Team-BHP > The International Automotive Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 13th September 2021, 17:56   #1
BHPian
 
RahulNagaraj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 503
Thanked: 5,251 Times
Default Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Porsche has partnered with Siemens Energy and a number of other international companies to build an industrial plant for the production of 'near CO2-neutral fuel'. The new plant will be located in Chile, with construction work for the same having already begun.

Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile-porscheefuelplantchile.jpg

The new facility will be the world's first integrated commercial plant for producing near CO2-neutral fuel. A pilot plant is already being built in Chilean Patagonia, which is expected to produce an initial capacity of 1,30,000 litres of eFuel by 2022. This will then be expanded in two stages, increasing to 55 million litres in 2024 and 550 million litres in 2026.

The eFuel produced at the industrial plant will be used in Porsche's very own combustion engine vehicle line-up. The first model to use the eFuel manufactured in Chile will be the Porsche Mobil 1 Supercup race cars from 2022. Porsche also mentioned that its iconic 911 model along with other products are well suited for the eFuel.

The use of the eFuel is also in line with the brand's sustainable strategy and could help Porsche take a step towards achieving CO2-neutrality by the end of the decade. As per Porsche, wind power will be used to provide energy to the electrolysers, which will split water into oxygen and hydrogen. The CO2 in the air is then filtered and combined with the hydrogen to produce synthetic methanol, which is further converted into usable eFuel.

Link to Team-BHP news
RahulNagaraj is offline   (21) Thanks
Old 13th September 2021, 19:20   #2
BHPian
 
Electromotive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Terra
Posts: 124
Thanked: 560 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

I wonder if Porsche thinks they can continue to market ICE vehicles as status symbols like what happened to mechanical watches post the quartz revolution.

The whole idea of wasting energy and precious fresh water to create methanol is quite disgusting. The entire chain of energy transformation from the wind turbine to the final combustion in the ICE wastes more than 90% of the energy. Disgusting!
Electromotive is offline   (9) Thanks
Old 13th September 2021, 19:41   #3
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chennai
Posts: 336
Thanked: 497 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

This is a good thing IMO. Now we have EVs, Hydrogen cell based vehicles and eFuel... The options are expanding. This is great news.

All these options should be giving sleepless nights for the OPEC oligopoly countries. Hopefully they increase their production, leading to lesser fuel costs for all. And of-course better environment for all.

Regards,
lsjey
lsjey is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 13th September 2021, 20:05   #4
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 35
Thanked: 66 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
I wonder if Porsche thinks they can continue to market ICE vehicles as status symbols like what happened to mechanical watches post the quartz revolution.

The whole idea of wasting energy and precious fresh water to create methanol is quite disgusting. The entire chain of energy transformation from the wind turbine to the final combustion in the ICE wastes more than 90% of the energy. Disgusting!
It is not necessarily black and white. In India we are charging EVs with diesel generators in our apartment complexes (Especially in Bangalore where 24x7 power is something for your dreams). Now that is disgusting.

Having said that, I still do not want such a fuel for a LMV. These initiatives make a lot of sense for hard to abate sectors such as aviation in the near term. Areas where you do need a fired up engine and you still do not drill the earth for hydrocarbons. The initiatives are a beginning of a low carbon world.

https://www.elab2.kit.edu/english/193.php

https://www.government.nl/latest/new...hetic-kerosene
xrules is offline   (7) Thanks
Old 13th September 2021, 20:41   #5
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Kottayam
Posts: 310
Thanked: 1,035 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

As far as saving the environment goes, this doesn't really do anything. It's much better to directly put the electricity into a battery and drive the car that way.
But on the other hand this could be an alternative to petrolheads (who can afford this fuel which is probably going to be super expensive). This will mean that there will be (a few) cars that will continue to tingle our senses with the vibrations and the exhaust notes.

This could be the future of Motorsports, especially Formula 1
ZenMaster is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 13th September 2021, 22:12   #6
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Chandigarh
Posts: 24
Thanked: 47 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

All hail Porsche!!
Young petrol-heads (including me) worldwide are dreaming for the Porsche's eFuel to become a viable option in this decade.
If Germans were able to achieve a similar feat in the 1940's during WW2, I don't believe anything can hinder them now.
Also, even today the countries with high EV adoption aren't ready if EVs suddenly become mainstream due to forced deadlines (ICE bans) in terms of:
  • infrastructure
  • electricity generation and that too in a green (renewable) way.
Hemi6.2 is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 14th September 2021, 00:03   #7
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 35
Thanked: 66 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMaster View Post
As far as saving the environment goes, this doesn't really do anything. It's much better to directly put the electricity into a battery and drive the car that way.
But on the other hand this could be an alternative to petrolheads (who can afford this fuel which is probably going to be super expensive). This will mean that there will be (a few) cars that will continue to tingle our senses with the vibrations and the exhaust notes.

