[ChiragM]

According to a media report, the success of the Model 3 has affected BMW the most. As a percentage of the brand's total sales, BMW has taken the biggest hit among other car companies in the US.



The report states that more Model 3 cars are sold in the US than the Mercedes-Benz C-Class and the BMW 3 Series combined. However, Mercedes has not been affected as badly as BMW because its cars are known for their comfort and class, while BMW cars are known for their performance. The Model 3 has been tested against 3 Series variants, including the M3.

Many customers of economy cars like the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and the Mazda 3 have traded their cars for a Tesla Model 3. The report suggests that Tesla took the largest number of customers from Toyota, but the Japanese carmaker is not as badly affected as BMW since it has a larger market share in the country. Toyota's market share in the US is said to be 7 times greater than that of BMW.

Link to Team-BHP News

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[tejas2323]

Its no surprise because Model 3 is such a good product.
As much fun as BMW without hefty fuel bills, what does an enthusiast want more from a car!
Not just for enthusiast but also for a normal sedate driver it is just about perfect car.
Waiting eagerly for its India launch.

[raystriker]

I don't see this affecting BMW in the long run. Porsche will probably dethrone Tesla soon at the high end once the Taycan goes on sale. BMW is definitely working on EVs right now (like many other manufacturers). Tesla's success is only due to being the first in the market. The real test will be to see how they hold on when the competition arrives. They have a long way to go with regards to the build quality of their products, something conventional automakers have pretty much figured out.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Not very surprised.

Got to take a short ride in the Model S and it was totally an underwhelming experience when it comes to interiors. Tesla has a LOT to learn about providing a luxurious experience for its occupants. Got to follow it up with the Lexus ES on the next day, and it was a much better interior! Mercedes would have been another level compared to the Tesla, for sure.

However, when it comes to performance - the experience was totally different! Even wife had a grin on her face, even though the car was only accelerating just about enough to keep pace with traffic on the middle-east highways. Though I keep hearing that Tesla cannot provide the driver involvement of traditional cars - I can totally see them beating BMW and such driver's cars in countries like the US and the middle east where handling falls secondary in priority to acceleration.

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by raystriker

I don't see this affecting BMW in the long run. Porsche will probably dethrone Tesla soon at the high end once the Taycan goes on sale. BMW is definitely working on EVs right now (like many other manufacturers). Tesla's success is only due to being the first in the market.

Curious to see if you are looking at any data to backup your line of thought. The starting price of Taycan is several folds the cost of a Model 3. https://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/taycan I see conservative 40 year olds upgrade from Prius to a Model3, I see aggressive executives move from a M3 and a M5 to a Model3 for performance. At $40k it is a whole lot of a car when you consider the cost of running the car for 5 years. How will any of these buyers turn to a Taycan. Most competition in 2020 is in the $70k to $80k price range. While the Model Y and the cybertruck would be priced way too aggressively to kill the sales of these new launches. The Gigafactories will benefit from economies of scale and enable Tesla to be very profitable. They can deploy these profits very aggressively. And then they have a loyal fanbase of Tesla owners, people like me who help make a case for Tesla. Mind you, Tesla is not spending a dime on traditional advertising. In my opinion, a lot of negative press/media coverage is as a result of that. To make money/clicks, they end up covering the news of a Tesla fire or an accident.

Telsa has several other factors working in its favor.
1. It is all in. No other product sales to worry about
2. Charging network 15,000 super chargers deployed, most powered by its solar panels
3. No dealers to worry about, so they react on a dime throwing freebies like months of free charging to boost sales.

For traditional auto makers like Jaguar, BMW, and Porsche one sale of an EV is one less of their ICE car that is making a fat profit (and is enabling them to pay their current bills). It is hard for them to raise billions more to build new Gigafactories the way Elon does, and write off the current investments.

The way I see it only Elon can defeat Elon - with questionable accounting and diversions with his more nerdy projects like a colony on Mars, etc.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Not very surprised. Got to take a short ride in the Model S and it was totally an underwhelming experience when it comes to interiors.

