[shankar.balan]

Milecruncher.

yes deep inside I appreciate civic_sense's "sense" of what is fair and equitable. He appears to be an idealist. I was too, till not-so-long-ago.

But the rot is so so terribly deep that it appears whatever one does, honestly and fairly, one never seems to be the gainer - if one belongs to the "service class" so to say. That leads to disgust, cynicism and the fostering of an attitude which says - let me at least be smart and take advantage of things that are less expensive, in order to try and save something from the wreck!

I dont lack the courage to admit I have my foibles because Im not really worried about the world sitting in on judgement on me. I dont wish to be a hypocrite and hence, have openly stated my position.

No worries on this score - because however much we guys may debate on this forum and otherwise, the prices of Diesel at least in the near future, will remain considerably less than petrol. and more importantly, as the prices of Diesel rise, one will still have to pay the price in order to fill the tank, to be able to drive about and follow the lifestyle one has become accustomed to!

Later, at a time when there is parity between the two - petrol and diesel - if it ever comes to that, one can take an informed call about what sort of vehicle to choose, depending on one's needs at the time.

Until then I am certainly one of those who is un-apologetically going to take full advantage of the difference in prices!

Cheerio!

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

Interesting debate and I would like to be part of it.


I agree or rather I think I agree to 60% of your thought process. But I think calling "CRIMINAL" is taking it too far. Atleast he is being open. How many people have you seen to be open and forthright about controversial topics like this. You may not like his P.O.V. but give him his due for being forthright and candid.




Shankar, I do agree as well as disagree to lot of points raised by you. I can understand your disgust at the system after having paid taxes and seeing people get away. That is one reason why I DONT LIKE TAX LAWYERS ( One of them is good friend and on the forum)

I would rather suggest that let this thread be a place where we can thrash ideas to have a more equitable solution.


Cheers

[jalex77]

Maybe the government should even further susidize Diesel and help the Poor folks who ride in Beemers, Mercs, and other barges with wheels. And after the system collapses, Government that is, We can all live like they do in Greece now, barter system of all kinds was just re-introduced there.

Remember they too were like us, Corruption to the bone, Red tape, Lack of social responsibility, the works. Dont think we are on a different route and ship, we will be there where they are now unless we change the 'happens', 'so what?', 'who cares?', 'everyone does so will I' attitudes. You can see a lot of people openly saying selfish and socially or morally unacceptable things without any reluctance these days on public forums and in the media. They will always be having some lame excuse for being so. Someone once told me when he had nothing else to say in defense "Its because I told the truth, So from now on I will blatantly lie". He was instantly supported and I was singled out for saying what I did. Its shocking and appalling.

I guess its now fashionable to say that you are making or saving money and it does not matter if you manage that by taking advantage of some thing or the system.

Those of you who are out there to save cash are already losing out the money you saved through various other sources due to the escalating prices of everything. It comes back to you, The government at the moment will keep on increasing the price of Petrol to balance the losses incurred on Diesel, This will make everyone to go for Diesel vehicles and when the burden gets out of hand what would be the solution?

I have even lost all hope in having a debate which can be unbiased, socially right and fair. Its all about the 'I' now isn't it?

[acidkill]

Sorry to sound cynical, but this question is typical Solid soap opera socialism - tax the rich , save the poor etc.

im sure that the total number of luxury SUV's in the country that are used for "personal" purposes is less than 0.1% of the total number of cars. Having differential pricing is really not going to be of any use, as the net benefit to the country will be close to nothing*.

If you really want to make a difference in the way fuel is consumed, then make put laws and policies to increase fuel efficiency on the whole. Stop this Morarji Desai kind of symbolism. Its just great opium for the masses.

(im discounting all the MUV's and wannabe SUV's used for commercial applications)

[shibujp]

No - because i believe that all users of diesel for personal transport (i drive a diesel Swift) should not enjoy such a difference in pricing just because of a subsidy provided.

But it's for the govt. to figure out the muddle. We are in the current situation because successive govts have been more than happy to pass on the baton. and whose money goes into bailing out the oil companies anyway - the taxpayers of course.

