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Old 15th September 2021, 12:42   #16
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
No, I do not worship at the altar of Elon Musk, nor am I a Tesla fan. I am just being objective. Feel free to disagree (according to some, EV advocates are automatically ICE haters).
True, I love cars, irrespective of the drivetrains, ICE or EVs, I also love this planet and all the animals sharing this world. Some 6 years back I started understanding EVs, found they are the sensible thing to do for the planet, the animals and forests I love so much. I still read about ICE engine working more than EVs, that's my hobby. People here think loving ICE cars mean hating EVs.

You did not attack anyone in your arguments, instead of having counter arguments, people start attacks, name calling, stereotyping.

Last edited by vb-san : 15th September 2021 at 13:23. Reason: Thread cleaned up. Thank you!
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Old 15th September 2021, 13:25   #17
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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... people start attacks, name calling, stereotyping.
Yup, and that's to be expected, it's called psychological reactance. But then some people turn zealots and stop being objective when their world view is threatened.

Most of the people opposed to EVs have not driven one. One drive and they will change their tune. I have driven both the Kona and the Nexon EV and am waiting for the tech to mature a little more before I get one. EVs are better in every conceivable way (expect time to refuel and that's gonna change as tech progresses) - better handling, superb acceleration and torque, better NVH, lower maintenance etc.

I couldn't stop smiling the first time I floored the Kona. EVs are that good.

Last edited by Aditya : 15th September 2021 at 21:13. Reason: Religious, political comment deleted
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Old 15th September 2021, 13:36   #18
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
Thanks for sharing these analysis articles. IMHO, eFuels are just starting out in the market. Obviously there will be some Hype. BEV tech also has Hype.

I'm happy that many technologies to solve pollution in mobility are being explored and monies invested.

I suggest taking all data from any source, on emerging technologies with a pinch of salt. With changing technology investments, and innovations, these can change quickly. It is though true that at this point in time, eFuel is behind the curve.
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Last edited by lsjey : 15th September 2021 at 13:37.
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Old 15th September 2021, 14:27   #19
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

At the outset this seems like a waste of lot of energy to generate efuel and price wise it is not comparable to fossil fuels due to the latter's sheer scale of production and industry support. But at a superficial level, using efuel, we can retain our ICE cars longer and not contribute to any additional carbon-dioxide emissions , since efuel was generated from the carbon-dioxide trapped from atmosphere, which I see as a win-win compared to depending 100% on fossil fuels.

Now, Porsche did not do this out of the goodness of their heart. They may have done it to retain their operations in Germany or increase revenue streams just like an profit-oriented investor driven BEV auto-manufacturers but how does it matter as long as it better than completely relying on Fossil fuels. With scale they may become cost-effective. There are pros and cons to all ICE replacements in the market at the moment:
- eFuel (low thermal efficiency and high mechanical losses),
- EVs (Cobalt, Nickel, Lithium, Neodymium mining and recycling of Li based batteries),
- Hydrogen (safety, storage in cars, low mileage and less power at similar displacement, current production based on cracking of methane)
- Solar (impractical)

Until near 100% green technologies like sustainable batteries, hydrogen production from renewables pick up, any of the top two options are better in my limited opinion.
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Old 15th September 2021, 15:25   #20
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Believe it or not. The weirdest thing just happened.
Someone tried to force their way into my T-BHP account causing my account to be locked out. The hacker's IP seems to be from Brussels, Belgium.

Did I accidentally reveal the German's plans? or did I rub someone the wrong way on this forum. Inputs welcome.

Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile-1.jpg
Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile-2.png

If I stop posting then may be it was the Ze Germans and their hitman got me.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:09   #21
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
I wonder if Porsche thinks they can continue to market ICE vehicles as status symbols like what happened to mechanical watches post the quartz revolution.

The whole idea of wasting energy and precious fresh water to create methanol is quite disgusting. The entire chain of energy transformation from the wind turbine to the final combustion in the ICE wastes more than 90% of the energy. Disgusting!
I thought the problem everyone had is Co2 emissions.
I don't know if you know this, but we do a lot of activity that in the minds of some are "complete waste of energy". Thank god most of us don't live in a world dictated by whims and fantasies of some people who think they have a monopoly on energy usage.
So what if it uses a lot of energy to make e fuel? So what if it costs more than ordinary petrol? If it's carbon neutral, it's carbon neutral. I doubt people who can afford 911s are going to be too bothered about fuel bills.
And as far as I know, you haven't backed up your claim of all this being a "Scam" here with an iota of proof or reason. Just that Porsche is German and Germans like to make money or something.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:26   #22
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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Originally Posted by nakul0888 View Post
I thought the problem everyone had is Co2 emissions.
I don't know if you know this, but we do a lot of activity that in the minds of some are "complete waste of energy". Thank god most of us don't live in a world dictated by whims and fantasies of some people who think they have a monopoly on energy usage.
So what if it uses a lot of energy to make e fuel? So what if it costs more than ordinary petrol? If it's carbon neutral, it's carbon neutral. I doubt people who can afford 911s are going to be too bothered about fuel bills.
And as far as I know, you haven't backed up your claim of all this being a "Scam" here with an iota of proof or reason. Just that Porsche is German and Germans like to make money or something.

I agree. They call themselves objective while "cherry-picking" their own sources. Words used have been "Sham. Plain and Simple", "scammer", "disgusting" while agreeing to the fact that "I don't need to get this innovation". Its just assumed that this technology is utterly disgusting in the nascent stages but Na+ batteries are the future.
I understand that we can have difference of opinion and I am not even saying anything against BEV revolution, but why such bitterness to a new technology? Based on incomplete information. You are not interested in eFuels and you don't like it. Fair and Square and that's why you don't want to read about it as well. Fair and square. I am not complaining. Just that it does not warrant a rant and a conspiracy either.

To add one more point, not everything is just driven by economics or technology alone. Not everything follows the economic path. Politics and Policy is a very important part (along with relevant subsidies to make that happen).
Remember TECOP (Technical Economic Commercial Organizational Politico Societal) factors when looking at the possible success of a new technology.

Every company "especially in europe and more so in Germany, due to the stringent policy driven green targets" are bound to reduce the carbon footprint. Green forestation is unfortunately only part of it, where huge land mass's are involved, which may not be available in Germany anymore (They have forested everything very nicely already). Further they need to adhere to policies based on RED II (Renewable Energy Directive II) to be complaint.

Norway is actually leading by far and already has pretty matured initiatives in the space. (I know a complaint will come that Sunfire is involved and its a German company )
https://www.norsk-e-fuel.com/en/
https://nordicelectrofuel.no/
Both of which are not methanol based, but Fischer-Tropsch based and can even give you lubricants or any other petrochemical feedstock. Not to mention the cleanness of these efuels as they are fully synthetic (Sulphur or other emissions).

I say again. Not everything is Black and White and there is good and bad in everything and it depends on how and where we use what.
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Old 16th September 2021, 14:28   #23
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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I say again. Not everything is Black and White and there is good and bad in everything and it depends on how and where we use what.
I haven't understood much about these efuels, I will reserve my opinion until I know the process of making efuels. I think this is going to be a costly fuel, as this requires lots of electricity. Also, I do not think efuels will be produced at major scale, as before this tech matures EVs will be at their peak sales with many countries banning ICE car sales. Not sure if the efuels help us in other sectors as aviation & shipping.

The below statement from Porsche got me thinking, if it is on the same level as an electric car and people are ready to pay the price, I have nothing to complain.

"At full scale, we expect a reduction in the CO2 impact of around 85%. If you consider well-to-wheel, where we have to transport fuel, we have a global supply chain, everything around that - you have efficiency across the whole process. In a well-to-wheel consideration, it is on the same level as an electric car."
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Old 16th September 2021, 14:41   #24
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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Originally Posted by xrules View Post
Both of which are not methanol based, but Fischer-Tropsch based and can even give you lubricants or any other petrochemical feedstock. Not to mention the cleanness of these efuels as they are fully synthetic (Sulphur or other emissions).
So there are multiple companies working on eFuel! Thanks for sharing. This is good news! We have multiple choices in having a good carbon-neutral mobility solution. IMO all these technologies, Hydrogen fuel cell, EVs and eFuel can co-exist for various needs.

Regards,
lsjey

Last edited by aah78 : 18th September 2021 at 18:12. Reason: Quote trimmed. Please quote relevant sections only. Thanks!
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Old 16th September 2021, 14:58   #25
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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Originally Posted by lsjey View Post
So there are multiple companies working on eFuel! Thanks for sharing. This is good news! We have multiple choices in having a good carbon-neutral mobility solution. IMO all these technologies, Hydrogen fuel cell, EVs and eFuel can co-exist for various needs.
Indeed. There are several inititatives. Just that Porsche "being Porsche" gets into the headlines :-). Here is a not-too-exhaustive list for those who find it interesting.

Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile-screenshot-20210916-2.55.26-pm.png

Last edited by aah78 : 18th September 2021 at 18:12. Reason: Quote trimmed. Please quote relevant sections only. Picture inserted in-line.
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Old 16th September 2021, 17:26   #26
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
"At full scale, we expect a reduction in the CO2 impact of around 85%. If you consider well-to-wheel, where we have to transport fuel, we have a global supply chain, everything around that - you have efficiency across the whole process. In a well-to-wheel consideration, it is on the same level as an electric car."
Yes. You are right. This tech is mainly for other sectors IMHO. However for some who really want fun performance ICE cars can use this expensive fuel. Although it may be 2-3 times more expensive than fossil counterpart, for that small segment of people it may not make much difference. Most studies indicate that its mainly for shipping and aviation decarbonisation, which means that flying may be get expensive as operators will be forced to use X% of such synthetic eFuels. For personal cars, we may be having more of BEV, H2 or something else ;-).

For your last statement on Wells to Wheel. That's the fun part right :-). You burn fuel and make CO2 and take that CO2 and make it into fuel again. Keeping it cyclic (obviously adding losses).

Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile-screenshot-20210916-5.17.53-pm.png

Last edited by aah78 : 18th September 2021 at 18:11. Reason: Quote trimmed. Image inserted in-line.
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Old 17th September 2021, 22:48   #27
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Nice video on synthetic fuels, the current prices are 38$/ltr or ~₹2850/ltr. We will not see this fuel unless the prices fall to the current petrol prices. Offcourse as a F1 fan, I would like to see the synthetic fuel used for motorsports.

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Old 18th September 2021, 00:38   #28
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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Nice video on synthetic fuels, the current prices are 38$/ltr or ~₹2850/ltr. We will not see this fuel unless the prices fall to the current petrol prices. Offcourse as a F1 fan, I would like to see the synthetic fuel used for motorsports.
Awesome!. Now you know some some real pitfalls that may lead to the failure of eFuels for road transport. Based on some first-hand expertise in both these fields, I can say a few things. 1. Synthetic fuels cost is majorly linked to the cost of green electricity and the projected cost of synthetic fuels is 3 time the fossil (~ 300 rs/litre) in about a decade. A decade looks long, but thats how much time typically technologies take to evolve to some maturity. Now this is projected so we can happily park it for a future discussion, but yes they are expensive. Secondly eFuels will show up in motorsports in some way, but motorsports fuels are designed fuels with specific components to comply with the FIA regulations. But these methanol derived eFuels will not show performance as needed by fuels in motorsports (at least that is what I think). However, for example at-least 10% bio-ethanol is mandated by FIA for the next season (increasing from currently mandated 5.75%) and every team will have to comply, they may show up forcefully on the track some-day based on FIA guidelines :-).
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Old 18th September 2021, 16:27   #29
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Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

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Originally Posted by ZenMaster View Post
It's much better to directly put the electricity into a battery and drive the car that way.
Well neither does it in electric cars. Lithium mining and all the manufacturing processes for car batteries are WAY more polluting than what people think. In the end, the electric car revolution will leave us in the same place at best. There is a chance of it making things worse too. In conclusion, I do love electric cars but they aren't anywhere near being "green"

Last edited by aah78 : 18th September 2021 at 18:10. Reason: Quote trimmed. Please quote relevant sections only. Thanks!
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