[trinity0114]

Originally Posted by humyum

Sorry to say, like the many things this government has done, I am against all of this high fine drama too for the main reason I have shared below.

Stop seeing everything with your Political glasses. For a change to come somewhere something has to be started and its a step in the right direction. The hefty fines are a bother for the ones who dont follow rules, majority of the cases being reported in the news where challan amounts run into thousands are of people not wearing helmets, carrying documents etc. and not of policemen unnecessarily harassing law abiding motorists. If the whole system is corrupt that doesn't mean that nothing should be done to improve things.

[deepjaju]

Imagine these scenarios:

Old fines: Imagine you get caught by a cop and he charges for driving without a license. Earlier fine was 500/- but you negotiate a bribe for say 200 to let you off the hook. Obviously bribe will work for settling amount less than 500/- else it becomes pointless.

New fines: Same as above cop catches you but now the fine is 5000/-. Do you think he will agree for 200/- to let you off the hook ? Obviously no right. He will now take 2000/- as bribe atleast.

So basically what happens is 2000/- bribe has been paid instead of the actual 5000/- fine, but you have paid 10 times the amount than before. So corruption is not gone but you for sure will be damn cautious next time you drive cause you don't wanna spend 2000/- (even for a bribe). So you will take the rules & laws more seriously.

I think that is the actual purpose of the law. Corruption cannot be taken out in anyway unless the person is not corrupt. The system is corrupt because of the people involved (the cop, and you in this case)

To weed out corruption I feel technology is the only way forward. Cops should be held accountable if they fine someone. Proof should be compulsory. So in case of disputes it will show the truth because right now its totally based on the cop's word (but it can be wrong as well). This gives the cops undue power. Cameras in their pockets (like in dubai), violations should be recorded and fines should be paid digitally. These are the only ways to stop corruption.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by trinity0114

Stop seeing everything with your Political glasses. For a change to come somewhere something has to be started and its a step in the right direction. The hefty fines are a bother for the ones who dont follow rules, majority of the cases being reported in the news where challan amounts run into thousands are of people not wearing helmets, carrying documents etc. and not of policemen unnecessarily harassing law abiding motorists. If the whole system is corrupt that doesn't mean that nothing should be done to improve things.

You are agreeing with what is happening with your political glasses too, quoting my post without taking the corruption angle into the picture at all which I was talking about. Someone had to do it eh? Like someone had to do demonetization and destroy the economy and lives of crores of people with the fake narrative of weeding out black money and terrorism. I have seen and heard enough in last many years to know who and what I should believe from whom.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/he...t-2293461.html

I am glad, 4 states are already opposing this and some states have simply asked its police to not collect heavy fines.

https://www.orissapost.com/mv%E2%80%...oad-offenders/

Originally Posted by trinity0114

If the whole system is corrupt that doesn't mean that nothing should be done to improve things.

You are saying the hefty fines need to be imposed first and then corruption later should be weeded out, its like saying, give weapons to terrorist first and then figure out how to finish them?

Hefty fines are a bother to everyone because fines are not imposed just because you are wrong, cops catch you because they want to earn money and that is their whole and sole purpose. Lived in many states over many lakhs of kilometers of road trips to know how cops all over are.

In Ahmedabad, a year back, I was stopped because he saw the MH number plate. My car had every paper required by the cop possible, he fined me for having the Hella's which were below the headlight level and hence legal too. In front of him, I showed him hundreds of people not stopping at signals, not wearing a helmet, triple seat, not wearing a seat belt, but he cared two hoots, he wanted me because I will not go to court in that state if he takes my licence and I challenge his nonsense, because I live in Mumbai. This is thuggery and this is what every traffic police does all over the country.

Just today at 6:30 am, going to bandra on a saturday, I saw cops all over the place, standing at every junction, why is that? To make money of course and nothing more. Firstly, they are not supposed to stop you just to check papers, they were doing so none the less.

When a cop stops you for a traffic signal break or even stopping a little ahead of the zebra line and adds dangerous driving, lane cutting and what not to the challan, does it for what? To increase the fine. Dangerous driving is now 1000-5000 rupees. Zebra lines near my old office are not even visible from the car.

