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Old 10th April 2023, 14:13   #1
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Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

Toyota's Executive Vice President, Hiroki Nakajima, has announced that the company is working on their next generation of plug-in hybrid models. Nakajima stated that these new-gen PHEVs from Toyota would have a pure electric range of more than 124 miles (200 km). Irrespective of whether it is based on WLTP or EPA test cycle (yet to be announced), it is a major boost in terms of pure-EV range.

Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range-toyotaprius1.jpg

For reference, Toyota's newest PHEV, the Prius Prime, offers an estimated pure-EV driving range of 44 miles (71 km) via its 13.6 kWh battery pack. This, in itself, is a 76% jump in the EV range compared to the previous-gen model.

Toyota says its next-gen PHEVs will be repositioned as "practical BEV". The brand's regular hybrid models will also get an improvement with a focus on quality and affordability. The Japanese carmaker also announced that they are working on the next-gen BEVs, which will start arriving in markets by 2026 and claim to offer double the driving range compared to the current models.

Source: Motor1

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Old 10th April 2023, 19:35   #2
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

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Originally Posted by RahulNagaraj View Post
The Japanese carmaker also announced that they are working on the next-gen BEVs, which will start arriving in markets by 2026 and claim to offer double the driving range compared to the current models.
International yes, hope they consider India also as a part of their markets atleast this time.
The Prius was such a great product, but in Indian context it was more of a tragedy.
It was my first time in a Hybrid vehicle and it was "An Experience", the Hyryder did not feel anywhere close enough.
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Old 10th April 2023, 21:37   #3
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

This is definitely a step in the right direction.

I've always maintained that we need something similar to a "self-charging EV", basically an EV with a generator, which is practically the best of both worlds.
If people charge it using a charger, the costs are exactly the same as an EV, and the incremental cost of a generator should be relatively small. This can also be offset by slightly smaller battery.

Toyota's solution still has a bit more complexity as the hybrid system mechanically powers the vehicle too, rather than just charging the batteries.
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Old 11th April 2023, 00:04   #4
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

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This is definitely a step in the right direction.
I've always maintained that we need something similar to a "self-charging EV", basically an EV with a generator, which is practically the best of both worlds.
If people charge it using a charger, the costs are exactly the same as an EV, and the incremental cost of a generator should be relatively small. This can also be offset by slightly smaller battery.
My brother had the previous generation Prius Prime, that he traded in for a Tesla Model Y. Imagine you are planning a 300mile road trip. After the 30 miles of all Electric range, you are carrying the weight of the generator and a depleted battery for the remaining 270 miles.

And, for a typical 20 mile commute, you are carrying a full ICE engine and gas, as dead weight 100% of the time. Lose - lose situation.

Now add on the additional wear because of additional weight, add the cost of maintaining ICE engine, then cost of replacing this hybrid battery after 8 years. This has huge impact on resale value after 5 years. It washes away all the savings.

I did test drive the regular Prius, its certainly a much better car. Better looks, better power, better range. Very compelling car. Most gains are from an awesome hybrid drive train that charges while braking or going downhill in cities. I just don't think this scales with a bigger battery/plug in charging. This logic reflects in the sales numbers.
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Old 11th April 2023, 11:08   #5
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

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Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon View Post
After the 30 miles of all Electric range, you are carrying the weight of the generator and a depleted battery for the remaining 270 miles.

And, for a typical 20 mile commute, you are carrying a full ICE engine and gas, as dead weight 100% of the time. Lose - lose situation.
This makes sense, but I have a different point of view.

Take an example of intercity travel between Mumbai to Goa which is about 600 km. A hybrid like Toyota's will give me a great mileage without worrying about charging the vehicle immediately after I reach my destination. At places where chargers (fast chargers) are few and far between, such cars will have an edge over a proper BEV. Even today, I see a lot of cars lined up for charging at some places on the road to Goa. The wait time will only increase as EVs become mainstream and infrastructure does not improve at the same speed.

Last year we did a roadtrip in a Tesla 3 and while the trip itself was smooth, I had to go somewhere immediately after the trip but we had to wait for the car to charge bit. Even then, it didn't get charged completely and I had to take an Uber from a point where my friend could go back home.

The point is, BEVs are good, but they still need planning, especially when you have back to back drives with little to no time to charge the car in between.
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Old 11th April 2023, 11:45   #6
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

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Even today, I see a lot of cars lined up for charging at some places on the road to Goa. The wait time will only increase as EVs become mainstream and infrastructure does not improve at the same speed.
Add cost to the equation. A friend of mine did Delhi - Chandigarh - Shimla on his EV. His cost per km turned out to be north of Rs. 6 per Km; all due to third party fast chargers. I don't see costs coming down if EV usage increases at a faster pace than infrastructure.
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Old 11th April 2023, 12:10   #7
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

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Originally Posted by PSL View Post
which is practically the best of both worlds.
I am not a believer of "plug-in" hybrids as they still require charging. And if you have access to charging, why not just buy an EV? Mainstream EVs are already giving you 300+ km of range; with battery tech fast progressing every year, it's only a matter of time before Tata & Mahindra give you EVs with 500 km range.

