Innova (diesel) problem

tsk1979 · 25th December 2005, 11:37

They are offering 80000 rs discount on E G1 and G2 variants(Lower end).

manishk13 · 27th December 2005, 11:56

Dear rdp

I am grateful to you for bringing to our notice the D4D woes. I have been shocked to read the problems on the Phillipines website that you referred to. I had booked my G2 diesel last week and delivery was due any day now. I have cancelled it. It was nice of Nandi Toyota to cancel and agree to the full refund without any questions asked. As a person investing hard earned 9 lakhs plus, I just wanted to be 100% sure and want to sleep at night with peace. Prefer to wait and watch and see if the problem in really genuine.

However is anti-climax for me after so much research and zeroing in on the Innova diesel. I have flirted with the idea of a Innova petrol (my mileage is approx 50 kms per day) and will probably go for that with a 2006 registraion. I love Innova's overall package and value proposition. I hope VVTI engine has no problems. What do you guys think?

Shantanu?

Thanks again rdp

Regards
Manish

tsk1979 · 27th December 2005, 12:17

50kms a day means you will save 4-5000rs/mo if you go for diesel.
Wait for toyota to issue a recall(its jan perhaps?)

brainscooper · 27th December 2005, 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdp

To use "normal" diesel without any additives which rules out all of the premium diesels like Turbojet, etc. Supposedly CRDi engines don't appreciate these premium diesels.

I would appreciate some input from a tech-savvy member about this one. I always thought that the additives used in premium fuels helped to clean out the injectors and other parts of the engine, keeping it purring happily. Emissions should go up only if the fuel is incompletely burnt, meaning that combustion is not proper or the exhaust system is not working properly. Adding System D to ordinary fuel would be similar to using premium diesel isnt it?

In my petrol Fusion, the manufacturer recommendation is to use normal petrol with System G. If one uses higher octane petrol with additives, then there is no need for this!

ported_head · 27th December 2005, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Wait for toyota to issue a recall(its jan perhaps?)

I think they conveniently leave out India when it comes to recalls.

Honda did the same, Accord V6 trannies for a certain model year, can't remember which one, had issues when shifting into a certain gear. They issued a recall in America and Canada, got the problem fixed, no news of a recall in India though. Some days back, Nitroxx told me of a V6 which had shifting problems, directed him to the linky where I read of the recall, it was exactly the same issue.

I would have sued Honda and been a rich man now, only if it wasn't for the legal intricacies in our country, and if I owned a Accord V6.

You can read more about it here: http://www.v6performance.net/forums/...ad.php?t=31979

oldmobile · 27th December 2005, 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by manishk13

Dear rdp

I am grateful to you for bringing to our notice the D4D woes. I have been shocked to read the problems on the Phillipines website that you referred to. I had booked my G2 diesel last week and delivery was due any day now. I have cancelled it. It was nice of Nandi Toyota to cancel and agree to the full refund without any questions asked. As a person investing hard earned 9 lakhs plus, I just wanted to be 100% sure and want to sleep at night with peace. Prefer to wait and watch and see if the problem in really genuine.

However is anti-climax for me after so much research and zeroing in on the Innova diesel. I have flirted with the idea of a Innova petrol (my mileage is approx 50 kms per day) and will probably go for that with a 2006 registraion. I love Innova's overall package and value proposition. I hope VVTI engine has no problems. What do you guys think?

Shantanu?

Thanks again rdp

Regards
Manish

I too decided to wait till next year for the same reasons even though the dealer told me that is no longer a problem. However, given that most of the Innovas sold are the diesel version, that there are quite a few Innovas on B'lore roads, that you never see black smoke coming from any of them, I wonder if I should have gone ahead with the purchase and got 1% financing. Not sure if the 1% interest promotion will be there next year too.

Has anyone contacted Toyota India directly regarding this problem? Who should I call?

Do you know when the 2006 models will be available?

sivadas · 28th December 2005, 14:10

I doubt whether skoda makes common rail engines, instead they have PD(pump duse which is a competitor technology to the CRD one) as in Laura. Again, I dont think other Common rail engines from Hyundai or Mahindra ever had similar issues as in Toyota.

amit · 28th December 2005, 19:56

Quote:

the diesesl seem s to be the culprit rather than the fuel pump design flaw

The culprit is the fuel pump and not the diesel. Why does the Mercedes Cdi engine not have the same problem? Even Hyundai's Accent CRdi runs on the same diesel as Innova and I have never heard such a problem on the Accent till today. Heck, even "lowly" Mahindra Scorpio's Crde runs on the same diesel without any problems.
As for those waiting for Toyota to issue a recall. Forget it guys. Thats not going to happen. Toyota will get the issue resolved quietly as and when customers bring in the car with the complaint to their dealers. But I don't see a official recall happening.

