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Old 8th July 2021, 23:57   #1
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VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ng-2021-07-08/

Quote /

The European Commission fined German carmakers Volkswagen and BMW a total of 875 million euros ($1 billion) on Thursday for colluding to curb the use of emissions cleaning technology they had developed.


The case, separate to the so-called 'Dieselgate' scandal over software designed to cheat on vehicle emissions tests, sets a precedent by extending the application of European competition law to technical-level talks between industry players.

In this case, talks held a decade ago centred on design standards for AdBlue, an additive used to cleanse nitrogen oxide from the exhaust gases produced by diesel-powered cars.

End quote /

The damage these actions caused to earth via global warming is far above the paltry fine but its a start.
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Old 9th July 2021, 13:35   #2
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

Another example of Over Engineered German Cars that close with a 'Thud' and wisp of smoke

But I think this will not effect their customer base as long as the car handles well, has a German badge at the front and after sales is a pain and expensive

“The five car manufacturers Daimler, BMW, Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche possessed the technology to reduce harmful emissions beyond what was legally required under EU emission standards,” the EU’s executive branch wrote in a statement. “But they avoided to compete on using this technology’s full potential to clean better than what is required by law. So today’s decision is about how legitimate technical cooperation went wrong. And we do not tolerate it when companies collude.”

The Volkswagen Group, which has a documented history of lying about its compliance emissions regulations at this point, said in a statement that the “contents of the talks were never implemented and customers were therefore never harmed” and said that bigger AdBlue tanks were eventually used.

Source: https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/8/22...udi-porsche-eu

Hope Tesla puts them out of their misery soon.

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Last edited by Foxbat : 9th July 2021 at 13:43.
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Old 9th July 2021, 14:22   #3
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

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Originally Posted by Foxbat View Post
“The five car manufacturers Daimler, BMW, Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche possessed the technology to reduce harmful emissions beyond what was legally required under EU emission standards,”
Interesting, what next?

I am sure they may also possess technology to make safer cars beyond what it legally required.

I hope VW takes this decision to court as mentioned in the article.
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Old 9th July 2021, 14:57   #4
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

Elon lovers would be here soon, oh wait! Somebody already mentioned Tesla. I somehow expected this before even opening the thread. IMO car manufacturers nowadays are getting too much beating especially regarding environmental concerns because some jokers believe that only cars emit CO2 and are the root cause of pollution. Of course illegal factories, large scale burning of crops and improper treatment of harmful gases before releasing into the atmosphere is necessary for growth 🤡.

To the Tesla lovers, just Google about the lithium ion mining required for your favourite futuristic cars and the condition of thousands of African kids who work in the process.
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Old 9th July 2021, 17:57   #5
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

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Originally Posted by Lowflyer23 View Post
Elon lovers would be here soon, oh wait! Somebody already mentioned Tesla. I somehow expected this before even opening the thread. IMO car manufacturers nowadays are getting too much beating especially regarding environmental concerns because some jokers believe that only cars emit CO2 and are the root cause of pollution. Of course illegal factories, large scale burning of crops and improper treatment of harmful gases before releasing into the atmosphere is necessary for growth 🤡.

To the Tesla lovers, just Google about the lithium ion mining required for your favourite futuristic cars and the condition of thousands of African kids who work in the process.
So you condone the outright manipulation of data (diesel gate), the forming of cartels to suppress emission levels because of what exactly?
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Old 9th July 2021, 18:36   #6
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

Here is what I gather (could be wrong).

These car companies could make an engine that is cleaner than what is legally required for sale and so they should pay a fine - What??. EU is full of such people who are going to run these countries to the ground in the name of the climate change, I wish them good luck.

I guess we should now fine Kodak for being the meme that they are.

Last edited by Aditya : 9th July 2021 at 21:52. Reason: Words replaced
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Old 9th July 2021, 18:44   #7
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

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Originally Posted by Kosfactor View Post
Here is what I gather (could be wrong).

These car companies could make an engine that is cleaner than what is legally required for sale and so they should pay a fine - What??. EU is full of these idiots .
Well, you probably should read the article properly before calling anybody an idiot. Or you stand a good chance of being seen as one yourself.

Each company is fully entitled not to pursue particular technological advancements. However, in this case it was not the individual companies making that call, but they actively sought each other out and agreed not too.

They are fined for making joint agreements on not competing. Which is detrimental to proper market operation, hurts consumer interest and is therefor illegal.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 9th July 2021 at 18:48.
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Old 9th July 2021, 18:51   #8
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

Well something is better than nothing. Now only if they did the same against planned obsolescence of electronics or withholding of IPs and tech that can give much bigger benefit.
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Old 9th July 2021, 18:53   #9
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

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They are fined for making agreements on not competing. Which is detrimental to proper market operation, hurts consumer interest and is therefor illegal.
Laws themselves reflect the nature of people who made them. You are smart enough to know the rest.

If Maruti and Hyundai decides they will not make cars with more than 2 airbags because they comply with the countries laws - you think the customer who wants to buy a car with 6 airbags will be left without a choice? Nope, they can buy another brand.
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Old 9th July 2021, 19:17   #10
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

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Originally Posted by Kosfactor View Post
Laws themselves reflect the nature of people who made them. You are smart enough to know the rest.
I think you should understand the situation before passing your judgement.