This could be the future of Motorsports, especially Formula 1
As long you restrict to the car, you are right. But it opens up another discussion when electricity cannot be directly used. Another thing to be mindful about is the fact that batteries have their own environmental problems. Now for F1, you are right that F1 has already announced to start reducing the carbon from 2021 (bio, or these kind of fuels) and be fully carbon neutral by 2030.

https://corp.formula1.com/fia-introd...-zero-by-2030/
xrules is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 14th September 2021, 09:14   #8
BHPian
 
Electromotive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Terra
Posts: 124
Thanked: 560 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

I don't understand why some members think this "eFuel" is something new or innovative? They are using water and CO2 to create methanol and then using the methanol to create longer chain hydrocarbons that are similar to petrol.

Look, the question is a simple: Why produce a synthetic fuel similar to petrol while wasting so much energy?

They can do other things like plant trees and fund projects that plant trees to become carbon neutral but no, they have to waste fresh water and 90% of the captured energy. Not to mention the carbon emission generated in setting up of the plant and production of materials used in setting up the plant. The land the plant sits on could have been home to lots of trees but now stands poisoned due to their oh-so-great "eFuel" which, I am sure, will be written off as a failed venture.
Electromotive is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 14th September 2021, 10:09   #9
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 35
Thanked: 66 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
I don't understand why some members think this "eFuel" is something new or innovative? They are using water and CO2 to create methanol and then using the methanol to create longer chain hydrocarbons that are similar to petrol.

Look, the question is a simple: Why produce a synthetic fuel similar to petrol while wasting so much energy?

They can do other things like plant trees and fund projects that plant trees to become carbon neutral but no, they have to waste fresh water and 90% of the captured energy. Not to mention the carbon emission generated in setting up of the plant and production of materials used in setting up the plant. The land the plant sits on could have been home to lots of trees but now stands poisoned due to their oh-so-great "eFuel" which, I am sure, will be written off as a failed venture.
Maybe when you understand that hydrocarbons are still needed to fly a plane in the near future, you may be able to get to the innovation. Also its not easy to make anything out of anything. yes, it is carbon and hydrogen, but to put them together and use them instead of drilling for hydrocarbons has a huge potential. Also you don't have to waste fresh water for it. Your treatment plant can take care of any water.
xrules is offline   (6) Thanks
Old 14th September 2021, 11:22   #10
BHPian
 
Electromotive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Terra
Posts: 124
Thanked: 560 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrules View Post
Maybe when you understand that hydrocarbons are still needed to fly a plane in the near future, you may be able to get to the innovation.
I don't need to 'get' this innovation. It is a sham, plain and simple. Fossil fuels have not run out, neither are they about to run out, in case you haven't noticed. There is no need to waste more energy and resources to re-invent hydrocarbons.

In case you did not know, methanol is a starting compound in the manufacture of many many chemical compounds and they make methanol from natural gas.

Also, note that this whole venture is "near carbon neutral" and what figures for 'near' only the scammers know. They are therefore generating more emissions under the guise of being environment friendly. They could have easily planted more trees or invested in carbon sequestration to compensate for emissions from fossils fuels, but that doesn't sell a complicated money sink of a car.

This will be my final post on this matter.
Electromotive is offline  
Old 14th September 2021, 11:59   #11
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 35
Thanked: 66 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
I don't need to 'get' this innovation. It is a sham, plain and simple. Fossil fuels have not run out, neither are they about to run out, in case you haven't noticed. There is no need to waste more energy and resources to re-invent hydrocarbons.

In case you did not know, methanol is a starting compound in the manufacture of many many chemical compounds and they make methanol from natural gas.

Also, note that this whole venture is "near carbon neutral" and what figures for 'near' only the scammers know. They are therefore generating more emissions under the guise of being environment friendly. They could have easily planted more trees or invested in carbon sequestration to compensate for emissions from fossils fuels, but that doesn't sell a complicated money sink of a car.

This will be my final post on this matter.
Let's agree to disagree on this one. Fossil has not run out, but there is enough CO2 footprint to even extract that, let alone burn it.

There is no one "silver-bullet" solution for the future world. There are going to be one too many that will form the basket of solutions.

One more note: Not all eFuels are methanol originated. Do you know the CO2 footprint of Natural Gas to Methanol? There is also CO2 footprint of planting trees and then watering them with fresh water .

