[Stribog]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

With such heavy investments over the years, Ford India I feel would stay put and let this dark clouds pass. After all it won't be easy to pack bags from one of the largest markets in the world. It's a tin can market though, one of the reasons why global behemoths like Ford, GM, VW etc struggles to hit a double digit market share after being here for a considerable period of time. And where would they pack the bags to if they can't exist here.

With Ford, it's a case of India(read enthusiasts) wanting Ford than the other way around. Else an Indian buyer who goes through the upgrade ladder would never know what it feels like to drive a Ford and what it takes to make cars with brilliant suspension, handling and tough build. They'll all end up with one or the other tin can all their lives. That's why it hurts me when manufacturers like FCA, Ford, VW etc struggle to stay afloat. Now VW group is the only hope. It won't be too long one can only have CBU/CKD's of these car makers.

I don't understand how 'tin can' market corresponds to success or failure in the market.

The same 'tin can' market rewarded Ford with great success with the Ecosport and continues with the Endy. But they failed miserably in all other launches.

So is it 'not tin can' when it comes to the E2 and 'tin can' with the others?

Or Ford by selling insipid products failed to capture the market.

Originally Posted by kiku007

Yet Ford chose to stop production. Of course, Ford can import vehicles from other countries and sell them in Brazil. That's not going to be possible for volumes in India. I have a feeling that Ford India will shut shop or move to CKD (from Thailand) and CBU mode in India and be a niche premium SUV seller.

The reason Ford would stay in India,

1) It is a huge export production hub - till 2019 Ford was the largest Auto exporter from India, exporting on average 1,60,000 units / year. It for instance sells about 2,500 Ecosports a month these days but exports something like 7,000 of these.

2) A saturated market vs one of the fastest growing markets on earth.

A combination of 1+2 would mean we will see Ford in India for a long time to come.

Originally Posted by tirumalavoleti

Absolutely, could not agree more than this.

Maruti drove the market in to Tin cans with the aid of govt with notorious taxes. Honda and Toyota seems does not want to compete. True players like Ford, VW with robust build and excellent dynamics could not sustain the game. Hyundai is sustaining with gizmos and features. Only hope is TATA with a brilliant package and sustained quality

Hey, can you clarify what these 'notorious' taxes are that gave Maruti the edge? And did these 'notorious taxes' not come int eh way of say the Ecosport sales?

[tirumalavoleti]

Originally Posted by Stribog

Hey, can you clarify what these 'notorious' taxes are that gave Maruti the edge? And did these 'notorious taxes' not come int eh way of say the Ecosport sales?

Not to hurt any manufacturer capability. Every manufacturer has the capability.

It hurts all the manufacturers and Maruti is no exception. Their amazing well built SCross could not outshine sub 4Mtrs cars due to the tax structure.

Yes the tax structure is 'notorious' for above 4 mtrs cars which is ~50% GST+Cess and add another 18% road tax which is close to ~70%. So a car manufactured for 10 lacs would attract 17 lacs from customer if no profit is added by manufacturer. Even the sub 4mtr attract ~30% GST+Cess.

And if the customer is paying the hard earned money after paying income tax of max 30%, it is equalling 100% tax for above 4 mtrs cars

So all manufacturers started low quality, light weight, less safe to get the margins on manufacturing costs.

Apologies if it is harsh, but it is truth

Simple thing: Why can't all the great vehicles out there in the world could not be launched in India with the same quality

[Stribog]

Originally Posted by tirumalavoleti

Not to hurt any manufacturer capability. Every manufacturer has the capability.

It hurts all the manufacturers and Maruti is no exception. Their amazing well built SCross could not outshine sub 4Mtrs cars due to the tax structure.

Yes the tax structure is 'notorious' for above 4 mtrs cars which is ~50% GST+Cess and add another 18% road tax which is close to ~70%. So a car manufactured for 10 lacs would attract 17 lacs from customer if no profit is added by manufacturer. Even the sub 4mtr attract ~30% GST+Cess.

And if the customer is paying the hard earned money after paying income tax of max 30%, it is equalling 100% tax for above 4 mtrs cars

So all manufacturers started low quality, light weight, less safe to get the margins on manufacturing costs.

Apologies if it is harsh, but it is truth

Simple thing: Why can't all the great vehicles out there in the world could not be launched in India with the same quality

80% of all vehicles sold in India is sub 4Mtrs.

Even Ecosport the great success is sub 4Mtrs.

So I fail to see what is it about 'notorious taxes' here that is preventing Ford from creating more success stories.

Also does MG and Kia have exceptions? Why did they succeed with the Seltos and Hector?

Why blame the OEM failures (in design or sales or service) on tax laws that are uniform for all players?

As to the 'notorious' taxes, Here is a fact for you to ruminate on, 50% of India lives on less than Rs 1,50,000 / annum (that is PER ANNUM). 92.3% of India's population lives on less than Rs 7,00,000 / annum.

So why is taxing a car (10 lakhs) that is above the reach of almost 98% of India such a bad idea?

Safety has nothing to do with the sub 4 Mtr rule btw, it is to do with Governmental regulations and that is slowly being updated to meet better safety standards.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by Stribog

The reason Ford would stay in India,

1) It is a huge export production hub - till 2019 Ford was the largest Auto exporter from India, exporting on average 1,60,000 units / year. It for instance sells about 2,500 Ecosports a month these days but exports something like 7,000 of these.

2) A saturated market vs one of the fastest growing markets on earth.

A combination of 1+2 would mean we will see Ford in India for a long time to come.

Wonder why they exported 1,60,000 units/year on average. Hhhm may be because they couldn't sell those cars in one of the fastest growing markets on earth even after trying for very many years?

Which is the saturated market btw?

Is there going to be a next generation Ecosport after all? Some markets have got the Puma replace the Ecosport.

