[Miyata]

According to this source -

Computers have been disrupting cars for more than 50 years, and no one expects that reality to end anytime soon.

The microprocessors and chips that power modern vehicles are now so prevalent that they're practically a commodity in the same vein as steel and aluminum. Computers are used in everything from the mundane (such as basic trip computers) to the near magical (think road-scanning active suspensions). They've made cars quicker, safer, cleaner, more efficient, and more reliable—better in every way. And while individual chips may be cheap these days, the computer's significance is evident in just how many there are in a single car. Electronics are responsible for 40 percent of a new car's total cost, according to a Deloitte analysis. That's up from 18 percent in 2000.

...

Computing technology has also fundamentally altered the processes of automotive design, engineering, and manufacturing. Digital tools empower engineers to turn out cars faster, with greater precision and confidence in their work. Parts fit together with tighter tolerances, virtual environments simulate a lifetime of testing in a matter of days, and assembly lines spit out cars as though they were die-cast models.

Mods - Please merge it to a post that may be appropriate. Thanks.

[fiestarry]

The same electronics that are responsible for the improved efficiency, response, braking, safety, ease of operation, pollution levels etc are the reason that cars can no longer be run beyond the 10-12 year mark reliably and economically.
With mid and upper segment cars getting a huge bouquet of electronics in India since 2010, the real effect of it is yet to be felt in full magnitude.
I personally think that cars should be made to last 20 years with minor upgrades for pollution and safety requirements. Aftermarket plug and play devices should have no effect on the long term maintenance of the vehicle.

[Miyata]

True. Totally agreed.

Over the years we have moved from about 40+nm to 10-14nm transistors and going down further towards 7nm and less!

While the mechanical parts will (is expected to) remain good for 18-20 year period, there is still not much data/clarity on the electronic components – how they will age through the use under varying conditions of stress, temperatures, humidity, system integration, etc. The reliability and lifespan of these automotive-electronics might still be on the path of discovery – much of the systemic faults might be well resolved; the random ones will be where we might get stuck!

Wonder if the folks in automotive-electronics industry consider backwards compatibility (and how far backwards) as the control processes and technologies (of chip manufacturing, parts integration and software development) evolve.

[SmartCat]

However, for the Indian consumer, taxes account for 40% of the cost of a new car!

More seriously, I don't think the Deloitte report is being "honest" about the number. Can "Electric Power Steering" really be called an electronic item?



And just because crash detection and airbag deployment uses some electronics, I think they have classified the entire "airbags cost" under Electronics.

The reason why this 40% number is unlikely to be true for mainstream cars because whenever there is increase/drop in basic commodity prices like steel, crude oil (plastics), Aluminum etc, car manufacturers raise or lower the prices citing raw material costs. However, since premium cars are packed with features (powered everything), perhaps "electronics & electricals" does account for high percentage of the costs.

[Miyata]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

I don't think the Deloitte report is being "honest" about the number. Can "Electric Power Steering" really be called an electronic item?

Yea, there is always elements of doubt (uncertainty) in any such report. It wasn't clear to me they were adding up these "other" components (air bag and accessories; accessories of power steering such as DC motors, steering/reduction gear, etc) towards automotive-electronic cost.

I would assume they are only adding the basic chips; microcontrollers; sensors; may be communication buses; the (substantial) cost of testing the h/w and s/w;etc. Hard to say though.

Yes, as you mentioned, surely the premiums cars would have higher percentage of automotive-electronics cost.

All of this is also certain to increase in days to come - electronics and s/w of connected cars, self-driving/autonomous cars, AI-heavy chips, increasing self-diagnostics and maintenance, higher b/w communications of variety of signals (videos; acoustics; and all other sensors for proximity, chemicals, temperature, humidity and host of other parameters;...). Much of the automotive tech advancement that we are witnessing is chiefly from electronics and s/w!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by fiestarry

The same electronics that are responsible for the improved efficiency, response, braking, safety, ease of operation, pollution levels etc are the reason that cars can no longer be run beyond the 10-12 year mark reliably and economically.
.

I am not sure of that at all.
Do you have any real factual data to back up that statement?
Electronics have made their way into cars since the 70s.

There is this “electronics make for long term unreliability and or costly repairs” sentiment on the internet. But I have yet to see, some fundamental data on this. We need to look at this, way beyond a bit of personal experience.

When we say car before the electronic era were more reliable or lasted longer, how was that defined/measured? In fact in most of the western world, the average age of cars has actually been going up somewhat over the last couple of decades! Just because there are still thousands of T-Fords on the roads today doesn’t make it more reliable or long term cost effective car then a modern car.

Jeroen

Originally Posted by SmartCat

More seriously, I don't think the Deloitte report is being "honest" about the number. Can "Electric Power Steering" really be called an electronic item?

The reason why this 40% number is unlikely to be true for mainstream cars because whenever there is increase/drop in basic commodity prices like steel, crude oil (plastics), Aluminum etc, car manufacturers raise or lower the prices citing raw material costs. However, since premium cars are packed with features (powered everything), perhaps "electronics & electricals" does account for high percentage of the costs.

That was my very first gut reaction as well. It comes down to the definition of electronics I guess.

Jeroen

[fiestarry]

One doesn't have to provide data and empirical evidence for what is common knowledge.
Cars in India, which I was referring to, certainly didn't overflow with electronics in the 70s.
It is a fairly recent phenomenon that all segments are getting them.
Besides, long term reliability is also about repairability, availability of spares, economical maintenance, local expertise for glitches etc.
Most manufacturers are unable to provide support for such components beyond a few years. We had to sell off an Optra Tdi for such reasons, my Skodas have glitches with many electronic components, all of which need costly replacement and not repair.
It is quite another thing when we talk about Europe and the US where parts availability is amazing even from third party vendors.
The cost of replacing electronics is what leads to the scrapping of most mid and higher segment cars in India.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by fiestarry

One doesn't have to provide data and empirical evidence for what is common knowledge.

Well, we will have to disagree on that approach I am afraid. Just because a lot of people hold a certain believe in a particular topic, does not make it true at all.

On a different thread we are discussing the exact same matter. A certain items get widely reported across main stream media across the globe. For many folks it appears logical and then it becomes truth. However, a little bit more digging and that truths falls apart rapidly.

The sentiment that modern cars last less than their predecessor is not unique to India at all. Google something like “are modern cars less reliable, do modern cars have a shorter life span” and you will find hundreds if not thousands of posts claiming that fact. Have a go, most of these post will be coming from the USA and Europe, because that’s where we have the most cars.

I spend a lot of my time dealing with Classic cars. Classic car enthusiast are the worst when it comes to this. Listening to them, you would think no half decent car has been build anywhere on this planet for at least 40 years. Whereas I love classic cars, owe three of them, my wife’s 2016 little Ford Fiesta is much better and reliable car than my three cars put together. And I am also pretty sure it will outlive them too, given time.

But also have a look at who makes this posts. Nearly all individuals, expressing such sentiments. Nobody has anything beyond personal experience and or sentiment.

If you do start digging a little deeper, you might encounter some very different thoughts. And you will find those different view tends to come from large organisations who are likely to have a lot of data. Leasing companies, Automobile Associations etc.

Part of the problem is the definition. What is the definition of reliable running? Or beyond economic repair. Thirty years ago, those terms most likely had a different meaning. There were fewer cars to start with, the cost of car, purchasing and maintenance compared to disposable income was very different etc.

There are a few organisation that do publish some data. Most AA will tell you that the total number of break downs compared to 30 years ago, on a per car basis has come down dramatically. The cause of those breakdowns has shifted. For instance, the German AA has been reporting the last few years as the battery being the main culprit (not the electronics)

I got my first company car, through a leasing company 30 years ago. In those days an operational lease was never for more than 3 years/100.000km. These days it is 4 years/150.000km sometimes more.

We know going by many (a.o. governmental) databasis that the average mileage a car does during its life span is still steadily on the rise.

If you want to say something about how long a car lasts, you need to look not just at number of years, but at least also at mileage. Everybody knows a few stories about that old Ford/Ambassador/Mercedes that clocked a billion/zillion miles without requiring anything more than basic maintenance. But those are likely to be exceptions, rather than the rule.

Modern cars tend to clock much higher mileage in shorter times than thirty/fourty years ago. So I don’t think you can compare say a car lasting 10 years forty years ago, with a car lasting 10 years today. You need to find a way to normalise this or you are comparing the proverbial apples to pears I believe.

The other things is how the human mind works; we tend to paint way too rosey images about the past. We have simply forgotten how unreliable cars were 40 years ago.

So I don’t think it is that straight forward.

Originally Posted by fiestarry

Cars in India, which I was referring to, certainly didn't overflow with electronics in the 70s.

Electronics were introduced in the 70s, such as transistorised ignition modules, followed by simple injection and ignition computer based systems.

If India was importing cars from the west from the 90s onwards, those cars would have had ECUs and potentially other electronic components.

Although many people refer to “electronic” problems in practice it rarely is. In many cases faults that manifest itself as “electronics” as simple mechanical faults in connectors, or dirty connectors, poor grounding etc. Can be a problem diagnosing, but that is more a competence issue than anything else.

And yes, the west suffers from the same problem. Lots of car people, from car enthusiasts down to mechanics simply have poor diagnostic skills when it comes to electrical issues. So that is a real issue of course, but solvable. And over the last decade I have seen it improving considerably. Partly because the car DIY scene has made it’s own. Which gives a great boost to professional workshops to be able to do at least the same, if not better.

A car without electronics will never ever have an electronic problem. That does not make it a better/more reliable.

So, I am not saying you are wrong. But I have a different way of looking at things, not necessarily about being right or wrong. I don’t care. But I do like to understand things. And that usually means digging a bit deeper, never taking things for granted and never excepting common beliefs as being the truth.

Over the years I have come across many different points of view, from reputable sources (well, at least I think they are reputable) that suggest a bit more complexity to the issue at hand before you can reach any meaningful conclusion.

Jeroen

[Kosfactor]

I`m just wondering - what if your car manufacturer does not update your AVN system after a few years?

Some of them may not even exist in India after a few years - and then you buy your brand new iPhone and Android phone to realize that the CarPlay \ Android Auto no longer works!

The car in itself will continue to function but now a very desirable function of that car - smartphone integration no longer works.

The same goes for all other electronic systems including driver assist features, there should be some regulation to ensure that all electronic systems will be updated as necessary for up-to 7 years post end of production , a lot like the parts availability.

[srini1785]

If electronics improves safety, efficiency and ease of driving and gives a maintenance free operation then i don't mind a percentage even higher than 40. The argument is only whether we are introducing more points of failure than what is needed. Finding the fine line between what is necessary and " because it can be done" feature is necessary not only in cars but with any piece of machinery. Its a proven fact that complex systems have multiple points of failure.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Its a proven fact that complex systems have multiple points of failure.

Whether something fails or not is down the individual reliability of each component.

Planes are hugely complex, with thousands upon thousands of components (point of failure) that can fail. But they rarely do and no it is not just down to redundancy.

So multiple points of failure as such does not mean anything. The rate of failure (reliability) is much more relevant.

As to my earlier post, there is evidence that cars, across the board, have become more reliable, despite becoming more and more complex.

think of for instance the regular maintenance interval, that have come up tremendously. Less frequent and much more simple than before.

Jeroen

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

On a different thread we are discussing the exact same matter. A certain items get widely reported across main stream media across the globe. For many folks it appears logical and then it becomes truth. However, a little bit more digging and that truths falls apart rapidly.

I spend a lot of my time dealing with Classic cars. Classic car enthusiast are the worst when it comes to this. Listening to them, you would think no half decent car has been build anywhere on this planet for at least 40 years. Whereas I love classic cars, owe three of them, my wife’s 2016 little Ford Fiesta is much better and reliable car than my three cars put together. And I am also pretty sure it will outlive them too, given time.

But also have a look at who makes this posts. Nearly all individuals, expressing such sentiments. Nobody has anything beyond personal experience and or sentiment.


Jeroen

Thank you very much Jeroen for addressing this. I have been hearing this constantly from some of my friends but the fact of the matter is this - older cars obviously were simpler and easier to fix, so most people could do much of the maintenance themselves or from simple garages. But older cars were also indeed notoriously unreliable. I remember my dad saying that old Amby and Padmini drivers used to keep their engine hood open after long journeys to dissipate the heat from the engine, this is unheard of these days! I suppose nostalgia has created a sort of amnesia for most people.

Newer cars on the other hand breakdown much less often but due to their complicated electronics need to be serviced at professional garages by technicians with computers. I for one am terrible in DIY, so I always prefer the latter.

Also, I might be wrong here but I've heard that the initial lot of cars with advanced electronics were less reliable than the later ones when the integration of tech into the cars was perfected. An example I've heard often is Mercedes W211 vs W212 (please correct me on this).

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

I have been hearing this constantly from some of my friends but the fact of the matter is this - older cars obviously were simpler and easier to fix, so most people could do much of the maintenance themselves or from simple garages.

I don’t agree. These days many DIY car enthusiast are maintaining their own modern cars too. Maybe not so much in India, but certainly in other parts of the world. Yes, the electronics and complexity require different tools, but these days all of those are very easily available at very accessible pricing too.

I bought my first semi-pro OBD Analyser and scanner in 2009. Software to be put on a laptop. Could only handle one car, my Jaguar. At the time it cost $1200,--

A few years ago I bought an Autel OBD Analyser. Can handle all systems, all generic and all manufacturer specific codes and take hundreds of live reading of the engines and system, on every car on the market. I can hook it up to a Fiat 500 or a Ferrari. Cost about Euro 350.

Check out the car enthusiast forums in the USA and you will be pleasantly surprised on the level of detail and knowledge that is available, for free, in the public domain.

But there is some sort of anti-electronic sentiment. Not just with cars. You can see/hear it about other stuff as well. Many people rant and rave about electronics making things less reliable. From their cars to their cookers, to their extractor fans. But they never fixed their own extractor fans in the first place either.

If you check my hobby-fiddling with cars thread you will notice that over the course of the last three years I have encountered various problems which most people would classify as “electronic”. But they never were, they were all to do with simple things, mostly corroded contacts and loose connectors.

In fact I have only shown one actual broken electronic component: last week I took apart our extractor fan as it was not running properly on high setting. I traced it down to a faulty capacitor. No measurement or fancy test tools. A leaking capacitor (an Elco) you can simply spot.

So simpler to fix is in the eye of the beholder. It is beyond me why people have this believe it is more simple to set up a complicated carburator system, requiring some very special tools as well and lots of experience, or tune a modern electronically controlled system through your laptop. It requires different skills obviously.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

But older cars were also indeed notoriously unreliable. I remember my dad saying that old Amby and Padmini drivers used to keep their engine hood open after long journeys to dissipate the heat from the engine, this is unheard of these days! I suppose nostalgia has created a sort of amnesia for most people.

Yes, we have conveniently forgotten how unreliable our cars were. Cold, wet starts on carburator cars were always going to be difficult. Hand choking was a difficult skill and it was taught as part of your driving lessons!

Remember flooding your carburator? And of course rust!!

These days we have forgotten more or less. But just about all cars rusted really badly. Many cars were simple taken of the roads, due to rust damaging structural integrity of the car. It is still a fail in today’s MOT, but it is very much a carry over from cars made 30-40 years ago.

In my earlier car days, when still at naval college, I have had to take some of my cars to the scrap yard, because they were just so badly rusted. Have not done that for the last couple of decades.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Newer cars on the other hand breakdown much less often but due to their complicated electronics need to be serviced at professional garages by technicians with computers.

See above, I don’t agree. It is true that in order to service a modern car, one does need to have a different set of skills and relearn some stuff. And obviously it does require some other tools. That is most likely beyond some car mechanics in places like India, whom have set up shop at the side of the road.

On the other hand, if you study the statistics of all major AA in Europe about what sort of problems they are called out to fix, it is typical things that do not require much special tooling, only knowledge and experience. Modern cars are still fixed when stranded, by AAs all around the world. Average fixing time less than 10 minutes to get you going. Which is a good indication on how easy it is to fix most modern cars, to at least get you going again.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Also, I might be wrong here but I've heard that the initial lot of cars with advanced electronics were less reliable than the later ones when the integration of tech into the cars was perfected. An example I've heard often is Mercedes W211 vs W212 (please correct me on this).

As with any new technology that gets introduced you might see some problems. And most, if not all, manufacturers have had episodes where they struggle with new technology.

The first couple of thousand T-Fords coming out of Henri’s factory were probably a lot less well made than the last ones.

But the underlying trends, over time is more reliability.

Much has been said about Mercedes and it’s legendary robustness and reliability. Depends on whom you ask, but many will point to the W123 as the last proper Mercedes with proper Mercedes build quality. Everything since is crap.

I happen to own a W123 and it is a very nice car, it is also very obvious how well it was put together and I have written about it several times in my hobby-fiddling with car thread. But it is far without faults. It is about the worst car I have ever owned when it comes to rust! But it does have a transistorised ignition and touch wood, those things outlast many of its cars. They hardly ever break! And if they do it is usually because a cable got damaged, water ingress, but not because the transistors are wearing out. (which by the way, eventually they will)

So there is likely to be a considerable difference in how reliable and how long modern cars last. But fundamentally I believe they are more reliable and will last longer. As with everything certain pre-requisites need to be in place. E.g. spares, knowledge, skills etc. But that is probably just a matter of time.

Simple only mechanics has a lot going for it, no doubt. And by and large, they are easy to fix. But that does not necessarily make them more reliable perse, or make them last longer. For many adding electronics, is adding complexity and adding multi points of failure. But that does not mean it becomes less reliable

At the same time it is very obvious that we do see a lot of problems with modern cars in India where their owners have real difficulties getting them fixed. We have many posts and threads were members are really struggling to get their cars properly diagnosed, let alone fixed.
So here is something that does puzzle me:
How come in a country like India, with a huge labour force, eager to learn and develop itself, there appears to be an apparent lack of competent mechanics that knows how to diagnose/trouble shoot modern cars?

In western countries you don’t need to rely on main stream dealers to find competent car mechanics. In fact many independent ones, specialise in one particular model. How come in a country with so much entrepreneurial enthusiasm and people eager to lean, this is still an issue apparently?

Jeroen

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I don’t agree. These days many DIY car enthusiast are maintaining their own modern cars too. ....

Wherein lies the problem. It depends on the person who is handling the repairs and its not for everyone to do their repairs on their own. Do you think that an average car owner knows all the technical stuff to do it on their own?. No one (including me) is claiming that electronics have not had a positive impact on car related tech. Its just that sometimes this tech is even beyond the knowledge of some of the service guys. For proof see numerous posts on this forum where owners have vented out their frustration on some faulty diagnosis by service guys.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

How come in a country like India, with a huge labour force, eager to learn and develop itself, there appears to be an apparent lack of competent mechanics that knows how to diagnose/trouble shoot modern cars?

In western countries you don’t need to rely on main stream dealers to find competent car mechanics. In fact many independent ones, specialise in one particular model. How come in a country with so much entrepreneurial enthusiasm and people eager to lean, this is still an issue apparently?

Jeroen

Thank you Jeroen for your very detailed and interesting explanation.

I think the main reason why India is having trouble with troubleshooting modern cars is probably because:

1) High-end car ownership in reasonable numbers came to India quite late, so Indians didn't have much passed down knowledge and had to learn from scratch (with varying levels of foreign expertise coming in offcourse). The Chinese offcourse had the same problem, but they are a much bigger market now and have much more high-end cars selling there.

2) Most cars sold in India are still smaller and cheaper cars (which generally have less tech) as compared to Europe. For example, Mercedes sold 11,319 cars in the month of October 2019 in the UK while they sold just 13,786 cars in India over the whole year of 2019 despite being a much larger country. So, someone driving say a Mercedes C or E class in the UK will find it much easier to get their car fixed as compared to someone in India. Specializing in a high-end brands don't make sense since not many people have high-end cars anyway (given the size of the country).

3) The climate generally runs havoc on any electronic in India especially during the 2000s though now they've gotten more reliable, perhaps this is applicable for cars too (my speculation).