[Sankar]

The root cause of Diesel emission problems is the skewed ratio of low displacement, high output and good fuel economy. German Diesels are fun to drive but it looks like this is how they do it.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Common sense tells me that today's technology cannot meet the standards of emmision set for diesel engines within a cost that the market will bear. Hence all this cheating. Either the Govt makes the standards more relaxed or the OEMs stop producing diesels. From what little I have seen cheating by companies at times is motivated by a desire to survive. This is what seems to be happening here. I am no friend of VAG or their little brother Audi. Just trying to point out that this is more nuanced than just a few dishonest executives.

Sir, you have summed the situation up very nicely and I agree with most of your premise. My point is, if manufacturers feel market can't bear the true cost of Euro6 diesels.... Well, market doesn't really know the true cost of Euro6. Because just about every manufacturer has been caught cheating here. If only we had actually compliant cars from different manufacturers competing with each other would we know of actually how much performance and drivability are hit and how much is the actual cost difference. It is only then that market forces can take over and lead to a natural and genuine correction in sales numbers.

[sridhu]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

When so many OEMs resort to cheat devices means they cannot build an engine that can meet the norms normally and do so within a cost effective price of production. It raises the question if the pollution control standards are too high to be within reasonable reach of industry at a reasonable price. When almost everyone is breaking a law it raises the question if the law is appropriate. A thought.

By that logic, all roads in Bangalore should allow traffic in all directions in any lane. And red lights should be removed.!

This is a competitive play where the others meeting the norm incur costs that VAG does not. That affects both price & profitability

[vipul_singh]

Originally Posted by swissknife

How can a device be a defeat device and be legal? If it's legal, how can it be termed as cheating? Also, why would it be expected that Audi removes devices that are legal?

One possible explanation could be that as per EU regulations, vehicles are allowed to pollute beyond limits 'in order to protect the engine'. Regulators have been approving vehicles which exploit this loophole. These are the so called 'legal' defeat devices. The web is full of such references:

https://europe.autonews.com/article/...defeat-devices

[sandeepmohan]

I won't say much cause I do not know much.

What I will say and I may have said this before, if VW can think of putting a human into a closed chamber that is being pumped in with exhaust fumes from a modern day car, to prove that their cars are clean, the thought of manipulating the system by using cheat devices once again, does not surprise me one bit.

As already stated by V Narayan, if pollution control standards are pushing manufacturers to the very edge, the only way out is to retire everything fossil fuel. Easier said than done though.

[anjan_c2007]

The four rings comprising the Audi AG logo, so sacrosanct once upon a time and since 1932, signifying the union of four brands Audiwerke, Horch, Wanderer and DKW to form Auto Union and the 1969 NSU Motorenwerke merger with Auto Union has a different meaning in the present times. Do those four rings now signify their licence to use four different defeat or cheat devices to artificially simulate lower emissions ?

Most of us had read of "Alibaba and the 40 thieves" during our school days. A new automobile book entitled "Audi and its 4 thieves" will be a good read and apt to reveal more of the mystery !

[IshaanIan]

There is a show on Netflix called Dirty Money and the first episode, titled NOx, goes over the entire VW dieselgate scandal. The main issue here is not that the German manufacturers are slightly cheating, but that they are cheating way too much. These defeat devices recognize test parameters and ensure that the car emits pollutants within the regulatory standards. However, under normal smooth driving (on a track so this has nothing to do with stop and go traffic), it was found that the cars from VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes, emitted NOx levels that were between 400 to 600 percent higher moreover, the reason why they continue to do this is due to a clause in the German governance that allows for a manufacturer to make such modifications in order to "preserve the life of the engine". This is why these defeat devices continue to be installed in Diesel cars and this is why we must all try not to buy diesels because they are simply no where near as clean as we think they might be. They have gotten refined over the years but they still emit deadly toxins in much higher quantities than we think. Just imagine NOx levels that are 4 to 6X higher than during "test conditions".

[VaidhiR]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

When so many OEMs resort to cheat devices means they cannot build an engine that can meet the norms normally and do so within a cost effective price of production. It raises the question if the pollution control standards are too high to be within reasonable reach of industry at a reasonable price. When almost everyone is breaking a law it raises the question if the law is appropriate. A thought.

This was discussed during the entire VW dieselgate scandal. The OEMs unanimously agreed that that the time to develop the "next" generation of low polluting engines was too less and the usage period of such developed engines were too less to look at ROI. Take an example of the official Euro emission norms.

The Euro 1 norm was approved in July 1992 and was implemented first in January 1993. Within 3 years, the Euro 2 came into effect with reduced emission norms for exhaust.

Euro 5 had to be split into 5a (which was approved in Sep 2009) but only came into effect in January 2011. But by September 2011, Euro 5b was officiated with first registration in January 2013 with reduced particulate matter.

And in the development of Euro6 engines, it was deemed unworthy to even contemplate Euro 6 and 6a. The regulations went directly from 5b to 6b with reduced HC+NOx contents. And then Euro-6c wasnt even officially approved but came into effect in September 2018. And to bring in Euro 6d, a 6dTemp had to be proposed.

The focus right now is not on the combustion. Because the OEMs feel that maximum development has happened in the pre combustion areas (heated pre ignition etc) and combustion (twin spark etc). The focus right now is on the after exhaust treatment where chemicals (Read AdBlue) are sprayed at various strategic points in the exhaust pipe to minimise the effect of harmful gases.

So yes sir. To answer your question, the government and its short sighted policies played a role in making the OEMs go around the rules. Any policy that involves a decision about the automotive regulation, must involve the high ranking officials from the company. The companies are not going to revolt against the government.

They are "for profit" organizations, and their main intention will be to make/save money wherever possible. But under a fair timeline that considers the ROI with emphasis on the environment is the way forward.

[GTO]

Shame on Audi . From NYTimes:

Wrong. Nearly four years after Volkswagen confessed to systematically evading pollution rules for a decade, facets of the scandal are still coming to light. Newly uncovered documents viewed by The New York Times show that Volkswagen’s Audi luxury-car unit was more deeply involved in developing the emissions cheating scheme than previously known, and continued to sell vehicles with illegal software even after the scandal became public.

The documents, first reported earlier this month by German broadcaster Bayerische Rundfunk and the Handelsblatt newspaper, show that Audi managers and engineers in the Bavarian city of Ingolstadt were just as willing as their counterparts at Volkswagen in Wolfsburg to cheat in pursuit of the company’s goal of becoming the largest carmaker in the world — perhaps even more so.

“We won’t make it without a few dirty tricks,” an employee in Audi’s diesel motor development department wrote in an email to colleagues in January 2008, summarizing road tests that confirmed diesel models couldn’t meet emissions standards. Audi managers and engineers bluntly discussed what was in effect a criminal conspiracy, using terms like “defeat device” or “cycle beating” that clearly connote illegal attempts to defeat the testing procedures used by regulators.

[srishiva]

The tests are not under full load. If these cant be met by use of defeat devices, how much of pollution is really happening ?

If no one can match the norms, they should somehow stop production and then let the boards decide how to go about it.

They have been giving false impressions which might be leading the boards to tighten the norms more regularly

With all these aspects and electric vehicles not being ready safety wise (altleast to me), its time for everyone to be honest about emissions and motor vehicles.