[Mayavi]

Beating a dead horse, this if from another forum about Consumer Reports:

I can't BELIEVE that this is the tool they use to make/break car makers. This is nuts. The only place they make any distinction between big and little repairs is "major engine" and "major transmission" repairs. A busted lighter is the same as a major electrical malfunction! They give you about 6 catagories to report problems in: y/n - and then break them each down into about 5 catagories. It takes about 2 minutes for 2 cars. That's it.

That point about Electrical system is so true. Cars like BMW and Merc have many Gizmos in them and it takes a dealer to fix even minor issue and reduces their reliability ratings.

[goldie_malhotra]

Originally Posted by merve_extreme

obvisouly u dont,because people never give credit to the ones who take the risk,someone has to go first,
If inovation was not there people would still be living in a cave eating grass.the people who inovate suffer the most problems from the inovations,because no one know what the problems will be.

Sure we do - but at who's cost!!

There are few buyers in the market who are willing to put in their money for un-tested and un-proven technology, just to be the first to try it out.
But the bulk still view cars as a transportation medium, and are not very willing to take risks.

I hope all these so-called technological innovations come with a HUGE disclaimer that you are buying un-tested and un-proven stuff - buy it at your own risk.

[theMAG]

Can any modern car from an established manufacturer today be so unreliable as to render it unusable?

[merve_extreme]

Originally Posted by goldie_malhotra

Sure we do - but at who's cost!!

There are few buyers in the market who are willing to put in their money for un-tested and un-proven technology, just to be the first to try it out.
But the bulk still view cars as a transportation medium, and are not very willing to take risks.

I hope all these so-called technological innovations come with a HUGE disclaimer that you are buying un-tested and un-proven stuff - buy it at your own risk.

there are many.
the w203 C class was the best selling mercedes ever.the old M-class was the best seller until the X5 came.the S-class is the best selling car in its class for as along as it has existed.

It is not that the malfunctions are so serious that they cause accidents or any major problems.its like small stuff like ur display will go blank or the airbag light may turn on etc etc,not a serious problem that needs disclamer, like u press on the brake and the car accelerates.

The most serious issue was the failure of the SBC on the E-class,but even in such a case the car could still be halted using the redundat hydraulic brake system that was designed as an emergency measure.

[1100D]

This thread is really hot.

The jap brands are bulk brands. Which are expected to be bought in large numbers by the general public at large and be happy/content with them. The so-called low-reliability brands are not for them.

BTW How do the wannabe, so called upmarket Jap-brands rate in terms of number of vehicles sold with respect to their corresponding models from the teutons.

Please be aware that I am not asking for total numbers, cos these wannabe brands have some models which are just loaded-rebranded versions of their bulk selling brand's models. Such models dont even have low enough counterparts in the German stables.

[rahul_intlad]

hence i suggest u do the research and get back to us with the invoations in automotive technology of the truely great Toyota Motor corp and if there are none to be found than the ones mentioned by me then we can say companies like Toyota copy technology.

The World's Most Innovative Companies[2007]:

APPLE
GOOGLE
TOYOTA MOTOR
GENERAL ELECTRIC
MICROSOFT
PROCTER & GAMBLE
3M
WALT DISNEY CO.
IBM
SONY

Source:
The World's 50 Most Innovative Companies Interactive Scoreboard

[merve_extreme]

Originally Posted by rahul_intlad

The World's Most Innovative Companies[2007]:

APPLE
GOOGLE
TOYOTA MOTOR
GENERAL ELECTRIC
MICROSOFT
PROCTER & GAMBLE
3M
WALT DISNEY CO.
IBM
SONY

Source:
The World's 50 Most Innovative Companies Interactive Scoreboard

arree boss he had posted the same thing.this dosent list even one inovation and what is 2007 was the car created in 2007,i dont want most inovations in 2007(if a company launches 5 cars in 07 then they will ofcourse have more inovations than the one who dosent even launch 1).Tell me the inovations from 1886 to 2007 in automobiles by Toyota Motor Co.

also i suggest you read that inovation survey methods that they have described at the bottom of the link.they asking people about opinions on who has more inovations.i thought inovations were documented facts.also let me tell u these lists are generalized lists,these are not technology inovation lists.

