[RahulNagaraj]

German Transport Minister, Volker Wissing, has neutralised any suggestions of implementing speed limits on the country's Autobahns.

According to media reports, Wissing stated that speed is the personal responsibility of the drivers, and as long as others are not endangered, the state should hold back. He further added that high energy prices are already causing people to drive slower than before & now with electric cars coming, people will avoid driving fast in order to save their batteries.



Wissing went on to suggest expanding the highway network to reduce congestion, despite objections from others in the government. He mentioned how there would be more traffic on German roads, which would have to be dealt with, which, if not, could bring the economy to a standstill.

Wissing was part of a coalition government which was elected to power in October 2021. One of the parties in the coalition was supporting the idea of implementing speed limits, raising multiple rumours of it becoming a policy priority. This rumour was further fuelled when former F1 driver Sebastian Vettel also spoke in favour of the speed limit. Wissing though dispelled the rumours very quickly.

Source: Automobilwoche

Link to Team-BHP news

[GTO]

Originally Posted by RahulNagaraj

now with electric cars coming, people will avoid driving fast in order to save their batteries.

Haha! This is why you see EVs driving at 80 kmph in the middle lane on the expressway. There is a massive difference in battery range between cruising at 80 kmph or 120 kmph. Even in the USA, many people complain about driving long distances in an EV. Not just because of the charging infrastructure, but even how one cannot drive at 75 - 80 mph with the rest of the traffic. I've driven a few EVs on the Mumbai-Pune expressway and if you drive like an enthusiast, the drop in range can get alarming!

Take a look at the 2018 Teslas (at the bottom) of this chart I got from Reddit. You are looking at a whopping drop of 75 - 100 miles of range just by keeping on driving at 75 - 80 mph with traffic (which is possible on many freeways in the USA):


EVs aren't ready for road-trips

Range/Aero/Weather. You have to stop more often, you have to drive slower. What a terrible combo. Allegedly my trucks range in conserve mode is 293 miles, but you can't drive that far at 70 mph, definitely not at 75, and sure not going to happen at 80. Driving into a headwind or in the cold or both? You could reduce your range by 50% or more. That's just not acceptable, my previous ICE vehicle, horrible efficiency meant a 20% reduction in range.

I have a route I run fairly often that's right at 300 miles one way. In my previous ICE vehicle I had a fairly standard routine, I'd stop halfway fill up, bathroom and hit the drive through, 15-20 minute stop. If I didn't need to eat, or use the restroom, I could make it without stopping.

Making this same trip in the Rivian, it's 120 miles to the charger, which is 10 minutes in the wrong direction. 189 miles from the charger to the destination, which means I need to charge to 90%+. Depending on how efficient the first leg was and how the charger is behaving, that's 30-60 minutes. So 20 minutes of extra driving, then 30-60 minutes of charging. You're adding 30-60 minutes of stopping time vs the ICE vehicle. You need to stop multiple times and you really start piling on the time.

I love my truck, and I honestly don't mind a 1 stop trip, I make it my food stop and bathroom stop and the extra time isn't too hateful. I won't take an EV beyond 1 charger stop and we won't be selling the ICE vehicle. It's just not ready.

[padmrajravi]

I find this argument baseless. Once charging infrastructure matures and charging speeds improve, nobody will try to maximize range by lane hogging. This practice is a side effect of low charging speed. Even the ICE cars face a drop in mileage once they go beyond 100 KMPH. ICE car owners do not mind that because they know there will be a fuel pump around the corner and it just takes 5 minutes to get the full range back. EVs will also reach there.

[bivision]

There is a contrary view expressed by US safety chief that due to heavier weight, EV poses more danger to life. Should EV have lesser speed limit than gasoline cars?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/01...r-heavier-evs/

[G V Krishna]

I would agree with the minister, but would keep the speed limits.

This is because, the moment speed limits are gone there would be a niche/fringe groups modifying electric cars that go 400 KMPH and greater just for the sake of it. Of course, the range would be hardly 50-100 KM..but the statement would be for showing off speed. This obviously endangers the other users of the underlying infrastructure.

We should also note that the speed limit is not purely based on the vehicle but also it is based on the road infrastructures (we are talking about EU & NA here..not India..we all know that in India speed limits are mostly decided at the whims of police, politicos and local governments).