Government does not want to do anything about the roads, nothing about corruption, keeps hiking petrol/diesel prices by adding cess when the crude prices go down, has no clear vision or roadmap on any policy ( 120 kmph beeper continuously but is now bringing in 120 kmph speed limits on some highways) and now these fines. I am against giving a lot of power to people who are known and proven to be corrupt since decades, these fines are just giving them unprecedented access to your bank account.

[jaaz]

Disagree with the hefty fines per se.

In the last 2 decades, I've discussed with many to introduce points system, including Traffic cops. Traffic cops do agree with me on all aspects, except implementation, as it is not in their hands.

You can deduct points for every violation and then credit back the points, if there is no violation in the next 3 months. This will make the motorists correct themselves. Now, the technology is ready to implement such system as cops are using electronic devices.

Fine can be imposed only on person without License.

Keep a limit on the number of points and then suspend the License for 6 months, If the violations cross the specified points. Many times, we break some laws unintentionally, like signal jumping, forgetting to keep the documents in the vehicle etc., But, few are intentional, like not wearing helmet, breaking one way rule etc., Points for unintentional violations should be far lesser than the intentional violations.

Most of the decisions taken by govt.'s are like one way system, without even thinking. Increase the Tax, Fines, Penalties etc., Till date, no one has questioned nor answered, where will be these amounts spent.

[trinity0114]

Originally Posted by humyum

You are agreeing with what is happening with your political glasses too, quoting my post without taking the corruption angle into the picture at all which I was talking about. Someone had to do it eh? Like someone had to do demonetization and destroy the economy and lives of crores of people with the fake narrative of weeding out black money and terrorism. I have seen and heard enough in last many years to know who and what I should believe from whom.

I am supporting the move, that dosent automatically means supporting the government, which sadly you cant fathom as you see politics in everything. T-Bhp isn't a place to discuss whatever you wrote above so will suggest you to avoid voicing the outright hate you have for the ruling party on this forum

Originally Posted by humyum

I am glad, 4 states are already opposing this and some states have simply asked its police to not collect heavy fines.

They are opposing just because they are ruled by the opposition parties & not on valid grounds.

Originally Posted by humyum

You are saying the hefty fines need to be imposed first and then corruption later should be weeded out, its like saying, give weapons to terrorist first and then figure out how to finish them?

When did I say or suggest all this? Stop putting words in others' mouths. What I meant was a 'repair job' or a 'clean-up' has to start from somewhere. Having hefty fines are already having an effect at many places as has been reported across media/social media, if you cant see that then its your problem not mine.

Originally Posted by humyum

Hefty fines are a bother to everyone because fines are not imposed just because you are wrong, cops catch you because they want to earn money and that is their whole and sole purpose. Lived in many states over many lakhs of kilometers of road trips to know how cops all over are.

Its a society problem & only the system or government cant be guilty of all this. Person breaking rules, paying bribes is guiltier than the one accepting it. Its like saying everyone is corrupt so don't improve anything sit back & relax, you may not like the method but thats democracy.

Originally Posted by humyum

Government does not want to do anything about the roads, nothing about corruption, keeps hiking petrol/diesel prices by adding cess when the crude prices go down, has no clear vision or roadmap on any policy ( 120 kmph beeper continuously but is now bringing in 120 kmph speed limits on some highways) and now these fines. I am against giving a lot of power to people who are known and proven to be corrupt since decades, these fines are just giving them unprecedented access to your bank account.

Again its your opinion that they dont want to do anything or nothing good is happening but many people dont agree with you.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by trinity0114

I am supporting the move, that dosent automatically means supporting the government, which sadly you cant fathom as you see politics in everything. T-Bhp isn't a place to discuss whatever you wrote above so will suggest you to avoid voicing the outright hate you have for the ruling party on this forum

I am against many things this government does, does not mean I am against everything it does. That argument goes both ways man. Demonstration is not politics, its lot more than that, there is a whole thread on team-bhp on that.

Originally Posted by trinity0114

They are opposing just because they are ruled by the opposition parties & not on valid grounds.

