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The all-new generation Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 will be the first car in GM's lineup to boast of a super-advanced, lightning quick,
10-speed automatic transmission.
It will also be the first time a 10-speed AT box is offered on a mass-production car.
Basically of the same size as the normal GM 6-speed and 8-speed transmission boxes, this 10-speed AT promises super-fast upshifts while producing better fuel efficiency than it's cousins due to a new ultra-low viscosity transmission fluid which reduces friction between gears.
The Camaro ZL1 will be the first GM vehicle to offer this new 10-speed automatic box specifically designed for rear-wheel-drive applications, and it will be available in eight additional GM vehicles by 2018.
Quote:
“There is simply nothing like the experience offered with the new 10-speed automatic in the Camaro ZL1,” said Aaron Link, ZL1 lead development engineer. “It delivers nearly instantaneous, lightning-fast shifts that alter your perception of what an automatic transmission can offer in a high-performance vehicle – whether you’re on the street, drag strip or road course.”
The greater overall performance and efficiency are due primarily to the 10-speed’s wider 7.39 overall gear ratio spread, which enhances off-the-line performance with an aggressive first gear ratio of 4.70. Smaller steps between the gears also help the engine maintain the optimal speed for maximum power at almost all vehicle speeds, especially when exiting a corner on a track.
“The gear ratios are so tightly spaced that the transmission is in the right gear and the engine is at the best rpm for transitions from corners to straights,” said Link. “And with the power from the ZL1’s supercharged LT4 engine, the force you feel in your seat as you accelerate out of a turn will put a grin on your face every time.”
Chevrolet testing has shown the ZL1 with the available 10-speed has faster shift times than the Porsche PDK dual-clutch transmission. In fact, the 1-2 upshift is 36-percent quicker than the PDK, while the 2-3 and 3-4 upshifts are 27-percent and 26-percent quicker, respectively.
“You touch the paddle and the gear changes with immediacy,” said Link. “The shifts happen so quickly and without delay that it almost feels like an extension of your reflexes. It’s a much more involving experience for the driver that really helps improve confidence and performance on the track.”
Hundreds of hours were spent integrating the 10-speed’s shift performance with the unique power band of the ZL1’s supercharged 6.2L LT4 engine, which is estimated at 640 horsepower and 640 lb-ft of torque.
The 10-speed also has a numerically lower top gear ratio than Camaro’s eight-speed automatics, which allows the engine to run at a lower speed on the highway, enabling even greater efficiency.
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Official Press Release
So this a torque converter unit which claims to be faster than PDK. Very interesting !!. If true it will push the innovation at VW camp further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi
(Post 3979631)
It will also be the first time a 10-speed AT box is offered on a mass-production car.
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:OT
When I read 10-speed gearbox, I couldn't help getting this picture in my mind. :uncontrol
Thank god it is an AT.
Its like law of diminishing returns. How in the real world are you going to use 10 ratios? I remember when I test drove the new Mercedes GLC here with the nine speed gearbox. Even at the maximum legal highway speeds it went only upto gear 7. They said it will be in 9th when you are doing 150+! Makes no sense at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque
(Post 3979939)
Its like law of diminishing returns. How in the real world are you going to use 10 ratios? I remember when I test drove the new Mercedes GLC here with the nine speed gearbox. Even at the maximum legal highway speeds it went only upto gear 7. They said it will be in 9th when you are doing 150+! Makes no sense at all.
