer) as often as possible, especially for long distance travel with a max of 5 people in the vehicle and require very good FE with low maintenance costs which vehicle would you recommend and why?

1. Skoda Laura.
2. Skoda Yeti.
3. Toyota Fortuner.
4. Any other vehicle that you feels beats this list.


The others too can pitch in.

[ACM]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

ACM. In fact, I have a question since you have a pretty enviable stable.

If I were to own ONE car for all my needs and I m the kind of person who likes to use the road( and that means ANY road/bad road/4 lane/the roads used by Tanveer) as often as possible, especially for long distance travel with a max of 5 people in the vehicle and require very good FE with low maintenance costs which vehicle would you recommend and why?
1. Skoda Laura.
2. Skoda Yeti.
3. Toyota Fortuner.
4. Any other vehicle that you feels beats this list.
.

This would be a bit OT but since you do mention it:

Among the cars you mention and some others:

1) Skoda Laura - is not really meant for Really Bad Roads, and does not have a significant GC either, its GC would take care of normal bumps in the city but not abnormal ones. It is fun to drive in general and quite luxurious but..
2) Skoda Yeti is obviously a better option than the Laura for rougher roads and would be closest to a Car among the options. Yet again it's not a comfortable 5 seater due to narrow rear bench and limited luggage space compared to other SUV's.
3) Toyota Fortuner has the power to move its heavy bulk and feels very secure, but the interiors are a bit to conservative and innovaish, and brake too don't inspire confidence on the highways. It also will pitch around a bit more on the highways as well as is a bit bumpy on rough roads due to a stiffer suspension. (It is way better than an Endy though). It is a good option if exterior impression matter the most and if one is driving, for the passengers there is not much there.
4) Safari is a good option for rough roads but will have a greater range of movements in all directions (though not as much as in the Scorpio). It is not as good an offroader or highway vehicle as the Fortuner but is 40% cheaper and has the most comfortable middle row so makes a lot of sense if it is driver driven. Engine is decent.
5) Aria - gives the best of both the Sedan and SUV world, obviously the Laura and Yeti are more car like than the Aria but then the Aria is a neat compromise between a full blown SUV like the fortuner / Safari with 4H/4L modes and a sedan like the Laura. It also has great interiors, features, Ground Clearance, 7 seats, AWD and lots of luggage space.

I would give my vote in the following order:
1) Aria or Yeti - Based on Individual tastes after driving each
2) Fortuner or Safari - Based on budget and peace of mind requirements for more or less a similar experience.
3) SX4 - The sedan most suitable for rough roads in India - Also has an AT option and though build quality is tacky it also has an AT option. Bad bit it is not any fun to drive.
4) Laura > Cruz > Altis - For driving pleasure with lux features on good and moderate roads with a compromise on rough roads.

It is finally about how essential is ones need to feel secure on the highway, at high speed, on braking, on rough roads and will bulling the autowalas.

Now lets get back to the SUV vs Sedan debate.

[alpha1]

The feeling of nausea in sedan has more to do with things other than motion sickness.

Its got to do with vibrations. Infrasonic frequencies, as well as lower sonic frequencies play an important part in unsettling our internals.

This happens at certain RPMs for certain chassis. Coupled with the fact that totally insulated cabin cuts off all higher frequency noise (like wind etc) - it gives a bad sensation.

Open the windows in such cases, and allow your ears to listen to the natural white/brown noise.


But, this doesn't hold true in "boats" where the sickness is indeed caused by motion.
(PS: sedans who have very high windows + low seat also give the same sensation - because your eyes are not able to follow the ear level sensors)

Of course I do understand that higher GC DOES gives advantage to vehicles in impeccable roads of India.

But then, higher GC usually leads to higher CG (centre of gravity) also - which can make the vehicle unstable at higher speeds. (Like travelling at high speed, you suddenly have to take a left or right to avoid hitting that fellow on bicycle coming your way at night)

[Surprise]

Originally Posted by drrajasaravanan

Hi,
One point against a sedan will be ease of ingress and egress of a MUV or a SUV compared to any sedan. My father who has had a ligament rupture finds it more easier to enter and exit a MUV rather than a sedan(even after 8 hours of driving). One of my friends father too complimented my MUV for the same (My friend owns a city).

Originally Posted by rrsteer

2) An SUV is also the best family vehicle. It has the capacity to bring the family together like no other. Last year I did a trip ......with my father, my mother, my wife , my sister, my uncle, our bags and baggage and me all nicely tucked inside........And the best part of the holiday was when we were on the road munching miles, exploring hills cocooned together inside the warm (it was winter) and comfortable confines of our.....