Mpower · 28th December 2005, 21:04

I believe Toyota is using FI system from a supplier called Denso, who is fairly new to the Common Rail industry.

RedOne · 29th December 2005, 11:44

Nit-picking maybe, but the problems faced in D4D engines in Phillipines is different from what is described here. The engines have a "stalling" problem there, as in stalling at low revs/idling unless one gives more throttle.

I've been watching the thread(s) in the Tsikot forums for sometime now, as I'm one of those eagerly waiting for the Fortuner to be launched in India.

Gears,
Red-One.

manishk13 · 2nd January 2006, 10:34

Oldmobile

Nandi Toyota in Bangalore informs that new model and prices will be available from 15th Jan

Manish

slk smita · 6th January 2006, 21:16

Dear rdp

For50 kms a day, please consider the interest cost of the vehicle i.e. the difference you would pay in the price of a petrol and a diesel vehicle the rate of interest in case you are taking a loan or not.

Then consider the maintanance cost of the vehicle i.e. the maintanance intervals. For some diesel vehicles it is 5000 kms or 7500 kms and petrol vehicles it is 10000 kms. The cost of each service for petrol and diesel.

Lastly you consider the difference in fuel cost and the amount you will save in the difference.

According to me, the avantage of diesel will only kick in if you run close to or more than 80 kms per day.

jat · 6th January 2006, 22:38

All the manufacterers know about the quality of fuel being sold in the country and they develop their engines keeping fuel quality in mind. That's why many petrol engines are less powered in India compared to countries having better fuel control system. Therefore no dealer can blame the premium diesel or normal diesel for engine failures. And if there is restriction on fuel, it will definetely be in writing. Instructions would be provided to avoid the conditions and quality in their manuals or seperately. The delaer who is blaming the premium fuel for black smoke is simply telling a big lie.

The cause of smoke could be due to faulty ECU or anything which is affecting flow of air and fuel.

rejika · 7th January 2006, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by slk smita

Dear rdp

For50 kms a day, please consider the interest cost of the vehicle i.e. the difference you would pay in the price of a petrol and a diesel vehicle the rate of interest in case you are taking a loan or not.

Then consider the maintanance cost of the vehicle i.e. the maintanance intervals. For some diesel vehicles it is 5000 kms or 7500 kms and petrol vehicles it is 10000 kms. The cost of each service for petrol and diesel.

Lastly you consider the difference in fuel cost and the amount you will save in the difference.

According to me, the avantage of diesel will only kick in if you run close to or more than 80 kms per day.

I had the same dilemma when deciding between petrol and diesel .Finally brought a diesel Innova. Mileage apart , the main reason going for diesel was its resale value. In my opinion diesel is likely to hold its value while it will be difficult to sell a petrol Innova.

quicksilver · 11th January 2006, 14:05

Hi guys,

Yesterday I was talking to a long time friend of mine about T-BHP and stuff discussed here when the topic about the Innova problems came up. He owns a G3 Diesel Innova that has done about 9K so far. I know he is very particular about his cars and fills ONLY in his usual pump which he has fouud to be reliable over the years. Infact all his cars get filled in that place only, so that leaves out the question of adulterated fuel. Now, he fills only premium (think it is Turbojet) diesel ever since he bought the Innova. He told me about the problems he had been facing lately, which are exactly the same as the ones posted here..... excessive smoke, drop in engine power etc.

I have directed him to print out the thread here and show it to the dealer and see what he says. Looks like he had been assured that the issue will be fixed by the local dealer.

Now, can anyone let me know what specifically we should be looking for ? like if they are just going to clean the injection system and the same problem might occur after another 8-9K or so.... he typically drives about 1K per month max so it could be a very long time before we realise if the problem is going to occur again....

I guess he should insist on a fuel pump change... advices anyone ?

thanks in advance guys.