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Makes a lot of sense if you actually look at it properly. 10 gears means a much closer gear ratio which lends better acceleration at low speeds and high speeds and keeps the engine in its power band which is very useful especially when switching between different types of tracks with varying types of corners. Because it is a 10 speed, the 1st gear can be kept short so it does not even have to sacrifice 1st gear aggressiveness to achieve a closer ratio so performance off the line is also better. The GM 10 speed box actually employs a higher 10th gear ratio than the Merc's 9th gear. Which means you can sit on higher gears while cruising down the highway depending on your level of throttle input. Besides it doesn't take a lot of genius to figure out that with its close ratios and 10 gears to choose from, the GM gearbox offers the best of both performance and efficiency. Even in the real world, this does actually make sense. With a supercharged V8 you will find it hard to stay under the speed limit on the highways. The gearbox is a major component lower frictional loss and improved gear ratios, can make or break the way a car performs (just compare the way a 75hp fgt 1.3 mjd performs in a Suzuki to the way a 90hp vgt 1.3 performs in a Fiat). More gears simply means more gear ratios to play with allowing the car to perform quicker and more efficiently over a wider range of situations. Afterall, there is a reason why CVTs are still popular atleast lower down the foodchain because no amount of gears is too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag
(Post 3979956)
The 10-speed box in case that you mentioned is acting as a virtual 7-speed unit with 3 gears just spinning for no fun and wasting power.
I am happy manufacturers are advancing on research to better out the driving and ease plus to maximize efficiency but a 10-speed unit is too much and mostly usable only on supercars/hypercars. The regular mango man isn't much benefitted anyway.
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You need to look at it from both angles not just the efficiency factor. Those gears that you claim are "just spinning for no fun and wasting power", actually allow you to gain speed more efficiently for example when you are trying to pass someone at highway speeds.
The Camaro ZL1 does have impressive levels of performance. Some would say close to supercar levels. "Mango man" is also greatly benefited from such applications. There is no such thing as the perfect gear ratio right? So why not have more gears so that you can have more gear ratios? It allows for better performance from smaller motors or from cars with poor power-to-weight ratios. Most of us enthusiasts would be greatly benefited if such transmissions were fitted in our otherwise uninspiring city hatchbacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque
(Post 3979939)
Even at the maximum legal highway speeds it went only upto gear 7. They said it will be in 9th when you are doing 150+! Makes no sense at all.
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6-speed gearbox in India is great and all we drive mostly in is 1-2-3. It is the highways that would warrant use of 4-5-6.
Now if the same 10-speed AT is put in a regular car, it'll keep going mad changing gears all the time hunting for the best gear.
The 10-speed box in case that you mentioned is acting as a virtual 7-speed unit with 3 gears just spinning for no fun and wasting power.
I am happy manufacturers are advancing on research to better out the driving and ease plus to maximize efficiency but a 10-speed unit is too much and mostly usable only on supercars/hypercars. The regular mango man isn't much benefitted anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag
(Post 3979956)
I am happy manufacturers are advancing on research to better out the driving and ease plus to maximize efficiency but a 10-speed unit is too much and mostly usable only on supercars/hypercars. The regular mango man isn't much benefitted anyway.
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The articles also says that this 10 Speed AT is Launched in Camaro, which is a super car or sports car, which ever we like to call it.
I think closely spaced ratios help to attain maximum acceleration.
GM already has 6 Speed and 8 Speed ATs for other applications.
That said, I agree with you, 6 Speed AT is more suitable for day 2 day use.
My Skoda Rapid has a 7 Speed DSG and I rarely see D6 or D7 engaged in the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F150
(Post 3979973)
That said, I agree with you, 6 Speed AT is more suitable for day 2 day use.
My Skoda Rapid has a 7 Speed DSG and I rarely see D6 or D7 engaged in the city.
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5th gear in the city itself, is a testament to the benefits of such a box. I never use 5th and rarely get the chance to use 4th in the city in my Manual Kiz. At the end of the day, if all our cars were designed solely for city application, then we'd be driving Revas ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque
(Post 3979939)
They said it will be in 9th when you are doing 150+! Makes no sense at all.
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Similarly I have driven the E-Class puttering at 1500 RPM in ninth gear in Autobahn speeds. Thats when I realised why this transmission was made for :D Even then, it had enough power to throw you back into the seat all the way to the speed limit of the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan
(Post 3979951)
10 gears means a much closer gear ratio which lends better acceleration at low speeds and high speeds and keeps the engine in its power band which is very useful especially when switching between different types of tracks with varying types of corners.