Gujarati s not opposition ruled state. Again, you got politics in this, what is valid grounds? They find these fines unreasonable they are opposing, everyone can't say haan ji sir ji to everything.

http://overdrive.in/news-cars-auto/g...ment-act-2019/

Originally Posted by trinity0114

When did I say or suggest all this? Stop putting words in others' mouths. What I meant was a 'repair job' or a 'clean-up' has to start from somewhere. Having hefty fines are already having an effect at many places as has been reported across media/social media, if you cant see that then its your problem not mine

Originally Posted by trinity0114

If the whole system is corrupt that doesn't mean that nothing should be done to improve things.

You said 'This is improving things', why not start with first ways to finish corruption then start with imposing fines? This is just giving a free hand to the corrupt to loot the public and that is exactly what is means, the public will suffer not some big shot who made these rules sitting in some mansion. You are again avoiding the topic of corruption, I can see the cops catching people left right and center and people are reporting that too, why the need for the police to act like goons suddenly from morning till night?If you can't seem to acknowledge that, that is not my problem too.

Originally Posted by trinity0114

Its a society problem & only the system or government cant be guilty of all this. Person breaking rules, paying bribes is guiltier than the one accepting it. Its like saying everyone is corrupt so don't improve anything sit back & relax, you may not like the method but thats democracy.

The person paying bribe is more guilty than someone in uniform accepting it? In the eyes of the law, both are equally guilty, So please, read up on some laws. Government can't be guilty for corruption? Really? Someone paying a bribe has sworn no oath for anything, the guy in the uniform has, hence he has been bestowed upon with whatever power he has and the right to enforce it.

Originally Posted by trinity0114

Again its your opinion that they dont want to do anything or nothing good is happening but many people dont agree with you.

and that opinion will remain so, I am not the many people.

Let's just agree to disagree!

[FrodoOfTheShire]

Originally Posted by humyum

and that opinion will remain so, I am not the many people.

Let's just agree to disagree!

Yep, at the end of the day its all about opinions. To each his own. You're opposing this move because you had some bitter experience where you were wrongly fined with no fault of yours. Some other traffic rules abiding citizen might've had another experience where they had an accident or got injured due to someone else's drunk/underage/reckless/wrong side driving. They would definitely welcome this move if this is able to straighten out some of those habitual offenders.

Whether those offenders correct themselves after paying hefty fines needs to be seen, but I do hope so.

[Ragavsr]

I dont understand why the onus of carrying the driving licemce is on me, when the government and the police have access to my licence and data via my finger print.

Let the cops have finger print enabled devices that can fetch my licence . It does away with the menace of fake licences too.

[TorqueyTechie]

Originally Posted by Ragavsr

I dont understand why the onus of carrying the driving licemce is on me, when the government and the police have access to my licence and data via my finger print.

Let the cops have finger print enabled devices that can fetch my licence . It does away with the menace of fake licences too.

Because the licensing system is not completely online in all states plus not all police men have the system to fetch the details from online (at least in tier2 or tier3 cities).

Having the documents in person helps in quickly identifying that you hold a valid license (fake one or not that is secondary) plus if there is a major incident they can confiscate physical copy of the license making it mandatory that you cannot drive/ride anywhere.

[dozer]

The traffic violations should be linked to the insurance premiums. Perhaps violations could result in points and more points mean higher premiums during renewal. Higher risk of damages to self and assests obviously results in higher insurance premiums and violation points indicates thst the driver is higher risk.

[MadTitan47]

I think one demographic which has been neglected in the discussion are the poor. The hefty fines may serve as a deterrent for someone driving a car, but for an auto driver one challaan may end up eating into his one year's savings. An auto/loading Rickshaw may be violating the laws out of some compulsions to provide for his family; and a Honda City driver may be violating the laws just for the heck of it. But the exorbitant fines inflict extremely severe punishment on the auto driver, someone most probably living on hand to mouth basis, as compared to someone well off.

Basically we have put a price tag on violations of law.

The fine amounts shall be rationalised. Non-monetary aspects of the punishment shall be made stringent. The focus has to be on efficient compliance rather than on the exuberant statutes. It has been concluded by many studies across the globe that more than the severity of the punishment, it is the certainty of the punishment that results in effective deterrence. Increasing the severity of punishment leads to increase in corruption and lower convictions.

Lastly, as someone pointed out, technology is the only way forward, which can solve the twin problem of corruption and compliance.