4 adults+2 kids less than 5 yrs+luggage for 2-3 day trips (Myself/Wife/aged parents+kids) turns out too much for a sedan. The person who sits right behind my seat would curse me for extending my seat to its fullest stretch. Though this is only 1-2 times trip a year, such trips will hang around till you make the next trip & kids enjoy a lot with grandpa or grandma around esp to help them out to get what they want...due to the tough ingress/egress & knee pain on long drives esp in a low slung car like baleno, generally some lame excuses were floated not be part of the travel :(. Always felt a SUV like Scorpio would make things better (Scorpio definitely looks handy than other SUV's)

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

When it comes to spending extended time inside the car, an SUV beats a sedan (again IMO, but ask hvkumar too).

Though I have not felt any real discomfort driving a sedan for 8-10 hrs almost continuous, guess it would be even more easier to cover distances with good seating comforts in SUV's

Originally Posted by roy_libran

The main point against these vehicles is COST. India, does not need the 12 Lac + SUV/MUVs. It needs a lot of decent SUV/MUV Options in the 6 - 10 Lac Space. That's where a lot of volumes should be.

There are two SUV's in the radar & their prices are not in my comfort zone



Mahindra Scorpio


Top variant almost costs Rs.11L (ex showroom prices)


Toyota - Pricelist


Top variant costs Rs.12.10 L (ex showroom prices)

Originally Posted by paragsachania

My personal vote will always be a Crossover like car like the Fusion anyday and I wish it gets reintroduced.

+1. I liked Fusion a lot. A powerful diesel vehicle like Fusion in the price range of 6-8L

Originally Posted by mooza

I am more worried about the subconscious / reflex swerving input to the steering wheel that I might be forced to give to my Scorpio at high speeds on a highway, if a careless biker or drunk pedestrian materialised from nowhere. In such a situation, my Ikon might withstand the swerve, whereas the SUV might roll over, as in the case of my office colleague's vehicle a couple of years ago on NH 48. His family was lucky to escape with minor injuries. This is the reason I never exceed 90 to 100 kmph in my Scorp.

Even speeds above 80 kmph is not comfortable for me, when I took the Scorpio for the first time test drive (esp after spending most of the driving in hatchback & low slung car). But regular usage will make us adapt to its design.


I always wonder at the guys, who do consistent 120-130-140 kmph with a scorpio or innova or safari in our highways, the way they would have taken a sedan (consistent 160-170? :( )

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

1. Skoda Laura.
2. Skoda Yeti.
3. Toyota Fortuner.
4. Any other vehicle that you feels beats this list.


The others too can pitch in.

If you want a low maintainance, FE, comfortable car that can tackle all roads, look no further than the Innova VX D4-D. It has decent GC, easy to drive, powerful, and more comfortable than the Fortuner.
Best to start a thread about the same highlighting your choices.

IMO, if you have a garage of more than one car, the SUV makes an ideal case for itself as it can handle poor roads better. If your highway trips constitute mainly expressway type of roads, than a sedan makes more sense.

[shankar.balan]

I love the Scorpio in many ways but there are some inherent issues in driving fast.
Example: I find that the vehicle judders and shudders and swings and skitters about in case one goes over a rumble strip without slowing down enough. I went over a rumble strip at about 50kmph because I could not slow down enough in time and the vehicle skittered about quite a bit - fully loaded with luggage and passengers. I didnt anticipate that rumble strip which must have had about 20 rumbles. While I was doing 80, I was able to gear down and cut the speed to about 50. And went over that strip. I passed the strip quickly but the vehicle handled quite like a bucking bronco!
Hence, while the SUV like a Scorpio does have a very large number of advantages, it does have to be driven with care on account of its high stance, slightly top heavy nature and high GC.
When one is forced to brake suddenly for example on account of some unforeseen issue, it does tend to pitch and most of the things which are placed on the rear seat tend to fly off and land in the rear seat footwell on account of inertia of motion. This can sometimes be irritating unless one is prepared in advance for such.
All in all it is great for our roads. But one MUST drive it with an eye on its inherent size and GC, and NOT try stunts else one is likely to get some shocks.
The longer I own and drive one, the more I want ABS and Airbags and so on - maybe Im getting older and more wary of our open roads, but safety is increasingly becoming a necessity given the speeds that we are able to do these days!

[Rigid Rotor]

Would it be something like the debate between Armour (SUV) vs Agility (cars) in the traffic battlefield? The elephant vs the horse sort of thing?

SUVs - a bit more ponderous, with more visible presence and more (old gen SUVs, at least) hefty steel bumpers or bull-bars for protection. Good in a straight line, but not too good with agility (handling).

Cars - more agile with better power-to-weight ratios and lower CG, makes up for lack of armour with better manoeuvreability. Cheaper to produce for the same size and packed with better features for the same cost.

Methinks- despite the perceived advantages of an SUV, the advangates of a car oversahdows the SUV

[mooza]

Just to add another perspective to this interesting debate.

Both my kids vote for my Scorpio over the Ikon, day after day. The 3rd row is their home away from home. Their eyes light up very differently when they see me guide my Scorpio into my driveway when I return from work. That completes my day as well.

