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Old 24th October 2016, 11:01   #31
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Default Re: Germany votes to ban the internal combustion engine by 2030

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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
Arguably the problem is NOT just emissions (co2, nox, spm etc) but the private mass-ownership automobile itself.


Why can we not, then, have cars and powerful-capable-motorbikes for sport, kinesthetics and as engineering-artworks and 'enthusiasm' rather than for, and instead-of, commuting and routine spatial traversal? In which case, ice or no ice matters not at all.
Spot-on. Regular commuting and travel/driving for pleasure should be two different things. So clean/green transportation (public/shared/private) could be the main stay for commuting and ICE could be optionally available, at a premium/tax or whatever? That way all forms of prime-movers, could continue to co-exist. However, there are multiple lobbies with vested interests who are hand-in-glove with most governments - so difficult to predict how this ban on ICE would unfold.
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Old 25th October 2016, 18:01   #32
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Default Re: Germany votes to ban the internal combustion engine by 2030

Some awesome news for the lungs of Düsseldorfers in particular and all North Rhine-Westphalians in general!

Quote:
A judge has told a key northern German regional government to ban diesel cars to meet its NOx emissions limits after legal action from a group of activist lawyers.

North Rhine-Westphalia, which has Düsseldorf as its capital, has been given a year to enact a plan to bring its airborne NOx levels down to the legal limits after being sued by Environmental Action Germany (DUH), a part of the Brussels-based NGO Transport Environment.
http://www.motoring.com.au/dusseldor...l-cars-104158/

Bravo, DUH, Bravo!!!

Quote:
DUH is pursuing 14 other similar legal cases across Germany, including in Stuttgart, whose air frequently ranks as the most polluted in Europe and is home to Mercedes-Benz, Porsche and Borgward.

Last edited by RSR : 25th October 2016 at 18:04.
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Old 12th July 2018, 13:57   #33
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Default Re: Germany votes to ban the internal combustion engine by 2030

Stuttgart to start ban of older diesels in 2019

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Stuttgart will bar only the most polluting diesel vehicles from its streets next year and will seek to avoid a widening of the ban by taking measures to improve air quality, a state ministry said. Stuttgart, the heartland of Germany's automotive industry, plans to start banning diesel vehicles meeting the Euro 4 or older emissions standards starting in January 2019, the state ministry of Baden-Wuerttemberg said on Wednesday.

"We want to avoid bans on Euro 5 diesels with a comprehensive package of clean air measures," said Andreas Schwarz, leader of the Greens' parliamentary group in the Baden-Wuerttemberg regional assembly. But he also said the city's clean-air measures, such as an expansion of public transportation and electric mobility, would need to have a sufficient effect on pollution levels.

There has been a global backlash against diesel cars since Volkswagen Group admitted in 2015 to cheating exhaust tests meant to limit emissions of particulate matter and nitrogen oxide (NOx).
Dozens of German cities including Hamburg, Munich and Stuttgart exceed European Union limits on NOx, which is known to cause respiratory diseases.
If by mid-2019 it does not look like the measures Stuttgart has taken to improve air quality will bring its NOx levels within the legal limits, the ban could be widened to Euro 5 diesels in January 2020, the Baden-Wuerttemberg ministry said.

Germany's top administrative court ruled in February in favor of allowing major cities to ban heavily polluting diesel cars.
Soon after, Hamburg became the first German city to ban diesel cars that do not meet the latest Euro 6 standards from some busy streets, seeking to raise pressure on carmakers to undertake costly retrofits.
A regional court in Stuttgart had demanded last month the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg, home to carmakers Mercedes-Benz and VW unit Porsche, draw up a firm plan for when it will ban Euro 5 diesels.

