[Miyata]

There is this slightly older post from nytimes - Technology Problems Top a List of Car Complaints

What appears to be anecdotally clear is that the overall reliability/dependability on cars has improved over time. Meaning, I can, in general, trust the newer cars better in taking me from point A to point B.

People might have also become lot more impatient and cry foul on any single glitch they come across. Just as an example, my camry has had issues with the bluetooth connectivity over almost an year now. It will connect at times and not at others. It is a hassle but nothing really critical enough to bother me!

Some excerpts from NYTimes article -

Complaints about technology have gone from being fifth most troublesome in the 2014 study, to third last year, to now being first.

owners of cars with blind-spot monitoring had been getting false readings in which the system said it was safe to change lanes when it was not, and the other way around.

Overall dependability is determined by the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles. The lower the score, the higher the quality. The overall industry average for dependability was 152 problems per 100 vehicles, compared with 147 problems in last year’s study.

“Technology keeps moving and adding more capability, which keeps the manufacturers running to integrate these new things to be competitive,” he said. “But then they are redoing the interface so that all those new things can be added, versus having an interface that’s fairly stable for a few years in a row.”

All said and done, there is certainly truth to the thought that more components one has in a car (or any commodity) there is higher probability of getting more errors/glitches in its lifespan. [Probabilities adding up for various events]

It seems to also emerge that although the number of issues per 100 vehicles have increased, the nature of the those issues might not be classified as "critical" as far as keeping the reliable mobility of the car is concerned.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Do you think that an average car owner knows all the technical stuff to do it on their own?. .

No, but they probably did not know how to set up a carburator either. An old or a modern car, most people have no clue about the technical stuff, which is fine.

What is puzzling me is why, apparently, there is such a problem with maintaining some modern cars in India.

In a country that has resources in abundance, people are very eager to learn and develop themselves. I work in the Telecom industry and we rely heavily and place a lot of our very high tech work (From R&D to daily running of our customers telecom networks) on our Indian colleagues.

India has a tremendous appetite for learning new stuff, for moving itself ahead. So why is this not the case for car mechanics apparently?

We see many members reporting just not being able to get a problem diagnosed properly. Why is that? Why is the Indian automative sector not able to train its mechanics properly?

During my years in India, I have never encountered any problems with training our staff. Everybody loved it and the more training, the more complex the better.

New technology makes it into our daily world/routines all the time. India has proven itself very capable on many fronts/Industries to change, to acquire and adapt to the required skill and competences.

But, apparently, no so for car mechanics.

Why?

Jeroen

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

No, but they probably did not know how to set up a carburator either. An old or a modern car, most people have no clue about the technical stuff, which is fine.

What is puzzling me is why, apparently, there is such a problem with maintaining some modern cars in India.

In a country that has resources in abundance, people are very eager to learn and develop themselves. I work in the Telecom industry and we rely heavily and place a lot of our very high tech work (From R&D to daily running of our customers telecom networks) on our Indian colleagues.

India has a tremendous appetite for learning new stuff, for moving itself ahead. So why is this not the case for car mechanics apparently?

We see many members reporting just not being able to get a problem diagnosed properly. Why is that? Why is the Indian automative sector not able to train its mechanics properly?

During my years in India, I have never encountered any problems with training our staff. Everybody loved it and the more training, the more complex the better.

New technology makes it into our daily world/routines all the time. India has proven itself very capable on many fronts/Industries to change, to acquire and adapt to the required skill and competences.

But, apparently, no so for car mechanics.

Why?

Jeroen

Ok. With the very real possibility of getting stoned for these statements , i am going to state my theory on this subject :

" Car mechanic is considered too low a profession for some aspiring tech nerd to get involved".

Last i checked it needed a ITI / diploma to be able to get a car technician job and AFAIK, none of the ITI colleges have any kind of curriculum which covers such subjects. To be more blunt, i would not be surprised if it turns out that most of the members here ( including me ) don't any idea of how to use an OBD software.