I can see how a short ride experience would make you feel. But to make up your mind about buying - you will need to factor in the 5 year costs associated with owning the car, and the experience of driving Model S in Ludicrous mode.

[raystriker]

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

Curious to see if you are looking at any data to backup your line of thought. The starting price of Taycan is several folds the cost of a Model 3. I see conservative 40 year olds upgrade from Prius to a Model3, I see aggressive executives move from a M3 and a M5 to a Model3 for performance. Telsa has several factors working in its favor. At $40k it is a whole lot of a car when you consider the cost of running the car for 5 years. How will any of these buyers turn to a Taycan. Most competition in 2020 is in the $70k to $80k price range. While the Model Y and the cybertruck would be priced way too aggressively to kill the sales of these new launches.

1. It is all in. No other product sales to worry about
2. Charging network 15,000 super chargers deployed, most powered by its solar panels
3. No dealers to worry about, so they react on a dime throwing freebies like months of free charging to boost sales.

For traditional auto makers like Jaguar, BMW, and Porsche one sale of an EV is one less of their ICE car that is making a fat profit, and is helping them pay their bills. It is hard for them to raise billions more to build Gigafactories the way Elon does.

The way I see it only Elon can defeat Elon - with questionable accounting and diversions with his more nerdy projects like a colony on Mars, etc.

I think it would do you good to read what I wrote carefully. I said that the Taycan will overtake Teslas at the high end- and from that, I implied the Model S/X.

What you have said still doesn't counter my point that soon BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, Toyota etc will ALL have EVs in the market. I am 100% sure all of them make better quality vehicles than Tesla. So unless Tesla can offer something crazy like twice or thrice in range, eventually people will look away from Tesla once they notice that other cars offer usable range albeit with much better quality etc.

Tesla has no dealers, which might seem like and advantage but there are plenty of horror stories about people waiting for a while to get spares/body work when they have a fender bender or other issues.

Let's not forget the huge car loan and leasing culture in the US. Many people who buy these cars can't out-right afford it. Let's wait for 2-3 years to see how many people hold on to their Model 3s.

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

I can see how a short ride experience would make you feel. But to make up your mind about buying - you will need to factor in the 5 year costs associated with owning the car, and the experience of driving Model S in Ludicrous mode.

LOL. Typical Tesla fan response. Interiors are important. Especially for a $120k+ car. Torque is good, but that is no excuse for underwhelming interiors. Speed and fuel savings have nothing to do with interior quality. I hope you see the fault with your argument.
Regardless. I doubt you can or should use the speed of Ludicrous mode in everyday driving That would be very irresponsible. Unless, you like getting in trouble with the police.

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by raystriker

I think it would do you good to read what I wrote carefully. I said that the Taycan will overtake Teslas at the high end- and from that, I implied the Model S/X.

Current Model S and X are several years old, and the plaid mode in Model S will probably be launched in time with Taycan's availability. That said, Taycan is still a lot more expensive compared to the S and the X.

Originally Posted by raystriker

What you have said still doesn't counter my point that soon BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, Toyota etc will ALL have EVs in the market.
Tesla has no dealers, which might seem like and advantage but there are plenty of horror stories about people waiting for a while to get spares/body work when they have a fender bender or other issues.

Let's not forget the huge car loan and leasing culture in the US. Many people who buy these cars can't out-right afford it. Let's wait for 2-3 years to see how many people hold on to their Model 3s.

What does BMW have to show interns of EV quality? The i3, the Audi eTron? I have friends with BMW and Audi EVs, and they are still reeling with fundamental issues relating to charging and range. Like finding a charger, charge time and drop in range.

My Tesla is currently in a body shop for a no fault accident in a parking lot. Rear quarter panel, rear bumper damaged. The wait time is no different than getting my Toyota repaired. I have had other fender benders as well. It is well known that 2 years back when the Model 3 was getting launched, the wait times to get parts were much longer. 2019 has been way better. Several body shops are Tesla trained/authorized now. My estimated wait time was 2 weeks for parts to arrive, and 2 weeks for bodywork, and painting. In reality, most parts arrived from Tesla in 3 days.