And the solution that they come up with should not be another creative way of fostering corruption. The easiest way I feel is putting a surcharge on new diesel cars that goes directly to the OMC for making up thier deficit.

Drive on
Shibu.

[acidkill]

Well, if you are taking of the scope of the conversation beyond SUV's then also look at it this way - the diesel subsidy argument is a "half glass empty" way of looking at things.

Petrol is so heavily taxed in India, that nearly Rs 35-40 out of the Rs 60-65 that we pay per litre of petrol, goes into various central and state taxes. Diesel is not being subsidised per se, it is only being taxed lower.

If you ask me, i would ask the government to lower taxes on petrol rather than increase taxes on diesel.

[shankar.balan]

Did you see the papers this morning?

Even the price of milk is going up by Rs 4/- per litre in Bangalore!

In the end it is always the middle classes that get thrammed.

It is really the thin end of the wedge!

Originally Posted by jalex77

Maybe the government should even further susidize Diesel and help the Poor folks who ride in Beemers, Mercs, and other barges with wheels. And after the system collapses, Government that is, We can all live like they do in Greece now, barter system of all kinds was just re-introduced there.

Remember they too were like us, Corruption to the bone, Red tape, Lack of social responsibility, the works. Dont think we are on a different route and ship, we will be there where they are now unless we change the 'happens', 'so what?', 'who cares?', 'everyone does so will I' attitudes. You can see a lot of people openly saying selfish and socially or morally unacceptable things without any reluctance these days on public forums and in the media. They will always be having some lame excuse for being so. Someone once told me when he had nothing else to say in defense "Its because I told the truth, So from now on I will blatantly lie". He was instantly supported and I was singled out for saying what I did. Its shocking and appalling.

I guess its now fashionable to say that you are making or saving money and it does not matter if you manage that by taking advantage of some thing or the system.

Those of you who are out there to save cash are already losing out the money you saved through various other sources due to the escalating prices of everything. It comes back to you, The government at the moment will keep on increasing the price of Petrol to balance the losses incurred on Diesel, This will make everyone to go for Diesel vehicles and when the burden gets out of hand what would be the solution?

I have even lost all hope in having a debate which can be unbiased, socially right and fair. Its all about the 'I' now isn't it?

[ampere]

The way I look at it:

Govt may not be able to subsidize fuel further as per current market. But they cannot also let the end-consumer face the music, as diesel price fluctuation would directly have a bearing on the whole sale price index, essential commodities etc.

Given this global situation, govt may choose to add more duty to personal diesel vehicles, as a one time charge during purchase, which would be much more than petrol vehicles. This would include all vehicles from compact diesel hatches to Luxury SUVs.

This can be one way to nullify the diesel subsidy for personal use, but still the heavy vehicles enjoy this comfort.

[ACM]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Did you see the papers this morning?

Even the price of milk is going up by Rs 4/- per litre in Bangalore!

In the end it is always the middle classes that get thrammed.

It is really the thin end of the wedge!

And that rise too is happening without a rise in price of Diesel, lets just imagine the price rise if price of diesel was allowed to rise.

But i do feel that it is not just the middle class it's across the board. The poor are affected (and they don't pay any taxes at all.) the most, but the rich too do get an impact of this as no one can live without milk.

But coming back to the topic, it think people worring about the difference between petrol and diesel prices is a bit too much and petrol price is NOT subsidising the price of diesel so why do they bother in the first place, if diesel prices were higher petrol prices would not be any lower than they are as they are already decontroled and market linked.

[shankar.balan]

Onions went up to 85-90 per kg in the retail market last week. supply was poor over the last few weeks. then Tomatoes popped up to 60 Rs per kg last week. now milk will go up to Rs 21 or so per litre as of this week or so.

Yesterday at the shop I saw one of the construction workers who lives near my house. He had a 100 Rs note with him and had come to buy his daily 1 litre packet of milk for his family and 1 loaf bread too. He paid the current rate of Rs 16/- for the milk and Rs 20/- for bread.