And i am guessing that we are getting .

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Miyata

What appears to be anecdotally clear is that the overall reliability/dependability on cars has improved over time. Meaning, I can, in general, trust the newer cars better in taking me from point A to point B.

People might have also become lot more impatient and cry foul on any single glitch they come across. Just as an example, my camry has had issues with the bluetooth connectivity over almost an year now. It will connect at times and not at others. It is a hassle but nothing really critical enough to bother me!

Thanks for sharing, makes for an interesting read.
A few comments thoughts: I do believe we just used to put up with a lot more niggles in the past as well.

We are having endless debates about the pro-s / con’s of hydraulic steering versus electrical/electronics steering. But not too long ago, we had none of this, it was just manual and almost all cars suffered from steering play. Nobody complained, that was just the norm. People will sue today if their one year old car has 1mm of steering play.

To my earlier point, making these comparisons on what is better / more reliable is very tricky.

Originally Posted by Miyata

All said and done, there is certainly truth to the thought that more components one has in a car (or any commodity) there is higher probability of getting more errors/glitches in its lifespan. [Probabilities adding up for various events]
.

To some this will be nitpicking or just semantics. I have come across this very statement multiple times in the last couple of days on the forum. It is simply not true. It is not the number of components that determines the probability of getting errors/glitches. It is the combination of the individual failure rate of a component in combination with the number of components.

Planes have become hugely complex compared to say 30 years ago. But their reliability has increased dramatically!

To our earlier point; the relevance of these errors and glitches is in the eye of the beholder. If your bluetooth does not work anymore, you can still drive your car fine!

Planes have become hugely complex compared to say 30 years ago. But their reliability has increased dramatically!

Jeroen

[Tucker48]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

New technology makes it into our daily world/routines all the time. India has proven itself very capable on many fronts/Industries to change, to acquire and adapt to the required skill and competences.

But, apparently, no so for car mechanics.

Why?

Jeroen

Yes, new technologies will always make things/cars more reliable.

Not enough competent mechanics?
There is almost no competition to authorised dealerships because we still don't have RIGHT TO REPAIR law wherein manufacturers have to give independent auto repair shops standardized access to the diagnostic tools that automakers give their franchised dealers.

Having said that, we can't expect mechanics to know everything but we can expect them to consult the concerned expert if the need arises.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

No, but they probably did not know how to set up a carburator either. An old or a modern car, most people have no clue about the technical stuff, which is fine.

What is puzzling me is why, apparently, there is such a problem with maintaining some modern cars in India.

ECU & BCM - two things that make poor FNG`s life hell. Most of them have no clue what happens around these things. You see an FNG has to attend to whatever brand vehicle that shows up that morning, most of the times its just an oil change or other consumables. Drive train, suspension related Mechanical things - thats what a mechanic is supposed to do!!

If they find a non mechanical problem , often its the headache of the higher authority - Electrician. This is an even smaller shop, as usual he is more bothered about Electrical stuff, the only electronic stuff he deals with will be a Stereo. Anything more complex is referred to 'Showroom' - the authorized service center.

Nevertheless, none of these guys have any incentive to investigate and fix your car other than the obvious things because they do not get paid by the hour, their labor charges are always negotiable.

Even at the authorized service centers - there is only one or two people who can use the scan tool and anything other than the ordinary - a separate technician who is on the payroll of the manufacturer \ another vendor has to come and take a look, that fellow will visit all dealers in a certain area based on issues that the dealer`s technicians cannot diagnose.

We have some dealer principals on this forum, I think they can provide us more information as to why there is a lack of knowledge on this part.

[NiInJa]

Electronics can be expensive, its not about the physical part but the brains that go behind developing it and the value that it adds that makes it expensive. To give an example, in my early days I developed a small Windows batch file for taking a production application's back-up and put it in a folder, zipped and archived by date and time. A college kid would do that just by googling stuff. I saw the invoice by mistake, my company had charged an arm and a leg to the customer just for that small piece of code, simply because it would be a life saver for them when the time came.