25th December 2005, 11:37	#31
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,825 Times View My Garage	They are offering 80000 rs discount on E G1 and G2 variants(Lower end).
	() Thanks

27th December 2005, 11:56	#32
manishk13 BANNED Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 27 Thanked: Once	I have cancelled my Innova order Dear rdp I am grateful to you for bringing to our notice the D4D woes. I have been shocked to read the problems on the Phillipines website that you referred to. I had booked my G2 diesel last week and delivery was due any day now. I have cancelled it. It was nice of Nandi Toyota to cancel and agree to the full refund without any questions asked. As a person investing hard earned 9 lakhs plus, I just wanted to be 100% sure and want to sleep at night with peace. Prefer to wait and watch and see if the problem in really genuine. However is anti-climax for me after so much research and zeroing in on the Innova diesel. I have flirted with the idea of a Innova petrol (my mileage is approx 50 kms per day) and will probably go for that with a 2006 registraion. I love Innova's overall package and value proposition. I hope VVTI engine has no problems. What do you guys think? Shantanu? Thanks again rdp Regards Manish
	() Thanks

27th December 2005, 12:17	#33
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,825 Times View My Garage	50kms a day means you will save 4-5000rs/mo if you go for diesel. Wait for toyota to issue a recall(its jan perhaps?)
	() Thanks

28th December 2005, 14:10	#37
sivadas BHPian Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 506 Thanked: 208 Times View My Garage	I doubt whether skoda makes common rail engines, instead they have PD(pump duse which is a competitor technology to the CRD one) as in Laura. Again, I dont think other Common rail engines from Hyundai or Mahindra ever had similar issues as in Toyota.
	() Thanks

28th December 2005, 21:04	#39
Mpower Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 10,409 Thanked: 1,730 Times View My Garage	I believe Toyota is using FI system from a supplier called Denso, who is fairly new to the Common Rail industry.
	() Thanks

29th December 2005, 11:44	#40
RedOne BHPian Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 338 Thanked: 93 Times View My Garage	Nit-picking maybe, but the problems faced in D4D engines in Phillipines is different from what is described here. The engines have a "stalling" problem there, as in stalling at low revs/idling unless one gives more throttle. I've been watching the thread(s) in the Tsikot forums for sometime now, as I'm one of those eagerly waiting for the Fortuner to be launched in India. Gears, Red-One.
	() Thanks

2nd January 2006, 10:34	#41
manishk13 BANNED Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 27 Thanked: Once	Oldmobile Nandi Toyota in Bangalore informs that new model and prices will be available from 15th Jan Manish
	() Thanks

6th January 2006, 21:16	#42
slk smita Newbie Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: bombay Posts: 1 Thanked: 0 Times	50 kms a day Dear rdp For50 kms a day, please consider the interest cost of the vehicle i.e. the difference you would pay in the price of a petrol and a diesel vehicle the rate of interest in case you are taking a loan or not. Then consider the maintanance cost of the vehicle i.e. the maintanance intervals. For some diesel vehicles it is 5000 kms or 7500 kms and petrol vehicles it is 10000 kms. The cost of each service for petrol and diesel. Lastly you consider the difference in fuel cost and the amount you will save in the difference. According to me, the avantage of diesel will only kick in if you run close to or more than 80 kms per day.
	() Thanks

6th January 2006, 22:38	#43
jat BHPian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: SINGAPORE Posts: 265 Thanked: 7 Times	All the manufacterers know about the quality of fuel being sold in the country and they develop their engines keeping fuel quality in mind. That's why many petrol engines are less powered in India compared to countries having better fuel control system. Therefore no dealer can blame the premium diesel or normal diesel for engine failures. And if there is restriction on fuel, it will definetely be in writing. Instructions would be provided to avoid the conditions and quality in their manuals or seperately. The delaer who is blaming the premium fuel for black smoke is simply telling a big lie. The cause of smoke could be due to faulty ECU or anything which is affecting flow of air and fuel.
	() Thanks

11th January 2006, 14:05	#45
quicksilver BHPian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Coimbatore Posts: 455 Thanked: 12 Times View My Garage	another Innova with the same problem Hi guys, Yesterday I was talking to a long time friend of mine about T-BHP and stuff discussed here when the topic about the Innova problems came up. He owns a G3 Diesel Innova that has done about 9K so far. I know he is very particular about his cars and fills ONLY in his usual pump which he has fouud to be reliable over the years. Infact all his cars get filled in that place only, so that leaves out the question of adulterated fuel. Now, he fills only premium (think it is Turbojet) diesel ever since he bought the Innova. He told me about the problems he had been facing lately, which are exactly the same as the ones posted here..... excessive smoke, drop in engine power etc. I have directed him to print out the thread here and show it to the dealer and see what he says. Looks like he had been assured that the issue will be fixed by the local dealer. Now, can anyone let me know what specifically we should be looking for ? like if they are just going to clean the injection system and the same problem might occur after another 8-9K or so.... he typically drives about 1K per month max so it could be a very long time before we realise if the problem is going to occur again.... I guess he should insist on a fuel pump change... advices anyone ? thanks in advance guys. Last edited by quicksilver : 11th January 2006 at 14:09.
	() Thanks