Individual companies are free to withhold features. However, colluding with other companies using written agreements not to give more features, that is illegal. That is the very definition of cartel, a concept that is illegal in most business environment.

If Maruti and Hyundai have a written agreement not to give more than 2 airbags, then they would be in violation of Competition Act 2002.

Last edited by Samurai : 9th July 2021 at 19:25.
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Old 9th July 2021, 20:43   #11
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

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Originally Posted by Kosfactor View Post
Laws themselves reflect the nature of people who made them. You are smart enough to know the rest.
.
No clue what you mean or refer to. I don’t consider myself particular smart. But whatever the topic I try to dig in and make some sense of it.

Laws against kartel seem like a good thing to me.

There have been quite a few studies conducted over the last two decade in western countries. There are some difference in detailled outcome. But they all point out in the same direction.

Anti kartel laws are effective!

Interestingly they also have a positive impact on consumer spending. To the effect that the cost to implement and exercise these laws is easily compensated. (E.g. the VAT on the extra consumer spending outweighs the cost for the additional bureaucracy by a very large margin.

Based on your answer I am not convinced you have really understood what this is all about. Maybe I am wrong, as I mentioned, I’m not that smart. Please check Samurai answer as well.

My main gripe is that on these sort of offended the company should not be fined, but the CEO and other executives need to be held accountable. They have allowed their organisation to willingly and knowingly break the law. If you or I would do that, for a whole lot less, they would throw us in jail.

Also, their supervisory board members should be facing the consequences.

My solution: when companies knowingly break such important law the whole C level and their supervisory board needs to be fined and possible imprisoned.

You have to get rid of the rot from within. Fining companies does not do much, it doesn’t change their basic attitude or culture.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 9th July 2021 at 20:45.
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Old 9th July 2021, 21:13   #12
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
They are fined for making joint agreements on not competing. Which is detrimental to proper market operation, hurts consumer interest and is therefor illegal.
Jeroen
I agree with Jeroen in general. What he says is part of standard recurrent training for employees for most well run corporates including where I work. But has it gone too far in this case?. In several cases, industries collaborate and establish standards for products. This may be for interoperability of parts (ex. A communication standard for a display unit to receive information from ECU) so that any display built to that standard will work with any ECU that complies. This is most common in aviation where RTCA makes several standards for aerospace products. The standards are made by a working group drawn from all leading companies that have products in that area. As per my understanding, the standards are made as the minimum requirements for that product to perform it's intended function (MOPS) or interface standards for it to be interoperable with other products. I would think that it would be a very wrong precedent and ultimately legally invalid if this is interpreted as collusion to non compete.
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Old 9th July 2021, 21:25   #13
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

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Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
I agree with Jeroen in general. What he says is part of standard recurrent training for employees for most well run corporates including where I work. But has it gone too far in this case?. In several cases, industries collaborate and establish standards for products. This may be for interoperability of parts (ex. A communication standard for a display unit to receive information from ECU) so that any display built to that standard will work with any ECU that complies. This is most common in aviation where RTCA makes several standards for aerospace products. The standards are made by a working group drawn from all leading companies that have products in that area. As per my understanding, the standards are made as the minimum requirements for that product to perform it's intended function (MOPS) or interface standards for it to be interoperable with other products. I would think that it would be a very wrong precedent and ultimately legally invalid if this is interpreted as collusion to non compete.
Good point.
Many industries rely on standardisation. E.g.my industry Telecom. 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G etc and a host of other parts in Telecommunications rely on joint industrial agreements on adhering to standards.

Without going into the details there are some fundamental difference between these sort of collaboration and kartel. The first being out in the open, well advertised, open to anyone. Also, very often legislators themselves might be involved. The outcome tends to produce a certain level playing field and individual companies can still provide unique features, or even different ways of implementing the standards.

Kartel agreements are always “under the table”, with a few people participating. It is always done by people who know full well they are breaking the law. That’s why they try to hush it up. The benefits are only for the, few, participating companies and involvement is restricted, as opposed to open to everybody. It only benefits those who are participating in it and usually hurts other competitors and consumers alike.

Standardisation works is done in broad daylight, for the benefit of all, including the end-user and or consumer. Kartel are done below the radar to benefit a few manufacturers and are always detrimental to the consumer.

Jeroen
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Old 10th July 2021, 13:52   #14
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

That fine amount seems like a small slap on the wrist given that it’s around 0.2% of their annual revenue.

VW group also has an illustrious history of setting up overseas manufacturing plants where human labour exploitation is above normal (including in Uighur).
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Old 12th July 2021, 09:49   #15
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Re: VW and BMW fined $1 billion for running what the EU terms an "emissions cartel"

If I were to post this, long story short.

They had the Tech or possessed it for all these years but did not wanted to implement it. So what we are getting today - BS6 or Euro6 is something that could have been implemented long like like 4 or 5 years ago or may be even earlier.
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