Digressing from the actual topic:
The problem with electronics in cars is that while they work, its all good, but when they fail, they create a huge problem. Mechanical things fail too, but most people have a fair idea of when/how they might fail (excessive wear and tear, bad driving habits, metal fatigue etc). In India, more than half of the service center guys will be clueless if some electronic device fails. An example, my brother's Linea just died in the middle of the road once with ABS light blinking. The service guys kept the car for one day but couldn't figure what the problem was. Then some wise guy asked them to try with a different battery and she started as if nothing had happened ! Apparently, ABS is very sensitive to battery voltage and exact current rating and a slight deviation will not start the car, but it wont show battery low indication.

Second example, there is a thread where Hyundai Creta's ABS module fails and the brakes don't work, some for relatively new cars. If I am not mistaken, Hyundai has not figured out what the problem is except that they are just replacing some sensors and other things.

[Jeroen]

As a point of reference;

I copied this from the so called SERVICE TRAINING COURSE 682 ADVANCED JAGUAR ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS.

This is how Jaguar sees it:

[landcruiser123]

Expect this % to rise- with EVs, Metal parts will be limited to: Structural parts, wheels, suspension, brakes, motors, and some ancillaries. It is true that cars have got more complex to repair and the world has gone to replace rather than a repair mentality.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

What is puzzling me is why, apparently, there is such a problem with maintaining some modern cars in India.

The job of a mechanic in India doesn't get any respect or fair pay in the society. So, they don't get a proper education. There's only so little a weeklong training program organized by the manufacturer can teach you.

Mechanics abroad have to get an education (associate's degree) and also learn on the job.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

More seriously, I don't think the Deloitte report is being "honest" about the number. Can "Electric Power Steering" really be called an electronic item?

.

Of course. The only non electrical thing in the EPS would be the steering rack and column which are nothing but linkages. The bigger part of the cost comes from the motor, the controller and the sensors which are definitely not cheap compared to the linkage which is nothing but a set of metal rods with a simple rack and pinion arrangement. Hence, as of today, cost wise the EPS is more an electronic item than a mechanical item. Lets take this real world example of an Alto which is one of the cheapest cars in the market:
Cost of EPS ECU - 7000
Cost of Steering column with PS motor - 23900
Cost of Steering column without PS Motor - 2400
Actual cost of PS motor - 23900 - 2400 = 21500
Cost of Steering rack - 8000

Hence, total cost of electronic components = 7000 + 21500 = 28500
Total cost of mechanical components = 2400 + 8000 = 10400

It is seen that the electronic components are the expensive parts compared to mechanical stuff. Hence if we start calculating in this manner, you will realise that these numbers are indeed true. I dont have the exact numbers but for a Mercedes S class, the cost of electronics is wayyy higher than 40% and close to double of that. 40% can be accounted even in mass market cars or even entry level cars as of today if you go to the premium segment with incredible bells and whistles, 40% will be a puny number. Each headlight of a premium car costs in lakhs, say around 3L odd for the E class for a single side headlight. Tail lights are no small cost either. If these are itself expensive, we do not even have to discuss about Active safety systems. The mechanical component in an airbag will be the inflator, which is a pyrotechnic cracker and a cloth like material. The money goes in development of the system which will trigger these mechanical objects. We arent even at the ADAS topic yet Having a set of five radars and a stereo camera is no cheap affair either. Hence, it could be that the report shared by deloitte might be some marketing stuff, but I would definitely not disagree with the numbers.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Cost of EPS ECU - 7000
Cost of Steering column with PS motor - 23900
Cost of Steering column without PS Motor - 2400
Actual cost of PS motor - 23900 - 2400 = 21500
Cost of Steering rack - 8000