[Nilesh5417]

Originally Posted by MadTitan47

I think one demographic which has been neglected in the discussion are poor. The hefty fines may serve as a deterrent for someone driving a car, but for an auto driver one challaan may end up eating into his one year's savings. An auto/loading Rickshaw may be violating the laws out of some compulsions to provide for his family; and a Honda City driver may be violating the laws just for the heck of it. But the exorbitant fines inflict extremely severe punishment on the auto driver, someone most probably living on hand to mouth basis, as compared to someone well off.
.

The uneducated and so called poor form the majority on our roads and you only have to see how unsafe the Auto drivers can be. If it instills some fear and forces them to understand the rules and stick to them, this is worth it.
Same goes for the educated and middle class white collar guy who chooses to come wrong side or ride his two wheeler over a footpath and cause traffic jams. And same goes for a rich guy who drinks and drives and causes loss of lives cause 'tu janta nahi mera baap Kaun hai' syndrome.
The law must be equal and based on the offense and not a person's social strata cause the end result in case of an accident is equal no matter.

Though one set of people who cause equal nuisance on yhe roads but go Scot free are pedestrians. Am waiting for the day when we will have fines for jay walking!!

But India simply fails in implementing the laws, simply increasing fines will be a short term detterant cause people find their way to beat the system. Your last sentence is spot on - technology and automation are only ways to solve this catch 22.

[nigr]

Originally Posted by MadTitan47

I think one demographic which has been neglected in the discussion are the poor. The hefty fines may serve as a deterrent for someone driving a car, but for an auto driver one challaan may end up eating into his one year's savings. ....

Violations based on compulsion as in an emergency/urgency can and should be dealt with, on a per-case basis. Otherwise, road laws shouldn’t be drafted and enforced based on the economic ability. They’re plying on the road just as anyone else and they have a responsibility to not flout the rules put in place, just like anybody else.

I do agree with you on efficient compliance, but it realistically can’t be achieved in India without a strong punishment. I personally think the increase in the monetary sum has led to some positive change, at least in my city. I’ve observed increased compliance all around in the recent days.

[MadTitan47]

Originally Posted by nigr

Violations based on compulsion as in an emergency/urgency can and should be dealt with, on a per-case basis. Otherwise, road laws shouldn’t be drafted and enforced based on the economic ability. They’re plying on the road just as anyone else and they have a responsibility to not flout the rules put in place, just like anybody else.

I agree that everyone on the road have equal responsibility in following the rules. I just wanted to point out that we should be mindful about the proportion of the punishment. Levying a fine of 35,000 on a auto worth 25,000 is NOT equal to levying the same fine on a car worth 10L. Hence a balanced amount is necessary.

Originally Posted by nigr

I do agree with you on efficient compliance, but it realistically can’t be achieved in India without a strong punishment. I personally think the increase in the monetary sum has led to some positive change, at least in my city. I’ve observed increased compliance all around in the recent days.

Well, many commissions recommend the opposite, including Law Commission of India. It has been a well documented fact that strict laws does not decrease crime rates and instead leads to decrease in conviction rates. There is a tendency to address the problems by making more strict laws, because that is easy compared to addressing the structural issues.
For example, in the aftermath of Nirbhaya case, the laws are made very stringent, death penalty is included and even juvenile provisions are diluted. But still it has failed to achieve decrease in the cases of sexual harassment.

In the initial phase of MVA implementation, police corruption is low and compliance has increased, but it will be to interesting to appraise the situation when the initial euphoria settles down, maybe few months down the lane.

[FrodoOfTheShire]

Link

Odisha gives three-month window to people on MV Act

Faced with growing discontentment over enforcement of the Motor Vehicles (Amendment) Act, 2019, in the State, the Odisha government on Monday gave a three-month window to people to get their papers ready.

Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik, directed the enforcement agencies not to go on an overdrive but rather counsel and guide the public to facilitate compliance with the amended provisions of the Act.

“The Transport Department has been directed to augment public services, strengthen the facilitation centres, open extra counters and conduct camps in public institutions so as to enable motor vehicle users to update their compliance status,” Mr. Patnaik said in a statement.

The CM’s order came two days after people and police fought a pitched battle at busy Rajmahal Square in Bhubaneswar over the enforcement of the amended Act. The face-off took place when people insisted on examining if police and other government vehicles had valid papers.