[vasudeva]

This is public information as can be seen from ACEA.

Statistics | ACEA

The Mercedes-Benz car group, which has just dumped Chrysler, is also battling a dramatic sales decline in Germany. This is due to market sluggishness, but mainly due to periods of lousy quality. Mercedes has now told its dealers to work harder at selling dealer demos, to push vehicles already in inventory and to take advantage of the factory's marketing promotions.

Dealers say the problem is that Mercedes has screwed up the market for its cars by buying too much business with rebates. That sounds a lot like the issues facing Chrysler in the US.

Mercedes Benz is also now copying the Toyota's Kanban or JIT concept at its new US plants. This was initiated in 2005 when the company's Alabama, US plant was in the final stages of a US$600 million expansion to add production of the R and GL classes alongside the M class.
Mercedes is also cutting away at lead times at the Alabama plant by working with its 30-plus Tier 1 suppliers in the state to extend its supply-to-line concept.

With Toyota's success, the US auto press now has stopped using The Big 3 or the Detroit 3, and some such as Automotive News and J D Power now refer to as

``The Big Red One and the 3 little pigs'.

In 2006, MB sold 178771 cars in the US, while Lexus sold 183027. Here are the numbers by models: first figure is 2005 and 2nd is 2006.



Mercedes

C Class 60658 50187
CL 1320 1312
CLK 18227 16415
CLS 14835 10763
E 50383 50195
5 Class 16036 30886
SL 10080 8462
SLK 11278 10410
SLR 200 141
183017 178771
Lexus
ES 330/350 67577 75987
GS 350 27807 23665
GS 430 5650 1341
GS 450H 0 2384
IS 250/350 15789 54267
LS 430/460 26043 19546
SC 430 8360 5847
151226 183037

The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has reported that Toyota has now developed the world's first eight-speed automatic transmission (AA80E) for front-engine, rear- drive passenger cars. The AA80E developed for high-torque engines raises the level of power performance and fuel efficiency. To meet the size requirements needed for mounting in a passenger car application, an 8-speed geartrain, torque converter, transmission case and hydraulic control device were all newly-developed. Furthermore, the AA80E has benefited from technical developments to achieve an extremely high level of quietness and shifting performance.

At the SAE World Congress, automakers and technologists agreed that hybrid vehicles will be the core automotive development of the 21st century. They said that internal-combustion-only cars represent a century-long side step on the development path of the automobile. Looking to 2030 and beyond, automakers recognize the pressure on fossil fuels and the need to blend technology to combat global warming.

Buoyed by success of Toyota's hybrids, even laggards in hybrid such as BMW, DaimlerChrysler and General Motors are working on a common hybrid powertrain.

Andreas Truckenbrodt, DaimlerChrysler executive director of hybrid powertrain programs, said "We consider hybrids to be the backbone of all our future vehicles.

Millward Brown annually ranks global brands. It interviews more than 1 million consumers. Starting last year, it also assigned a monetary value to individual brands that projects the future revenue the brand itself could deliver to its owner. To do that, Millward Brown first measures last year's revenue and computes what share came from the branded business unit. Then it calculates what the brand itself contributed. For example, if an owner says 'I like BMW's quality,' that's brand-related. " But if he says, 'the dealership is close to my home,' that doesn't count." Thus, the top 10 auto brands by future revenue added are:


value % chg
($billion)
1. Toyota 33.4 10.7
2. BMW 25.8 8.1
3. Mercedes 17.8 0.1
4. Honda 15.5 7.4
5. Porsche 13.4 11.2
6. Ford 12.6 -8.8
7. Chevrolet 11.2 -10.2
8. Nissan 11.2 2.5
9. VW 7.0 3.5
10. Lexus 5.4 7.3