In this example, isn't the power steering motor an ELECTRICAL component, rather than an ELECTRONIC component? If yes, the breakup would be -

Electronic component (Electric Power Steering ECU) = Rs. 7,000
Electrical component (Power Steering Motor) = Rs. 21,500
Mechanical component (Steering rack) = Rs. 10,400

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

In this example, isn't the power steering motor an ELECTRICAL component, rather than an ELECTRONIC component? If yes, the breakup would be -

Electronic component (Electric Power Steering ECU) = Rs. 7,000
Electrical component (Power Steering Motor) = Rs. 21,500
Mechanical component (Steering rack) = Rs. 10,400

Come on! Then if you see from the scope of a semiconductor company you will have to say the cost of semiconductors in this would be a few hundred rupees at most. After this we have to consider the cost of software development and testing for the controllers. In the industry, we can't go deep in such classification so when the comparison is done, its between mechanical and electrical. Same case applies to mechanical which might be metallurgy, plastic whatever. Its a common comparison done in many presentations, meetings etc in the industry to highlight the cost of mechanical vs electrical as a whole.

[Jeroen]

Listen, I think we need to put some practical perspective on all of this. Lets have a look at a real car, lift the bonnet and look at how much electrical stuff is there

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Expect this % to rise- with EVs, Metal parts will be limited to: Structural parts, wheels, suspension, brakes, motors, and some ancillaries.

I am not sure if that is the case. True , a motor needs a controller with some serious electronics but it also eliminates a lot of other sensors like AFR sensor, Pressure sensors etc. We should also keep in mind that EV's would eliminate clutch , conventional gear boxes , cooling circuit ( i.e for the engine). Turbo charger, Oil circulation pump and associated circuits , fuel injection circuit, exhaust gas pipes , catalytic converters just to name a few that i know of. Now that is a lot of things gone and i am assuming that they had some level of electronics associated with them too. Yes, there would be additions too like battery monitoring circuits, battery cooling circuits, electronic fuses, a few volt / ammeters and also an ECU but in terms of complexity it would not be so much of a maze as compared to the present ICE engine. An electrical motor is a pretty straight forward animal ,a rotor , a stator and thats it.This is talking only about the engine . The body electronics is still going to remain the same and a few crazed technocrats like Elon Musk are going to make life even more complex by making electronic door handles that jams and yeah your In car entertainment systems is still not going to function even in an EV but that's a different topic.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Listen, I think we need to put some practical perspective on all of this. Lets have a look at a real car, lift the bonnet and look at how much electrical stuff is there

Attachment 2003067

That is trick photography.

[Kosfactor]

What if the real cost of Electronics is not what you`ve got - But something you did not?

More electronics can be due to consumer demand as well as government regulations and manufacturers have to listen to both, of course. Consumer obviously do not ask for certain things and manufacturers have taken them out over a period of time.

Some features like touchscreen have come from higher segment to lower ones and some mechanical bits have gone up many segments high over the last decade. Here is a list that I can think of , bits that are missing now in the reasonably priced segment that you used to get earlier.

1. Independent rear suspension - no more available under 10L.
2. Rear Disc brake - I think i20 used to have them earlier under 10L.
3. Soft padded door cards, handrests - becoming rare.
4. Lost a Cylinder - 3 Cyl becoming more common under 10L.
5. Adjustable headrests.
6. Rear wiper
7. Plastic oil pans, plastic intake are becoming common instead of metal - A rat had started to gnaw through some bits attached to the Kwid`s engine when were trying to jump start it last week. (Kwid has touchscreen from Duster).
8. FWD based car for the same money instead of RWD - applicable to higher segments, BMW, Merc etc.
9. Strut suspension instead of double wishbone - applicable to higher segments.
10. Single door insulation instead of double.
11. Under hood \ bonnet insulation.
12. Driver is becoming an operator

Feel free to add \ correct, lets see where this goes.