On his way out I was chatting with him - he said he earns Rs 150 per day doing construction work. He had just spent 25% of his daily income on milk and bread. Suppose he goes through 1 kg Onion in a week and 1 kg tomatoes in a week to feed himself, his wife and 2 small kids - just think how much of his income disappears on food!

It will be far worse if the price of Diesel goes up and adds to the price increases and inflation - especially on essential food items. As it is we are experiencing galloping inflation - imagine what will happen if the price of Diesel is raised and this adds more fuel to the fire of inflation!

Originally Posted by ACM

And that rise too is happening without a rise in price of Diesel, lets just imagine the price rise if price of diesel was allowed to rise.

But coming back to the topic, it think people worring about the difference between petrol and diesel prices is a bit too much and petrol price is NOT subsidising the price of diesel so why do they bother in the first place, if diesel prices were higher petrol prices would not be any lower than they are as they are already decontroled and market linked.

[alpha1]

By removing the subsidy on diesel (for SUVs), the price of diesel will increase thus, the running cost for these SUV's will increase.

Thus there will be a lesser demand than current for these vehicles.
Which in turn will NOT allow the vehicle makers to charge a 5-10% premium over the petrol version.

So all you diesel head - don't you want the prices of the diesel vehicles to come down?

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

On his way out I was chatting with him - he said he earns Rs 150 per day doing construction work. He had just spent 25% of his daily income on milk and bread. Suppose he goes through 1 kg Onion in a week and 1 kg tomatoes in a week to feed himself, his wife and 2 small kids - just think how much of his income disappears on food!

Conspicuous consumption by one section of society in such a scenario will lead to riots on the streets pretty soon. I marvel this has not already happened. The govt should better do something asap.

Else, expect a rise in incidents of mugging and attacks on visibly well off individuals to increase drastically.

[amitk26]

people in power and those finance wizards sitting in north block are very clever indeed. They have cleverly diverted the public opinion and hoodwinked public through media to belive as if something is being subsidized.

We need to look in to the breakup of Central Excise and state VAT specifically levied on Petrol and Diesel and then check the amount of subsidy being payed.

As a tax payer and voter I would say take away all the subsidy on all fuels you give but then levy the excise and state tax as you are levying on any other consumer item. Prices will definitely come down instead of going up.

Manish Tiwari and Deora want us to believe that state governments are eating up the money , State governments want us to believe that center is doing the honors but fact is that both are taxing the fuel and giving back a small change in form of so called subsidy.

[srishiva]

The prices are rising without diesel fuel hikes. There is something wrong in our system and its not just related to diesel prices. All prices have increased. I saw yesterday that rice now costs over 40 rs. Our netas are busy with 2G, land and world cups.

[shankar.balan]

Shades of the French Revolution or the Bolshevik Revolution all over again?

The blood of the well off and the middle classes shall run in rivers down the streets of Bangalore, Madras and so on....

We may have paid our taxes, but the government cannot guarantee us decent law and order and/or protection from the lawless.
Interestingly, check your insurance policies - medical, car and so on - they specifically exclude acts of terrorism, war etc - so whats the recourse for people like us? in short, NOTHING.

Originally Posted by Gansan

Conspicuous consumption by one section of society in such a scenario will lead to riots on the streets pretty soon. I marvel this has not already happened. The govt should better do something asap.

Else, expect a rise in incidents of mugging and attacks on visibly well off individuals to increase drastically.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Shades of the French Revolution or the Bolshevik Revolution all over again?

I hope (and pray) not. But this is how the seeds of revolution are sown, historically. The current situation is fast becoming a tinder box. All it will need is a spark at the right time for the fires to start.

The poor and marginalized contrasting the sullen, malnourished faces of their children against conspicuous living by a section of people they see around them is a recipe for disaster. For them I may look rich, however hoarse I may cry that I am salaried middle class.

It is our good fortune that these people are infatuated with idiotic political parties and the left is unable to organize them in cities, unlike their naxal counterparts in some of the hinterlands. Why else is the govt unable to stamp out the naxals in their areas? Because they have support at the grassroots level.