[tirumalavoleti]

Originally Posted by Stribog

As to the 'notorious' taxes, Here is a fact for you to ruminate on, 50% of India lives on less than Rs 1,50,000 / annum (that is PER ANNUM). 92.3% of India's population lives on less than Rs 7,00,000 / annum.

This might be true. But that does not mean that India deserves low quality and unsafe cars. We could not control the usage of the car and speed once it hits the road.

In Maruti case, the SCross build quality is not replicated in spresso or swift, why? because there would not be any margins. And what component is hurting the margin? high tax of ~30%GST and 12-14% road tax.

Imagine if Polo is built like spresso and reduce the cost in the name of poor country, we would miss a wonderful car.

I repeat every manufacturer has the capability to build strong cars but they do not at the cost of the company existence with out margins

[Venkatesh]

Brazil President Jair Bolsonaro criticised Ford’s decision to pull out of Brazil, alleging the company was seeking tax breaks and subsidies to compete with other automakers

People complained about the Ford factories," Bolsonaro told supporters outside his official residence in Brasilia on Wednesday. “I’m sorry, but I will no longer keep spending your money to support their factories."

The Brazilian president has since accused Ford of trying to obtain additional subsidies to keep its Brazilian operations afloat. He said on Tuesday that the company had received nearly 20 billion reais ($3.77 billion) in assistance in recent years, without providing further details.

“The factory closed due to competition, there is no more subsidy from us," Bolsonaro said Wednesday.

Source

[chennai-indian]

Ford will be out of India soon one way or another. At least, that is what insiders are telling me. This means out of manufacturing. Ford has an extensive back office and IT operation in India and that will continue. Sad that such a nice brand will exit our market soon!!

[Sanjivvohra]

It will be a sad day when Ford leaves India, at least in the retail space.
With investment in production in India, from where they export ~160,000 units annually, it does not seem that they will exit production in India as they did in Brazil.
What I don't understand is the lack of introduction of crossovers in India (like the Escape).
Indian roads are improving rapidly and it's a matter of time before safety in a vehicle will become a significant input into a buying decision. Ford could leverage this.

[niruvrs9669]

I've been a fan of Ford endy for years. Missed out on getting a Ford endy 3.2L five years ago. The current 2.0L sport doesn't impress me. The BS6 norms also wouldn't let the upgraded bi-turbo 2.0L version launch in India ! Probably it would never be launched. What a mess.

I'm now on search for a pre worshipped/last stocks of Endy 3.2 L 2019 model. Please do PM me if you have a source. To start with my search, I was planning on calling all the Ford dealers in Bangalore/Hyderabad to check on any such available 3.2L in their stocks. If any of you have done this exercise already, please do share your views.

Also, is it any worthy idea to pursue an import from Thailand with all black leather interiors and the choicest 2.0L Bi-turbo ? I love to keep my cars stock.

[landcruiser123]

During my visit to the River Rouge (at Dearborn, MI) complex in 2018, I had a chance to see a video on how pivotal Brazil's rubber production was to Ford's success. Sharing a bit of history for all of you:
https://www.thehenryford.org/collect...r-plantations/

On October 11, 1927, when public interest in Ford’s upcoming Brazilian plantation was high, Henry Ford announced that he would embark on a tour of South America, including the site of the plantation, with Charles Lindbergh in the pilot’s famous Spirit of St. Louis. The tour never happened.
Ford looked into the possibility of producing commercial quantities of products other than rubber that were grown on the plantations to support the community of workers. These products included teak, balsa, mahogany, eucalyptus, kapok, tamarind, sisal, hemp, jute, cinnamon, ginger, coconut oil, palm, cacao tea, pineapple, citrus fruits, bananas, soy beans, and coffee.
By 1940, Belterra had 7,000 inhabitants, more than 2,000 workers (including 261 women and 60 boys), 844 houses, and wooden barracks that could accommodate 950 men.
Nicknamed “Dearborn in the Jungle,” Belterra was a model community with three major and two outlying schools to serve more than one thousand students. It also had churches, stores, a recreation building, a golf course, a library, radio stations, a power plant, a sanitary department, a water purification plant and more.
The hospitals at Fordlandia and Belterra had over 120 beds and were well-equipped with X-ray and ultraviolet-ray equipment, laboratories, pharmacies, operating rooms, hot and cold water, and dental offices.
By 1941, there were 3,651,500 rubber trees planted at Fordlandia and Belterra.

Enjoy

[techn0l0gist]

Ford needs to get more models in India - maybe move their production lines from factories they shut down and build in India - cars like the Focus, Fiesta , Transit (and variants) , and maybe sell 1 or 2 enthusiast focused versions of the Focus or Fiesta !

Also they need to take a leaf out of Maruti's book and make parts available everywhere a-la MGP stores and not make customers jump through hoops to source spares!

[dragracer567]

One important aspect we've glossed over is the history of Ford in Brazil. Ford has been in the country for a century and their exit from countries like Brazil and Australia says a lot about the shifting of production lines of cars in general either closer to home markets (Mexico, Southern USA, Eastern Europe) or to Asia where the economies of scale and high tariffs justify local production.

Here is the story of Fordlandia - the incredible utopia built by Henry Ford deep in the Brazilian amazon and how it failed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C7t6zdvUWo

[volkman10]

Ford scraps the remaining inventory of EcoSport and Ka.

Video shows a long line of bodywork that will be completely crumpled and will follow for recycling . They will be sold as scrap, per kilo basis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONbX...el=QuatroRodas

[RavSam]

Originally Posted by volkman10

Ford scraps the remaining inventory of EcoSport and Ka.

Wow! This is so painful to watch. Like live murder scene of slaves or something similar.

Why did they have to do it like this?