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

there will be a fuel pump around the corner and it just takes 5 minutes to get the full range back. EVs will also reach there.

I would say that full charging EV batteries might not come down to less than an hour as it poses serious challenges and dangers due to the chemistry of the elements in the batteries. There would be a lot, I mean hell lot of heat generated when charging chemical batteries at high currents (Hundreds of Amperes). Also, at the same time, the battery density is increasing with the current R&D efforts and the car manufacturers are also packing more battery capacity per car. This would translate to longer range and a charging time of 1 hour for 0-80%. But you are partially right, soon we'll be able to add ~100 KM range within 10 mins.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by G V Krishna

This is because, the moment speed limits are gone there would be a niche/fringe groups modifying electric cars that go 400 KMPH and greater just for the sake of it...

As if currently there isn't any niche/fringe groups setting top speed runs on the Autobahn.

All this hullabaloo is less to do with safety (autobahns are already the safest) and more to do with green politics.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

I find this argument baseless.

Actually, there is nothing baseless about it. EVs lose 35 - 50% of their range when driven at 120 kmph. They also lose a significant part of range when driven at 110 kmph versus 80 kmph. I have seen this first-hand in at least 10+ EVs that I've driven. How do I know? Because I tend to have a heavy right foot from time to time. If you thought turbo-petrols drop their efficiency when driven fast, you should take an EV on a long road-trip.

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of EVs and odds are, my next car will be a fast EV. But we have to accept their pros as well as cons.

Once charging infrastructure matures

The keyword here is *once*. Even in the USA, outside of Tesla's awesome charging network, EV owners complain about the charging infrastructure when travelling between cities.

it just takes 5 minutes to get the full range back. EVs will also reach there.

5 minutes to get full range back is currently a pipe-dream in India, buddy. And even when fast-charging is available, we will wait for it to become reliable & widespread. EV charging today sucks with lots of unreliability, waiting periods etc.

Don't forget that fast-charging costs are comparable to a full tank of petrol in developed countries, and continuous fast-charging can affect battery health (check out Tesla's own guidelines). The best for battery health is slow-charging overnight.

Even the ICE cars face a drop in mileage once they go beyond 100 KMPH.

As EVs improve their range, ICE cars aren't exactly sitting with their hands tied behind their back. Maruti & Toyota are bringing hybrid tech to the masses. 20+ kmpl on the highway is very realistic for a hybrid car. With the typical 50-liter tank, that's 1000 km of driving range and a fill-up time of 5 minutes. 20 kmpl is also very realistic for a diesel crossover like the Creta or City i-DTEC on the highway. Let's wait for EVs to get there before we write the advantages of ICE cars off.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by GTO

5 minutes to get full range back is currently a pipe-dream in India, buddy. And even when fast-charging is available, we will wait for it to become reliable & widespread. EV charging today sucks with lots of unreliability, waiting periods etc.

Don't forget that fast-charging costs are comparable to a full tank of petrol in developed countries, and continuous fast-charging can affect battery health (check out Tesla's own guidelines). The best for battery health is slow-charging overnight.

Agree that it will take time for fast-charging tech to mature. But is that a good reason to not have speed limits? I felt the argument that 'we don't need speed limits because EVs are anyway lane hoggers' is not something that will withstand the test of time. And we don't actually need full battery capacity in 5 mins, a couple of hundred KMs will do. Huawei, Xpeng, etc already have chargers that can add 200 KMs in 5 mins. Encouraging the concept of responsible driving sure is a good reason to not have speed limits. All these arguments are in the context of Autobahn though, everything falls flat when it comes to India. Because we are a long way away from all these reaching here.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by GTO

Even in the USA, many people complain about driving long distances in an EV. Not just because of the charging infrastructure, but even how one cannot drive at 75 - 80 mph with the rest of the traffic. I've driven a few EVs on the Mumbai-Pune expressway and if you drive like an enthusiast, the drop in range can get alarming!

So true! My friend was saying that it is ok to get on the on high-occupancy vehicle lane (HOV) on Interstate 5 during the regular runs between his home and downtown LA (closer to his home/charging base), but seldom use the fast lane with his Model 3 on long distance highway runs.