Sure, there is a car loan and leasing culture. You can lease or take a loan for a Tesla just as you would for any other car. I know people with Teslas from 6 years, and I know many of them who bought a Model 3 as their second car. I do not know what sources you are using, but if it is the traditional print media, I can understand why you would think that way.

I take the simplicity of a Tesla interior over the redundant multitude of buttons on a german car any day. But, that should be a matter of preference, and not a deal breaker to buy a car. We can agree to disagree there.

[raystriker]

All I'm saying is, Tesla won't affect BMW and other manufacturers for long. The market will soon be flooded with their EV products.

Tesla's build quality and interior quality is inferior and feature devoid to other manufacturers for the price one is paying. You can expect EVs from other companies to usurp Tesla in that regard.

Even if they don't have Tesla's range, as long as the range of other manufacturer's cars are usable, customers will be willing to make the compromise (exchanging a bit of range for a more luscious interior and overall quality). Because frankly, the interior is how you interface with your car.

The Porsche Taycan 4S and Tesla Model S P100D are priced similarly. You bet I'm choosing the former.
---


Also, buttons are good. Once failed, you'll have to replace the whole screen. And it will look so outdated in 10 years.
Yes, we can agree to disagree.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by raystriker

I don't see this affecting BMW in the long run.

Agree with you on the long run. But right now & in the near future, all the German luxury car makers are hit by Tesla in the USA (2nd largest car market). The Model 3 outsells the C-Class & 3-Series, and at a higher average selling price!

BMW is definitely working on EVs right now (like many other manufacturers).

Actually, BMW is lagging behind all the others in EV development - related thread (BMW is way behind the others in Electric Vehicles).

Back to the thread topic, the fact is that BMW is more badly hit by Tesla than the other car makers.

They have a long way to go with regards to the build quality of their products, something conventional automakers have pretty much figured out.

Agreed. In terms of production quality & consistency, build, after-sales etc. Tesla is way behind. Once the big guys figure out how to build awesome EVs, Tesla is in danger.

[raystriker]

There is also a case to be made that BMW is making absolutely horrible cars right now. The designs of some of their new models, only a mother could love. In the land of Model 3's efficiency and straight-line performance, Mercedes C-classes' interior (and by extension C63 V8 powah+soundtrack) and the Alfa Romeo Giulia's beauty and driving dynamics, the BMW has lost its crown. The M3 is no longer the ultimate driver's car.

Let's not forget that the era of sedans and hatchbacks is over. It's all about crossovers and SUVs now.

[myavu]

I have a different perspective.

My 3 cousins in the US (Texas, Florida & NY) are driving Model S, Model 3 Standard Range Plus and Model 3 Performance respectively. Their other Cars are Lexus, BMW, Honda and Toyota which they are driving bare minimum these days.

The majority of Tesla customers are not buying it against current Merc, BMW or Audi (barring enthusiasts or bloggers/vloggers).

Tesla cars are a new experience from what they had earlier in the market like Bolt, Leaf, etc. More power, more range, striking designs, nationwide charging network, cheap to maintain, etc are a huge advantage for Tesla cars.

I agree that 3 German giants along with other major manufacturers are all in the cusp to release 100s of BEVs sooner but I still believe with close to 16 years of R&D and with a leader like Elon Musk, Tesla is far ahead with their technology and it's pioneering. Buyout of Maxwell was a masterstroke by them and how the next generation Tesla cars performing will be a techno-enthusiasts' delight for sure.

There was a quality issue earlier. The 2019 Model 3 Performance is 10 times better than earlier 2017 Model S. The fit and finish is almost par now. But what Tesla offer is a simple, minimalist experience and slowly the buyers are accepting it.

With Berlin's fourth Gigafactory Tesla is taking the game to the next level and time will only tell who will be the ultimate BEV king which comprise of Power/Range/Behavior and Interior/Sophistication/Utility. But for that matter Tesla is far ahead of others and bridging the gap is not that easy since Tesla is not standing still either.