You need to look at it from both angles not just the efficiency factor. Those gears that you claim are "just spinning for no fun and wasting power", actually allow you to gain speed more efficiently for example when you are trying to pass someone at highway speeds.
The Camaro ZL1 does have impressive levels of performance. Some would say close to supercar levels. "Mango man" is also greatly benefited from such applications.
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Perfect!
Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag
(Post 3979956)
6-speed gearbox in India is great and all we drive mostly in is 1-2-3. It is the highways that would warrant use of 4-5-6.
Now if the same 10-speed AT is put in a regular car, it'll keep going mad changing gears all the time hunting for the best gear.
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These gearboxes were never designed keeping india in mind.
And no, it wont go mad changing gears or hunting for the right gear. Automotive electronics has come to a state where the kind of computations done by the control units is far better than what a human mind can do. In this case, I would never be able to decide which is the best out of those ten gears that I should be in a given situation. The TCU does this effortlessly. It wont take the 1-2-3-4-5 pattern. Rather the car will start in 2 or even 3 off standstill. 1 will be only engaged in an incline or when the car is heavily loaded. There on, it will skip a few gears if it is unnecessary. Suppose you are going on a downhill with enough speed, and acceleration demand is nil, it will happily sit in 10. When you stomp the pedal, it will downshift to a very appropriate gear.
Brilliant is the word if we drive one of these cars in the right place :D
The VW 7 speed DSG on my TSI hits D7 around 50-60 kmph itself. So 6-7 gears are not totally irrelevant even in City driving. Nice when you are driving lazily, helps efficiency and ensures everything is very quiet. So 10 ratios may not be too far fetched at least in international markets.
Also, read an interesting report related to this. Apparently Ford is also ready to put a 10 speed transmission into production-and no, it is not a coincidence because Ford and GM collaborated on the development. So as per this article both the boxes are essentially the same with some tweaks in the implementations. Ford's version of the new 10-speed will first appear in the new F-150 Raptor pickup -- but it'll also be used in 2017 F-150s equipped with the revamped version of Ford's big-selling 3.5 liter EcoBoost V6.
Quote:
Ford Motor Company announced last month that it will invest $1.4 billion in new tooling and upgrades at its Livonia Transmission Plant in Michigan to build an all-new 10-speed automatic transmission.
Earlier this year, General Motors announced that it will spend $343 million on new tooling for its own transmission factory, in Romulus, Michigan -- also to build an all-new 10-speed automatic transmission. Is it coincidence that the old archrivals are gearing up (so to speak) to produce a new 10-speed transmission at the same time? Nope.
Yes, it's the same transmission (almost)
This might come as a surprise to those who think of Ford and GM as arch rivals, but the two companies developed their new 10-speed automatic transmissions together. Back in 2013, Ford and GM jointly announced that they would team up to develop two new automatic transmissions: a 9-speed for front-wheel-drive vehicles, and a 10-speed for rear-wheel drive applications. These are important components: All other things being equal, 9- and 10-speed transmissions should give better fuel economy and performance than the 6- and 8-speed transmissions they will replace. The new transmissions will help both Ford and GM comply with tightening fuel economy regulations in the U.S. and elsewhere.
That 10-speed automatic is the one that Ford and GM are both now gearing up to produce in their own plants. While each automaker will have their own version of the transmission, with unique software and other proprietary tweaks, the basic units are the same.
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Source:
Fool.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag
(Post 3979956)
I am happy manufacturers are advancing on research to better out the driving and ease plus to maximize efficiency but a 10-speed unit is too much and mostly usable only on supercars/hypercars. The regular mango man isn't much benefitted anyway.
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Camaro ZL1 is a sports car - which is why they experiment with such improved driving characteristics.
The features available on a sports car - particularly the ones related the Engine never make it to the regular cars (unless it is about Mileage improvement :D)
Our regular road use, including highway runs, especially in India tops out with 90 HP motor and a 5 speed gear box, with a claimed mileage figure of 25 kmpl!