Jokes apart, lets agree to disagree and if its a scam in your world, let it be!!
xrules is offline   (9) Thanks
Old 15th September 2021, 09:06   #12
BHPian
 
vredesbyrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: HR26/UP32/WB09
Posts: 399
Thanked: 1,023 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Why do certain type of people always complain about anything that is pro-ICE? This eFuel is going to be close to 90% cleaner than Petrol (yeah, the same goes for Koenigsegg's Vulcanol)?

We traditionalists get to keep the vrooms and hurt the environment considerably less. Is that a problem?

I don't see anyone complaining about lithium mining on every EV post (except Hydrogen EVs, those are cool), but now I think I will start doing it since it is a trend now to be against any hope that keeps the ICE alive.
vredesbyrd is offline   (6) Thanks
Old 15th September 2021, 09:36   #13
Senior - BHPian
 
DicKy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Thiruvanthapuram
Posts: 2,317
Thanked: 4,518 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Quote:
Originally Posted by vredesbyrd View Post
Why do certain type of people always complain about anything that is pro-ICE? This eFuel is going to be close to 90% cleaner than Petrol (yeah, the same goes for Koenigsegg's Vulcanol)?

We traditionalists get to keep the vrooms and hurt the environment considerably less. Is that a problem?

I don't see anyone complaining about lithium mining on every EV post (except Hydrogen EVs, those are cool), but now I think I will start doing it since it is a trend now to be against any hope that keeps the ICE alive.
Muskie boi the messiah, Tesla the testemant. 'Nuf said.

Anything else is shot down as conspiracies, scams or deep vested corporate interests. Reminds me of the 'cycling' enthusiasts in social media who if given their way, would ban all modes of transport except for bicycles and long distance trains. And also turn cities into enlarged high end town squares and parks.

Most people can't really get the sheer scale of vehicles in this planet of ours or the use case and types of markets. Smartphones are ubiquitous today and we can't live without them. We have seen in our lifetime how they have managed to transform everyones lives. But is the feature (dumb) phone dead yet? People outside desk jobs still use them as their work phone. backup phone or even as their sole phone.

Just like that, we should be open to every alternatives or choices we have, instead of claiming the high ground.
DicKy is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 15th September 2021, 10:05   #14
Senior - BHPian
 
IshaanIan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hyd/B'lore
Posts: 3,149
Thanked: 5,246 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
They are therefore generating more emissions under the guise of being environment friendly.
I do not understand the use of the term "therefore", right after you have said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
Also, note that this whole venture is "near carbon neutral" and what figures for 'near' only the scammers know.
If only the "scammers" know the figures, then how are you so confident in how much more emissions are being produced?

At the end of the day there is no one single solution. "sustainability" is a term that gets thrown around a lot but very rarely defined. Often times you will find that it is excess, convenience and consumerism that ought to be kept in check in order to truly be "sustainable" in some sense.

I appreciate the endeavor to make existing technology more efficient and to prolong the life of existing cars rather than force consumers to buy new ones that run on new fuels as it is my strong belief that if one buys fewer new things, that is the easiest and simplest way to save the planet.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 15th September 2021 at 10:07.
IshaanIan is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 15th September 2021, 11:54   #15
BHPian
 
Electromotive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Terra
Posts: 124
Thanked: 560 Times
Default Re: Porsche's near CO2-neutral fuel (eFuel) production facility breaks ground in Chile

Seems like I have to break my vow of silence after all. Sigh!
When for-profit corporations try to virtue signal, it demands greater scrutiny. The best way to do so is to follow the money.

Most proponents of efuels are companies from Germany. Automotive exports form a significant part of the German economy and provides jobs to hundreds and thousands of Germans. With the accelerating adoption of BEVs and the increasing number of manufacturers, the hegemony of German automakers and their bottom line is at risk and this is not good news for the German economy. This push towards efuels is an attempt to secure their investments in the production of ICE vehicles. Unfortunately, efuels are not at all cost effective to produce and thus cannot replace conventional fossil fuels in the next 5-7 years and by then batteries, and consequently - BEVs, would be a lot more affordable, sealing the fate of consumer ICE vehicles.

EV batteries are also going greener with sodium-ion batteries (CATL unveils its first generation of Sodium-ion Batteries) replacing Li-ion, so the argument regarding Li and rare earth mining pollution is going to be outdated.

Even for aviation and cargo ships, where margins are thin, the argument for efuels does not hold water due to the cost of production and lack of scale. Seems to me efuels and consumer ICE vehicles are going to go the way of the dodo.

No, I do not worship at the altar of Elon Musk, nor am I a Tesla fan. I am just being objective. Feel free to disagree (according to some, EV advocates are automatically ICE haters).

My biased and cherry picked sources:
Source 1
Source 2
Source 3
Electromotive is offline   (2) Thanks
Reply

Most Viewed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright 2000 - 2021, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks