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Old 11th September 2020, 14:28   #1
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Default Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

There are multiple cases ongoing in the EU and US courts over technology patents owned mainly by Nokia.

Nokia, Qualcomm and Sharp have joined forces in the Avanci LLC patent pool, which promises to collect royalties from the car industry by offering a fixed price per vehicle, currently running at $15 a car for a 4G-standard license. Daimler disagrees and wants to maintain the practice of suppliers negotiating the licenses, ideally at a fraction of the umbrella-deal cost.
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A good decade after Nokia Oyj’s mobile-phone business suffered a fatal blow at the hands of the iPhone, the Finnish company is still feeding off a lucrative asset that it salvaged from the wreckage.
Nokia retained a catalog of thousands of wireless communications patents that is steadily growing thanks to a thriving research operation. Now an attempt to change how those patents are monetized has led Nokia into court with Daimler AG, the maker of Mercedes-Benz cars.
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Modern automobiles are so brimming with electronic gadgetry that the industry has casually likened its products to smartphones on wheels. Wireless technology allows occupants to make calls, stream music or dial up emergency services in case of an accident. Traditionally, automakers require that their components makers, be it Continental AG or Robert Bosch AG, handle any royalty issues, and indemnify them for any patent demands that may come later
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Nokia is trying to enforce its approach via a high-stakes court battle, with hearings in Munich, Dusseldorf and Mannheim. It’s here that the Finns struck legal gold: the company won an injunction that could stop Daimler from selling cars in Germany, which would be a suicidal situation for the inventor of the automobile on its home turf. One consolation for Daimler is that enforcing a car-sale ban would require Nokia to post collateral of 7 billion euros ($8.3 billion) in a separate proceeding, a risky proposition for the Finnish company given the huge outlay.
But here is where it gets interesting
Quote:
But then on Sept. 10, Sharp won an injunction in a Munich court that also threatens a ban on Daimler vehicles, albeit at a much lower collateral of just 5.5 million euros, putting additional pressure on the carmaker.
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While Daimler is appealing the ruling, it sent major shock waves through the industry and beyond (Nokia surged about 3% after the verdict). At stake isn’t just the licensing model for patents used in cars, but in pretty much every product that promises wireless connectivity, be it a fridge, a combine harvester or a medical device. For Nokia and its peers, the automobile industry is only the tip of the licensing iceberg, and they’re going global.
There's another counter case in the US filed by Continental claiming a royalty of 15$ as demanded would wipe out all profits of component makers.
Quote:
Continental has gone one step further, fielding a suit against Avanci in the U.S. and urging the European Commission to step in and stop what it considers unfair competition. Like Daimler, Continental is invoking a rule stating that technology needed by everyone must be shared under fair terms.
A royalty of $15 as demanded by Avanci would wipe out all profit for the components makers, and that doesn’t include patent owners who aren’t part of the Avanci platform but also want to get paid, the company contends.
This case looks headed to the EU's top court with no end in sight
Quote:
It’s not all bad news for Daimler and the suppliers in its corner. At a hearing in Dusseldorf earlier this month, the judges indicated they want the EU’s top court to weigh in on the dispute. The judges in Luxembourg should say whether Nokia can pick and choose whom they want to license to in the supply chain -- an important legal milestone for Daimler.
But recent rulings in California and London as well as Nokia’s Mannheim win have benefited owners of patents for standard-essential technology, said Jorge Contreras, a University of Utah law professor who specializes in the intersection of patent and antitrust law. Ultimately, it could give them an edge when trying to negotiate licenses.
Read More: https://www.livemint.com/companies/n...800090647.html

Last edited by AZT : 11th September 2020 at 14:29.
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Old 11th September 2020, 14:35   #2
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

Upon reading the title, the immediate thought which came to me was that they've probably ended up making fewer units of the EQC to offset their CO2 emissions from other production cars and ended up behind on CAFE norms.

Turned out to be completely different!
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Old 11th September 2020, 15:10   #3
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

Companies like this who are deadwood should be legislated out of existence. Their patents are worth nothing if the end user goes out of business.
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Old 13th September 2020, 07:26   #4
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

Mod Note: Thread moved to the International Scene. Thanks for sharing!
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Old 13th September 2020, 10:31   #5
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
Companies like this who are deadwood should be legislated out of existence. Their patents are worth nothing if the end user goes out of business.
How convenient! It is patented technology. Countless resources were used to create that invention. The fact that Nokia today is not the Nokia of the 90s/2000s has no effect on it. The invention and technology is still relevant. After all Daimler wants to use it in 2020.

What is stopping Daimler from negotiating a licensing deal with Nokia and use its technology. BMW and VW do it.

If they dont want to do it, have your in house team develop similar technology from scratch. But you cannot use someone elses hard work in your new product and not even expect to financially reimburse them.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 13th September 2020 at 12:17. Reason: Dialmer > Daimler
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Old 13th September 2020, 10:48   #6
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

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How convenient! It is patented technology. Countless resources were used to create that invention. The fact that Nokia today is not the Nokia of the 90s/2000s has no effect on it. The invention and technology is still relevant. After all Dialmer wants to use it in 2020.

What is stopping Diamler from negotiating a licensing deal with Nokia and use its technology. BMW and VW do it.

If they dont want to do it, have your in house team develop similar technology from scratch. But you cannot use someone elses hard work in your new product and not even expect to financially reimburse them.
They are asking for a lot of money and they have proven themselves incapable of selling anything. The end user can't pay more than the market price of the product for a component, some of these patents are just swindles, mostly bought off public research. The Chinese will be making a copy and improving the patented tech while Nokia will bankrupt functioning companies to benefit trial lawyers.
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Old 13th September 2020, 11:12   #7
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
They are asking for a lot of money and they have proven themselves incapable of selling anything. The end user can't pay more than the market price of the product for a component, some of these patents are just swindles, mostly bought off public research. The Chinese will be making a copy and improving the patented tech while Nokia will bankrupt functioning companies to benefit trial lawyers.
They can ask whatever they think the patent commands. It is upto Daimler to negotiate. How are you acquainted with the terms of the negotiation or what the financials laid down by Nokia are? Or if it is costing Daimler too much per car? We don't! What we know is through media reports.

Tomorrow it could be that the appellant court decides in favor of Daimler. Who knows. Industry patent infringements are very complex litigations.

Also, did you just say that Nokia has failed to sell anything? I am not sure about you but from where I am coming there was not one person in this country who owned a phone in the late 90s all through 2000 and did not posses a Nokia. A phone is more than a colorful plastic shell and Nokia has a long list of patented cellular tech.

So let Daimler buy it from the 'Chinese' who will copy the patented tech as you put it. They don't need to deal with Nokia. Nokia has an elaborate licensing program that almost all other major manufacturers license with including BMW, Audi, RR etc. Why is Daimler so special.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 13th September 2020 at 12:16. Reason: Dialmer > Daimler
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:00   #8
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

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Originally Posted by bigron View Post
They can ask whatever they think the patent commands....
Why is Daimler so special.
They can't ask for anything, and the patent is worth what the end user pays. Nokia is a patent troll at this point. I can't remember the last time I considered a Nokia smartphone, if they made them (before the Chinese revival) Why should Daimler stop selling cars because of a disputed patent?

I don't have to be acquainted with the process to have an opinion about it. Patents have a long history of abuse, luckily India didn't recognise medical patents that helped make medicines affordable, that's where I'm coming from.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 13th September 2020 at 12:16. Reason: Quoted post edited. Thanks.
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:18   #9
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
They can't ask for anything, and the patent is worth what the end user pays. Nokia is a patent troll at this point. I can't remember the last time I considered a Nokia smartphone, if they made them (before the Chinese revival) Why should Daimler stop selling cars because of a disputed patent?

I don't have to be acquainted with the process to have an opinion about it. Patents have a long history of abuse, luckily India didn't recognise medical patents that helped make medicines affordable, that's where I'm coming from.
Daimler will need to stop selling cars in the interim because that is how patent infringement litigation works. Read about it.
They can always suspend the use of borrowed technology and sell as many cars as they want till the litigation is decided.

You not considering a Nokia phone or how medical patents function in this country have no relation to the thread in question. Unless you are trying to say that this patent infringement can/should be ignored because nobody buys a Nokia phone today. In that case, I have nothing more to add or revert to your posts.

Last edited by Aditya : 20th September 2020 at 18:30. Reason: Typo
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Old 14th September 2020, 06:33   #10
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
I don't have to be acquainted with the process to have an opinion about it. Patents have a long history of abuse, luckily India didn't recognise medical patents that helped make medicines affordable, that's where I'm coming from.
Whether you like it or not, EVERY patent, if in use in another product, becomes part of the legacy of the product, becomes a reason for the products success.

It can be as simple as SIG/Ericsson owned Bluetooth technology, ABS patent given to GM in 1969 (which expired in 89) etc. If the patent is still held by the party then that party has the legal right to ask for royalty or enforce a cease on sales until either the royalty is given or that product is no longer in any use by the party to whom the usage rights was granted. Patents last 20 years, so if Nokia has taken Daimler to court over it, and if the Daimler sales are in question due to the pending verdict, then one can assume that Nokia has done so for good reason.

Also, Nokia is/was more than just mobile handsets, they have held over 1000 patents in 2G, 3G and 4G and now with 5G they filed for 2000 patents on that as well under the Nokia Bell Labs firm.

End of the day, the law (as it should), does not look at legacy or prestige or relevance of the company before handing over a verdict, if I had invented the system of nut and threaded bolts and had a valid patent to declare on the same, I can single-handedly file thousands of cases and become a billionaire by this year.
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Old 14th September 2020, 07:56   #11
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
I can't remember the last time I considered a Nokia smartphone, if they made them
The "phone" part of your smartphone should not be taken lightly. If you feel Nokia does not have an intellectual patent in that, your view would be justified, not necessarily correct.

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Old 14th September 2020, 19:20   #12
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
They are asking for a lot of money and they have proven themselves incapable of selling anything.
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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
Nokia is a patent troll at this point.
Nokia went out of smartphone business, but it doesn't mean their only source of revenue now is patent litigation. Nokia generated more than 23 billion "selling things" last FY, of which less than 1.5 billion came from patents. You are most likely using Nokia-patented tech on your phone and/or your mobile/fixed network service provider is likely using Nokia software to keep you "connected".
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Old 14th September 2020, 20:00   #13
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

Nokia is rightly placed and Daimler is bound to pay the royalties. On a different note, all these early telecom giants, Motorola and Nokia have so many patents with them and each one of us is paying them royalty on a daily basis. I don't agree on getting a Chinese copy, as it may still enable these tech companies to file a patent litigation for using a counterfeit technology similar to the one they hold. Double whammy here.

Patents are so powerful and the race for acquiring them is always on. The amount of resource (human and monetary) are so huge, that, they are worth to be paid for.

Quote:
In a post on the company's blog, Google CEO and co-founder Larry Page revealed that Google's acquisition of Motorola Mobility was a strategic move to strengthen Google's patent portfolio. At the time, the company had 17,000 patents, with 7,500 patents pending.The expanded portfolio was to defend the viability of its Android operating system, which had been the subject of numerous patent infringement lawsuits between device vendors and other companies such as Apple, Microsoft and Oracle.

Source:wiki

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
They can't ask for anything, and the patent is worth what the end user pays. Nokia is a patent troll at this point. I can't remember the last time I considered a Nokia smartphone,.
Here, The so called smartphone giant Apple is paying royalties to Nokia.

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Originally Posted by bigron View Post
If they dont want to do it, have your in house team develop similar technology from scratch. But you cannot use someone elses hard work in your new product and not even expect to financially reimburse them.
+1 . But this is going to be so hard and costly, that, they will eventually pay the demand from the Mobile Tech companies for them to survive
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Old 20th September 2020, 15:09   #14
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

I also agree with many others in this forum that Daimler is bound to royalty to Avanci LLC patent pool, which has patents from Nokia as well as many others. 15$ is not that big amount compared to the cost of a car. Heck, I am aware of many companies spending much more on royalty on consumer products, costing a tiny fraction of a Daimler car. As a rule of thumb, a $ spend on the Bill of Materials (BOM) would result in a cost of 3$ to the end customer. So, this would represent approximately 50$ for the product.

The patent pools always offer patents on FRAND (Fair, reasonable and Non-Discriminatory) basis. Hence Daimler alone cribbing does not make much of a sense.

Not considering the development cost, just for filing, defending the claims and maintaining a patent cost upwards of 25K$ abroad. Due to the very nature of patents and its claims, not all filed patents would be very effective. So, you need to have several patents for a usable pool. The bottom line is that it is indeed expensive for the companies who create their IP.

Last edited by n_ramesh99 : 20th September 2020 at 15:10. Reason: removing smiley link
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Old 20th September 2020, 20:14   #15
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Default Re: Daimler may be banned from selling cars in Germany over legal battle with Nokia and Sharp

Replace Nokia with Fiat, and patent with MJD. Why should MSIL have paid Fiat a licence fee or anything for the MJD? They could have just copied the engine, to hell with any legalities. After all, Fiat has pretty much proven themselves incapable of selling anything, just as much as Nokia has.

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