I have already posted Toyota and MB sales in the US and provided ACEA links to Europe sales. During 2007, Toyota's double-digit sales growth in Europe is coming at the expense of Europe's established brands. During Jan-Mar 2007, Toyota sales, not including Lexus, were up 12.9% to 251288 units, with market share at 6%. By comparison, losers were Volkswagen, Renault and Peugeot.
Toyota's growth is coming from two core models: the Yaris small car and the Aygo minicar. In 2006, Yaris sales increased 14% to 238334 units. The Aygo was the second-best seller in the minicar segment, behind the Fiat Panda.
Europe's Jan-Mar 2007 top 10, by market share

2007 2006

1. VW 9.5 10.0
2. Opel/Vauxhall 8.7 8.6
3. Ford 8.6 8.5
4. Renault 7.5 8.4
5. Peugeot 7.2 7.3
6. Fiat 6.4 6.0
7. Citroen 6.1 6.1
8. Toyota 6.0 5.3
9. Mercedes 4.3 4.4
10. BMW 3.9 4.1

[merve_extreme]

A brilliant attempt in trying to increase post count(it wont help u though).keep it up 8(and increasing)posts to convey nothing.Mods time to take notice.

keep trying desperately hard to show market share of a Luxury car maker compared to a volume mainstream manufacturer

1)Sales have nothing to do with technology nor with reliability
2)Lexus always sells more cars in the US,no one denys that
3)I have myself said lexus developed the first 8-sp auto so whats ur point.
4)For the last time,JIT is not an automotive technology and has nothing
to do with reliability,it only increases your production effeciency.

here is somethig for you to drool about:
PickupTruck.Com - New Toyota Tundra Hit With Camshaft Failures

ps:your links dont work and i'm done arguing with you,not a single meaningful information.

[vasudeva]

The authentic site (which has actual and not speculative data) is NHTSA, which has no mention of recalls of Tundra as at present. For more diligent research based members, the site is Office of defects Investigations at NHTSA or type US RECALLS IN GOOGLE and proceed. It has recalls for all years and for all cars. Happy research for more authentic info. It would be great if people would quote some authoritative sources such as ACEA, JD POWER, SAE, AUTOMOTIVE NEWS, INDUSTRYWEEK, BUSINESSWEEK, NHTSA, WARD, JATO, and not some opinions.

[vasudeva]

1)Sales have nothing to do with technology nor with reliability

Wow, that is something for all students of marketing to learn. Customers must be a big fool to choose Lexus or Toyota over a MB. I had learnt in marketing that customers vote for your products with their wallets, and growing sales are the biggest barometer of progress and survival of the company. Long term sales figure for Toyota, Lexus, MB, BMW, GM, Ford, etc are available to a diligent researcher, and any person with an understanding of maths can infer the rise of Toyota/Honda and the decline of traditional bastions of auto manfg. As the sales record and growth of various companies in all products (not just auto) proves, for all products, the first rule of success for any success is to know that customers want a reliable, trouble free product that may not be next hot thing. End of story.

[aah78]

Originally Posted by merve_extreme

how many Mercedes or BMW's do you see stranded on the side of the road or have exploding engines.

a lot of them actually. it's a pretty common site to have all sorts of high-speed, expensive exotic cars parked by the side of the road awaiting assistance while a beat-up old Ford LTD driven by a timid octanegerian, or a Honda Accord from the mid-90's with more than 2,00,000 miles cruises silently past . hell, i should know - i've been there!

electronics keep failing all the time but the engines aren't rock-solid. the electronic failure leads to most engine failures.