Bans on diesel vehicles from city centers are also planned in Paris, Madrid, Mexico City and Athens by 2025, while the mayor of Copenhagen wants to bar new diesel cars from entering the city center as soon as next year.
Source

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Old 12th July 2018, 14:20   #34
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Default Re: Germany votes to ban the internal combustion engine by 2030

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
I want to know the thoughts of bhpians over this . Logically , yes this is the way to go as our planet needs stringent laws like this to sustain humanity but when emotions comes into the play , what's your thoughts on that?
I am sure someone said the same when they were phasing out the buttoned phones and moving into touchscreens. If anyone tells you that an electric car such as a Model S is emotional less then either he has never driven one or he is lying. Having driven a Model S it would be a very difficult call for me if asked to choose between say a Model S P100d or BMW M5. While M5 has the noise and the drama, Model S is incredibly fast, both starting still or on the move. The competition is between an IC car with its thousands of moving parts any of which could go wrong if not careful or an electric motor which is perhaps the most reliable machine on the planet after the sun. There is no arguing the performance of a Model S after you have driven one. It almost moves in a vaccuum and that performance without noise also stirs emotion like nothing else. We will learn to live with it in the end and I cannot wait for the day.
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Old 12th July 2018, 17:49   #35
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Default Re: Germany votes to ban the internal combustion engine by 2030

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
If anyone tells you that an electric car such as a Model S is emotional less then either he has never driven one or he is lying. Having driven a Model S it would be a very difficult call for me if asked to choose between say a Model S P100d or BMW M5.
.
It is for me, I have driven and been driven in the Model S and a few other electric cars. Especially the model S leaves me completely underwhelmed. Yes, it is fast, but not in the way I like to see and experience it.

It is just a personal preference, but I don't care too much for the styling either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
It almost moves in a vaccuum and that performance without noise also stirs emotion like nothing else. .
If I want to drive in a vacuum I could put my pilots noise cancelation headset on and get in my Supercharged V8 Jaguar. But I want to hear those engine noises though. I also want to feel the car shift, or alternatively, marvel at the technology that allows it to really shift through gears, without me hardly noticing. An e-motor is just mind boggling boring and simple. It just delivers a ridiculous amount of torgue and keeps going. Nothing special really. It might be fast, but its completely devoid of any fun factor.

It does stir emotions but not the right ones. To me, it is just a bland transportation pod with a large ipad as a dashboard. Not particularly well made or not particularly high quality finish and material. Certainly compared to for instance your average BMW 5 series. And you might have picked up from some other threads I am not a big BMW fan either. But I would pick even a Serie 3 over a S anytime without a second thought.

I do agree with you that it is very likely the way things are going. So better get yourself a proper car, with a real IC engine, some gears, some noise, an exhaust rather then an extension cord, whilst you can!

Last edited by Jeroen : 12th July 2018 at 17:52.
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Old 12th July 2018, 20:34   #36
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Default Re: Germany votes to ban the internal combustion engine by 2030

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I am sure someone said the same when they were phasing out the buttoned phones and moving into touchscreens. If anyone tells you that an electric car such as a Model S is emotional less then either he has never driven one or he is lying. Having driven a Model S it would be a very difficult call for me if asked to choose between say a Model S P100d or BMW M5. While M5 has the noise and the drama, Model S is incredibly fast, both starting still or on the move. The competition is between an IC car with its thousands of moving parts any of which could go wrong if not careful or an electric motor which is perhaps the most reliable machine on the planet after the sun. There is no arguing the performance of a Model S after you have driven one. It almost moves in a vaccuum and that performance without noise also stirs emotion like nothing else. We will learn to live with it in the end and I cannot wait for the day.
Let me put it in a simple way. Electric car is like a meal which you swallow in one go and you’re left wanting for more but you can’t have. IC Engined car is like the meal which you savour, take your own sweet time to relish and are left fully satisfied.

All these talks of insane torque, I’ll tell you 2 things. One, it’s exciting only for the initial acceleration. And two (and the main point), not everyone can afford to buy a Tesla. Are you saying that say an electric Honda City will be as exciting as a regular petrol guzzling one? Don’t for one second think that all electric cars will be like the Model S.

Talk when the power figures are minuscule and the so called acceleration has been made linear for the sake of comfort.

As for the reliability, let’s see how convenient and affordable maintenance is when you have to replace the extremely expensive battery pack in 5 years.

A car should have drama. I should connect with the car. Otherwise I’m just a regular joe who uses the car to transport from point A to B or to show off my new found social status.

Take a look at the Model 3’s interiors. That’s the way the car’s future is. A glorified electric home appliance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
So better get yourself a proper car, with a real IC engine, some gears, some noise, an exhaust rather then an extension cord, whilst you can!
Hahaha, this had me in splits.