They are cursing me for having turned in the Scorp for servicing

[architect]

Originally Posted by Rigid Rotor

hefty steel bumpers or bull-bars for protection.

The "protection" you mention in an SUV can mean the death for some poor pedestrian where a crumple zone could have saved a life.

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by architect

The "protection" you mention in an SUV can mean the death for some poor pedestrian where a crumple zone could have saved a life.

Slightly .

Crumple zones do not save pedestrian lives, but the positioning and angles of the bonnet hood, and the angle of the wind shield has a big role to play there.

Crumple Zones are designed to absorb the shock of a collision gradually, and dissipate the same, through various structural elements, rather than transmitting the energy to the occupants!

In an SUV, the occupants sit higher, and that means being above the plane of impact in most accidents, hence feature to feature, SUV's would provide more safety to occupants than sedans.

[architect]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Slightly .

Crumple zones do not save pedestrian lives, but the positioning and angles of the bonnet hood, and the angle of the wind shield has a big role to play there.
.

OK, I agree with that error in using the word 'crumple zone', but what I meant is that I, as a pedestrian, would be rather be hit at 20 kph with a plastic bumper rather than a rusty after-market bull-bar from Karol Bagh.

[Rigid Rotor]

Well, the importance of old-style SUV's armour cannot really be sneezed away, politically incorrect though it may be. I recall an instance some years ago in Delhi, in my Tata Sierra, being rear-ended of sorts by a scooterist (old style Bajaj Chetak), after an abrupt halt. There was a fair bit of noise when the scooter impacted the rear steel bumper of the Sierra – the rider must have damaged his scooter’s front end a fair bit.

My reaction ? Well, I looked in the rear-view mirror, saw him waving apologetically to me and I waved back genially. That was about it. Later when I checked, there was barely a scratch on the bumper.

[shankar.balan]

Another small anecdote:

Sometime in 1997 or so I was driving my old soft top Gypsy somewhere in Madras (near Anna Nagar) en route a friend's house on a Sunday evening.
There was a bit of a jam ahead and the M800 ahead of me braked suddenly. I also did the same.

Behind me a TVS 50 which was going at a pretty good nick found he couldnt brake in time and ended up ramming my bumper and barking his nose and face against my rear spare wheel. He actually broke a couple of teeth I think. And his TVS 50 fork was clearly bent!

Of course he immediately started yelling etc and in no time at all there was an Inspector and lots of cops around plus a lot of passers by. I got out and stood there quietly till the fellow had finished invoking all the powers that be and so on.
Luckily I can speak the language and explained matters in a calm way. It helped that another pal of mine was with me in another car and seeing the havoc, he also stopped to help.

Everyone clearly saw that my brake lights were functioning etc and my vehicle was in good condition. The cop asked me to help the chap by taking him to hospital to get his face fixed, which I did. I said at the time that the law says that if someone hits a vehicle from behind, it is his fault and not the fault of the vehicle in front. This was agreed to by the cop.

Suddenly after getting that fellow some first aid etc, I was asked to go to the cop station and then was surrounded by people - turned out that the fellow on the TVS was a nephew of the local MLA or some local rabble rousing type politico. He claimed that the nephew was maimed for life and demanded compensation saying he couldnt go to work ever again and that I had spoilt his marriage plans and all that.

I stood firm that it was his own fault and not mine. I also invoked the names of some people I knew and said that if it came to it, I was quite prepared to take the matter to court. Also stated that as per the road rules and the law, it was his fault for banging me from behind and not mine. Plus I was prepared immediately to submit my vehicle to a proper brake test etc by competent authority.

Having said all this I still had to cool my heels sitting in the inspectors room in the cop station for some time. Around 2 hours later, the local inspector settled the show with the politico and told me that I didnt need to hang around any longer as it was not my fault. I had to "look after" the cops in the cop station by tipping them 500bucks for tea and refreshments. I did not mind that because they actually upheld the law. 500bucks was quite a bit of cash then and I wince even now at the hole it left in my pocket at the time.

But then, Madras of 10-12 years ago was a relatively nice clean place. Quite unlike the Bangalore of today!

Which brings me to my point - Im glad I had the Gypsy and the rear bumper and spare absorbed most of the shock- zero dent-zero damage.
good old Gypsy. If I had been in a car I m sure the damage to my pocket would have exceeded that Rs 500!

Originally Posted by Rigid Rotor

Well, the importance of old-style SUV's armour cannot really be sneezed away, Later when I checked, there was barely a scratch on the bumper.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Which brings me to my point - Im glad I had the Gypsy and the rear bumper and spare absorbed most of the shock- zero dent-zero damage.
good old Gypsy. If I had been in a car I m sure the damage to my pocket would have exceeded that Rs 500!

I have a slightly different opinion. If it was a modern sedan, the bumper would have flexed causing no damage to both the cars and the moped and the guy would have retained his tooth .