[PreludeSH]

Can relate to the range. I drive (ride) the Ather 450X. Only in Eco mode it shows good range. But with pillion, it doesnt accelerate on inclines, though it pulls constant. Got to switch to ride/sport. Then you see the range dropping by big percentage. Its one extra thing to do when you are mileage conscious

Same thing would happen for fossil fuels. But we dont seem to mind just because you can fill it up everywhere !

[carthick1000]

Since aerodynamic drag is directionally proportional to the square of speed, the German minister has a valid point. I make quite some trips to Germany from NL in my model 3, but I don't drive more than 150kmph on autobahn, not because of energy consumption or charging infra reasons. Mainly it is very busy and you need a lot of concentration to drive at 200kmph+ for longer distances. 150kmph is relaxed and fast enough to reach places.

Originally Posted by GTO

EVs lose 35 - 50% of their range when driven at 120 kmph.

Based on experience and data I have over my car and some others I have analysed, I would rather nuance this as follows:

At 120kmph

• A less efficient EV ie one which has poor powertrain design and higher aerodynamic drag loses anywhere around 40% range at 120kmph and weather around 20-30degC
• The same type of EV as above loses additional 10-15% if temperatures are around 0degC
• An EV with good powertrain design and lesser aerodynamic drag loses about 25% range at 20-30degC and loses about 30-35% range at -10 to 0degC

I would rate the following as highest to lowest factors having impact on range at high speeds:

- Aerodynamic drag (Ioniq 6 would be better than Ioniq 5 at same conditions)
- Weather conditions (Colder it is, worser it gets). Rain also negatively impacts rolling resistance which reduces range.
- Powertrain (Battery+Motor+Power electronics) efficiency
- Tire pressure

[lina]

Most EVs today have just 1 gear and thats part of the reason why they lose so much range at higher speeds. If they make multi-gear EVs, things will be much more efficient at higher speeds.

[FiestaST]

Originally Posted by GTO

Even in the USA, outside of Tesla's awesome charging network, EV owners complain about the charging infrastructure when travelling between cities.


Don't forget that fast-charging costs are comparable to a full tank of petrol in developed countries

I can attest to both of these statements. Last month we got a Tesla Model Y LR into the family and it now sits along side our Mazda CX5.

We wanted to initially get rid of ICE car but decided to try few months before finalising. During a recent 200 mile trip in freezing temperatures, our range dropped by about ~30% with very moderate usage of heat. If we did normal freeway speeds, we were looking at another ~5% reduction in range.

With in a month, we decided to keep our ICE for those long drives and as a back up.

As for electric energy costs, if not planned well, one can very well pay over what premium fuel would have costed for the same distance.

Having said that, 9/10 times, I want to be in an EV. Music, phone calls sound so much better. Not to mention, that acceleration from traffic lights is new found love.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by lina

Most EVs today have just 1 gear and thats part of the reason why they lose so much range at higher speeds. If they make multi-gear EVs, things will be much more efficient at higher speeds.

It is far more related to aerodynamic drag, which is proportional to the square of the cars speed. The efficiency of e motors at high versus low RPM is very complex and would warrant its own thread. But save to say the aerodynamic drag is the main factor. Adding a gearbox doesn’t really help as the mechanical losses would outweigh the electrical efficiency gain by a good margin.

The only way to improve range at high speeds would be to design the e motor specifically for high RPMs continuously. But it would probably be detrimental for the overall efficiency along the complete speed range and it would make it a lot more expensive too.

Jeroen

[headers]

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

I find this argument baseless. Once charging infrastructure matures and charging speeds improve, nobody will try to maximize range by lane hogging. This practice is a side effect of low charging speed. Even the ICE cars face a drop in mileage once they go beyond 100 KMPH. ICE car owners do not mind that because they know there will be a fuel pump around the corner and it just takes 5 minutes to get the full range back. EVs will also reach there.

The charging network and charging speeds need atleast a decade to reach comparable speeds ICE refuelling timelines.

Yes, I am aware of the emerging battery technologies and the DC fast charging networks and also the lack of a common battery voltage architecture that would help reduce costs in the design of EVs..