Last edited by The Brutailer : 12th July 2018 at 20:42.
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Old 12th July 2018, 21:46   #37
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Default Re: Germany votes to ban the internal combustion engine by 2030

Model 3 can also do this




If one is driving an automatic, then apart from the sound you don't miss much.

In a electric car you can change how much punch you get from the motor by changing the motor timing in ° (degree), whether you want smooth jerk free acceleration or whether one wants their head back against the head rest.
You could even limit the power/speed/acceleration vs pedal travel to whatever you desire, with just software settings and without any mechanical part. You could also mimic the sudden surge of power like when a turbo kick in IC power car, if the ESC is programmed that way.

Who says you can't have fun in electric car, that's what they said in the RC world, whether on smooth indoor track to muddy off road tracks or rock climbing to boat racing, to air vehicles, electric have totally dominated.

Also in a electric vehicle, you don't need monster size engine bay like in a sports car to get that much power.

Last edited by aim120 : 12th July 2018 at 21:48.
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Old 13th July 2018, 00:12   #38
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Default Re: Germany votes to ban the internal combustion engine by 2030

isn't this thread about Germany banning IC engines and some German cities banning them already? Let us stick to the topic.

I am not supporting any automobile manufacturer nor against nature. But, I do not support stupidity and false/falsified scientific claims.

Second, the so called DUH in Germany, is known to favour manufacturers supporting its cause i.e. Toyota (as an example) contributes to DUH in 5 digit numbers on an yearly basis. The cars DUH tested to be bad were all German brands. They even went to the extent of driving a 320D and calling that the car has a cheat software. The actual data revealed that they were driving the car at 50 Kmph @ over 3000 RPM!!! They call this a regular user profile. I drive a 320 D and at 50 Kmph my rpm is hardly over 1800 rpm. Even the German government body for vehicle certification rejected this claim of DUH and courts thrashed their plea to ban BMW.

The so called NOx pollution has been proven to be a scientifically wrong assumption, by Fraunhaufer and Max planck institutes. The air quality measuring stations here were found to be placed at scientifically wrong locations. Further, the fact that some 10 largest container ships and oil tankers in the world contribute more pollution than half of the world's cars in total is an often ignored fact.

Stuttgart which wanted to ban all cars below Euro 5, has finally decided to stop allowing cars below Euro 4 only! Banning Euro 5 cars will lead to an huge economic collapse in Germany. Cars of EU-5 norms are as old as 5 years. Scrapping them means, they are going to end in Africa. Don't these pollute the air there if they are being used there? Wouldn't that contribute to the Earth's pollution levels?

Such stupid solutions are simply a publicity/fear mongering and stunts to garner public opinion and don't have any scientific value whatsoever. Moreover, Lithium which is now the base for battery cars, is a rare earth mineral available only in limited countries and China, contains the largest reserves. Pushing battery cars is going to help one and only nation.

I rest my case! IC engines are dinosaurs and we should move away from fossil fuels but not at the cost of something else. Electric cars imho are not the future, if so they should have taken over the world by now.

Last edited by AlphaKilo : 13th July 2018 at 00:15.
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Old 13th July 2018, 13:21   #39
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Default Re: Germany votes to ban the internal combustion engine by 2030

Can anybody refer me to any research that has been done in terms of the total carbon foot print from cradle to grave of an IC automobile and an equivalent electric automobile? Or if someone can help me provide a number - that is EVs have X number of times less carbon footprint than IC vehicles.

I admit, I am a total novice here, and sometimes I think in strange ways, but this all out investment and promotion from all quarters from auto suppliers, manufacturers, governments, consultancies etc for EVs..just makes me feel suspicious of the actual benefits of EVs.
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Old 13th July 2018, 21:46   #40
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Default Re: Germany votes to ban the internal combustion engine by 2030

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Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
Can anybody refer me to any research that has been done in terms of the total carbon foot print from cradle to grave of an IC automobile and an equivalent electric automobile? Or if someone can help me provide a number - that is EVs have X number of times less carbon footprint than IC vehicles...

There you go!


https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/en/jec/activities/wtw

Some highlights:


Quote:
"A shift to renewable/low carbon sources is expensive: GHG emission reductions always entail costs but high cost does not always result in large GHG reductions
No single fuel pathway offers a short term route to high volumes of “low carbon” fuel"
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