Now my opinion on Porsche Taycan. Taycan is the best attempt by any other manufacturer other than Tesla. Beautiful design, Porsche DNA, fast and good range. But the bench-marking was against a modded 2012 born Model S. In few months we are going to see Roadster 2.0 from Tesla with some ground shattering specs and that will be the building block for their future cars.

For mass-market there will be many manufacturers in BEV space and they will easily rule that space too. But at a higher spectrum, it will not be an easy job to dethrone Tesla. Just my humble opinion.

[HKap]

Originally Posted by GTO

In terms of production quality & consistency, build, after-sales etc. Tesla is way behind. Once the big guys figure out how to build awesome EVs, Tesla is in danger.

The build quality seems to have improved a lot over the last two years. The model 3 doesn't seem to be a project car anymore. Also, Tesla's EV tech is so far ahead of competition that it makes no sense to buy any other EV at this point and I don't see any of the major manufacturers catching up anytime soon. The efficiency, charging times, power to battery size ratio and the awesome autopilot tech is way ahead of everyone else. With the V3 charging stations being rolled out across their massive charging network, they've effectively taken the "charging is a pain" argument out of the equation.

[GutsyGibbon]

Here are the features deployed by Tesla in a software update rolled out recently
https://www.tesla.com/support/softwa...-10-0#software

This would apply for Teslas that are several years old. Certainly for Model 3 that is coming up to be 2 years after the first deliveries. These features when compared to what you have on a 2 year old European luxury car are certainly way too awesome. (forget the EV part)

I always thought, I would never play games in a car. These days, when I go to pick up my kids from basketball or volleyball, they are invariably late by 10 to 15 minutes and I am looking forward to the arcade games in my Tesla. Racing dune buggies on the big screen is way more fun than I ever thought. I could sit and read news or watch Netflix in my Tesla, but I choose to play games.

Also, the ability to save from all the cameras to a USB drive is the key reason I was able to prove that I was not at fault in a recent accident. Without the video proof, I would have ended up paying a deductible for 50% fault. Again, this feature was unknown when I bought the car.

None of these features were advertised or even known when the car was launched. Many features were suggested by users and Elon acknowledged and had his team include these features.

So I see no evidence of European competitors catching up with new EVs and Tesla sitting there without stretching their lead. If anything the lead is getting bigger by the day.

[Pontiac]

There is an overall shift in people wanting to buy EVs over conventional cars which is impacting this analysis. This is not related to Tesla being superior to other manufacturers or anything. It is a mass of people shifting towards EV for their commute and left with 3 options. Tesla, Leaf & Bolt. Remember Leaf still is the bestselling EV around the world and is a close second in the US.

If Tesla was so great and godly, why would people buy a Leaf? especially when a well spec'd Leaf is in the territory of a well spec'd Model3. And how is Nissan managing to increase the sales year over year?

And is there a ludicrous mode or auto-pilot (Tesla’s term for adaptive cruise control) in Leaf that people are behind?

[download2live]

Originally Posted by GTO

Once the big guys figure out how to build awesome EVs, Tesla is in danger.

I think big guys have a lot of baggage of past. Whatever they do will be colored with the thinking that new stuff should not cannbalise existing lineup. In short nothing should upset the apple cart.

The comparison might not be right but Canon and Nikon story is illuminating. They were last to introduce mirrorless and their launches were half baked just to make sure existing lineup of DSLR is not effected. And while they were busy doing that Sony streamrolled them with full frame mirrorless offering. And then there was Tsunami of Google Pixel and IPhone.

Remember we are talking about the the big car makers who were loathing to introduce Bluetooth in cars when it was everywhere. And when they did they started with high end version first to milk customers.

Telsa meanwhile is perfecting the art of over the air updates!!!

Then there is global warming reality which has started to bite people.

The only thing which can stop Tesla is Eon Musk working himself to death or losing his sanity.