10 gears is 3 too many. Honestly, a 6 speeder is enough for 99% of the driving conditions. Even VW's 7-speed DSG is more like a 6 speeder as the 1st is incredibly short.
If you want a super-tall top gear, sure, add a 7th, but anything over that is too much. GM & Ford are adding 10 ratios (with unbelievably tall higher gears) only for fuel efficiency ratings.
The difference between a 5-speeder & 6-speeder can be exploited (
related thread). Numbers over that, as extreme_torque rightly said, see the law of diminishing returns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO
(Post 3980329)
10 gears is 3 too many. Honestly, a 6 speeder is enough for 99% of the driving conditions. Even VW's 7-speed DSG is more like a 6 speeder as the 1st is incredibly short.
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How did you arrive at that conclusion? Even the 8th gear is shorter than the 6th gear on a manual 1.8 tsi Laura, and the 1st gear has a more aggressive shorter gear ratio than that of the Laura's. The 9th and 10th gears are the ones clearly meant for cruising down the highway and even they are well spaced out with the 10 gear having roughly the same gear ratio as top gear on an 8 speed gearbox. So the gear ratios make the transmission very relevant IMO. A short 1st gear, allows for more impressive off-the-line performance, so nothing wrong with that. From outright acceleration especially at high speeds, to being more likely to fall under the right gear in varying cornering situations, to more efficient acceleration at freeway speeds when passing a vehicle, such gearboxes make a LOT of sense you would find for more than 1% of driving conditions.
10 Gears! This is just too much. :uncontrol
For all practical purposes, 7 gears are more than enough in my opinion.
Even F1 cars have 7 gears.
With so many gears, the transmission will be always shifting up and down, and that wastes power, and saps performance, and also reduces the life of clutch/hydraulics.
Also, the higher the number of gears, the more the gearbox could weigh.
In my opinion, 9/10 speed gearboxes are more of a Bragging rights than actual performance.
Quoting Jeremy Clarkson on his review of the Jag's 8 speed unit (Just to prove that higher number of gears does not necessarily mean better performance):
Quote:
The XE is a bit lacklustre, really, until you get to the eight-speed automatic gearbox, which isn’t lacklustre at all. It’s dreadful. You might imagine that, no matter what the situation, an eight-speed box would always have the right ratio to ensure you had the punch to get up and go. I’m afraid not.
It hasn’t a clue what to do, so it just gives you random gears in no particular order until finally you mash the pedal to the metal, at which point it has a temper tantrum and throws a saucepan at your head.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhishek46
(Post 3980530)
10 Gears! This is just too much. :uncontrol
For all practical purposes, 7 gears are more than enough in my opinion.
Even F1 cars have 7 gears.
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If you read up properly you will see that even the 8th gear in the GM box, has a shorter ratio than most 6 speed manuals do at top gear making at least 9 of those 10 gears (assuming you only need one of the 9th or 10th gear to cruise down the freeway), highly relevant even in day to day situations. F1 cars are tuned to deliver their power based on the track they are performing on so the need for higher number of gear ratios is negated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by abhishek46
(Post 3980530)
With so many gears, the transmission will be always shifting up and down, and that wastes power, and saps performance, and also reduces the life of clutch/hydraulics.
Also, the higher the number of gears, the more the gearbox could weigh.
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You don't think the engineers and programmers thought of that? Have you driven a proper 8 speed box? They never fumble about and in most cases are far better than the 7 speed DSG trannys you see on VWs. Secondly, if you read they have managed to keep the gearbox the same size as the 8 speed might weigh a bit more but the wider range of gear ratios overcomes the weight in terms of both performance and efficiency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by abhishek46
(Post 3980530)
Quoting Jeremy Clarkson on his review of the Jag's 8 speed unit (Just to prove that higher number of gears does not necessarily mean better performance):
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Funny because motor trend magazine had to say that the ZF 8 speed in the Jag was far better tuned than the same gearbox in the 3 series. Anyway these are not just plug and play units. They need to be tuned properly in order to function optimally and if any of the reviews on the new Camaro are anything to go by, they have nailed it with this one.
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