Originally Posted by merve_extreme

a common Honda dosent have 1/10th of the electronic tech that is crammed into a Mercedes or a BMW,same for toyota.most Japanese car makers have cars that sit on the lower end of the market spectrum and hene have less electronics and are more reliable and easy to maintain.
now you can take Lexus,the largest selling lexus are ES and RX and both are based on toyota Camry and Harrier respectively(low-middle end cars in most of the world).the largest selling BMW 3 and Mercedes C are a class above,crammed with more tech than the average spec camry.

and mind u its the electronics(which mercedes etc dont manufacture) that fail the most and not mechanical parts.

ever seen one of the newer Lexus's or Acura's? they're packed to the brim with up-to-date technology. yet, their failure rates are much lower compared to the european contenders. why should a Mercedes or a BMW that costs double the price of a Lexus or triple the price of an Acura be filled with cheaper quality electronics which are prone to failing?

while we all love Mercedes and BMW - they're not exactly the best anymore.

speaking from personal experience let me show you a comparison of a few cars - 1 that I drive, and few others driven by family/friends.
2002 BMW 5-series - @90,000 miles - most unreliable!
1999 BMW 7-series - @90,000 miles - very unreliable!
2001 BMW 7-series - @1,17,000 miles - unreliable!
late 1990's Acura TL 3.2S - @70,000 miles - very reliable!
2000 Lexus RX330 - @2,00,000 miles - no problems at all yet! - no exaggeration here.

[Mayavi]

2002 - 2006 C-class - STAY AWAY!

To those who keep harping on the point that innovation ranks higher than sales, let me ask a questions. If these car makers were so innovative, can't they come up with things that don't break down easily?

To Merve_Extreme: Agreed Mercedez benz has most of Automotive firsts, but till the early 90's they also used to rank very high on reliabilty. Every one here and elsewhere agree that merc cars were built like tanks and do not give too many problems. Its only in the late 90's that their reliability went down the drain. What changed? Weren't they innovative pre-90's? Agreed, more electroncis have been put in the car which are prone to problems but then so do most other high end car makers. Lexus and Acura reliability is increasing with every passing year even though their designs are getting more complex. Merc on the other hand is going down. Why?

[v1p3r]

It would be nice if the Merc fans who don't own Mercs would answer this: would you rather have a car whose maker invents the latest technologies, and have it break down ever so often, or sometimes? Or would you rather have a car which is just as technologically advanced, utterly reliable, and cheaper?

[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

It would be nice if the Merc fans who don't own Mercs would answer this: would you rather have a car whose maker invents the latest technologies, and have it break down ever so often, or sometimes? Or would you rather have a car which is just as technologically advanced, utterly reliable, and cheaper?

I agree on that. Most customers (including myself) are wowed by new tech and innovations. Infact, to grow, all companies in all industries must innovate. But customers want both innovation, technology, combined with a reliable product. What is the point of having the latest gizmos and electronics if they leave you stranded on a highway in the middle of nowhere and your purse considerably lighter. That being said, carmakers such as Toyota, Lexus, and Honda/Acura and Nissan/Infiniti are not fools (as their growing sales suggest) to give innovation and gizmos the go by. It is just that they are more likely than Europeans to give gizmos in a car that run properly and the car is less likely to break down. The fact is that all cars can run for more than 25 yrs as the old beat up Ambys and Fiats testify. What is not noted is how much cost in maintenance and replacements has gone into keeping them running for decades. Various surveys and all sorts of data (which is often available for free on the web) have conclusively proved that customers experience lesser troubles and cost per mile in Japanese (particularly Toyota and Honda) cars than in European and American cars. Sales figures may not be important to some people with some new marketing theory, but higher sales and market shares for Toyota and Honda in stagnant and declining markets prove that they make what customers want, and customers are more confident that their money is not going down the drain. Consider this, in a tightening economic enviro. that the developed nations are facing, would not customers want an even more reliable product. But the amazing thing is that Toyota, Lexus and Honda have grown in a period (1991-2000, and 2002-06) of high economic growth in developed countries. That would mean that customers may willing to splurge more for gizmos at the cost of reliability. But no, gizmos are fine but not at the cost of reliability.