Plug-in hybrids are very, very complex as they bring all the complications of an electric vehicle as well as a petrol car into one.

That being said, I am a big believer of full / regular hybrids like the City & Hyryder which require no charging, and give 20+ kmpl even in the city. If full hybrids go mainstream, they can solve a lot of problems for India.

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His cost per km turned out to be north of Rs. 6 per Km; all due to third party fast chargers.
Well said. Fast charger stations cost crores of rupees and all the companies investing in them are looking at ROI. I believe that public charging of EVs will be as expensive as petrol (if not more, in some cases).

The best & cheapest way to charge your EV is at home (or office parking, if your employer gives you discounted charging facilities).

Last edited by GTO : 11th April 2023 at 12:13.
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Old 12th April 2023, 07:34   #8
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

On plug in hybrids, I was initially strongly in favour of them since arguably, they can give the best of full EV plus eliminate range anxiety. But I am also coming around to the strong hybrid view. Personally I would prefer strong hybrids to even EVs in the foreseeable future and I don’t think I would consider a PHEV at all. The only major wrinkle to that is that EVs are likely to give much more performance while strong hybrids might be relatively more modest to drive for the enthusiast.

The other less known factor is battery degradation. I can imagine using a strong hybrid for 12 - 15 years with one major capex if needed around 8-9 year mark. With a battery EV, not sure if their usable life will be closer to 8 - 10 years in usable terms if the battery degrades too much in that period. With a degraded battery, it’s questionable what kind of residual value also these vehicles might hold.

Completely on board with the possible (lack of) cost savings as well for EVs if you don’t have an electrical point that goes to your own meter, like Bharathan and GTO wrote. Even in many apartment complexes like my existing one, the mid to long term plan seems to be to get third party vendors who will provide a charging solution / infrastructure. I am pretty sure these will be more expensive than your routine home charging costs, and ultimately, these vendors might arrive at a pricing model that’s got one eye on what ICE costs for users, and another eye on capex of their setup plus electricity cost and land up somewhere in between.
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Old 12th April 2023, 11:56   #9
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

Here is my two cents. For me, the range of 44 miles of newest PHEV is sufficient for a usage of 100 km per day because it bring down the frequency of charging compared to EV. This is a big relief for the owners in his/her busy schedule and he gets a bonus on fuel saving as he can fully dependent on cheap home charging. With 200 km, charging frequency will come down further and hence, you can have the ownership experience very close to ICE cars if you schedule the charging along with week end cleaning routines. In long road trips, for someone who cover a distance of 500 to 1000 km with breaks in every 200 - 300 km, he/she can reach the destination in a time span close to ICE cars by spending money close to EV.

On a lighter note, the lonely drivers may have better connect to PHEV as it can join you during lunch breaks on long trip.
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Old 12th April 2023, 23:09   #10
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

Toyota "practical EVs" will come 10 years after BMW debuted it's "practical EV" i3 REX.
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Old 12th April 2023, 23:12   #11
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I am not a believer of "plug-in" hybrids as they still require charging. And if you have access to charging, why not just buy an EV? Mainstream EVs are already giving you 300+ km of range; with battery tech fast progressing every year, it's only a matter of time before Tata & Mahindra give you EVs with 500 km range.

Plug-in hybrids are very, very complex as they bring all the complications of an electric vehicle as well as a petrol car into one.

That being said, I am a big believer of full / regular hybrids like the City & Hyryder which require no charging, and give 20+ kmpl even in the city. If full hybrids go mainstream, they can solve a lot of problems for India.
Completely agree on this point. I never understood the funda behind a plug-in hybrid. You have to charge it as well as fill it with petrol/diesel. That is a non-starter for me. In US, the regular hybrid of Prius outsells the plug-in hybrid variant by 3 to 1. The new improved Prius hybrid gives a mileage of 52 MPG which is pretty good.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The best & cheapest way to charge your EV is at home (or office parking, if your employer gives you discounted charging facilities).
Power price in all states is not the same. I dont know if its always cheaper. Internationally the states/countries that are aggressively pushing for EVs are also the ones which are pushing for greener power overall. For Eg: California mandates that all the utility providers in the state have to ensure 50% of their power comes from greener power sources like solar and wind by 2030. Ironically, this makes it the second most expensive state for electricity, so much for green power. I wouldnt be surprised if our electricity boards in states come up with a differential pricing strategy with the charging points having different meters.
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Old 13th April 2023, 01:26   #12
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

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Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon View Post
My brother had the previous generation Prius Prime, that he traded in for a Tesla Model Y. Imagine you are planning a 300mile road trip. After the 30 miles of all Electric range, you are carrying the weight of the generator and a depleted battery for the remaining 270 miles.

And, for a typical 20 mile commute, you are carrying a full ICE engine and gas, as dead weight 100% of the time. Lose - lose situation.

Now add on the additional wear because of additional weight, add the cost of maintaining ICE engine, then cost of replacing this hybrid battery after 8 years. This has huge impact on resale value after 5 years. It washes away all the savings.

I did test drive the regular Prius, its certainly a much better car. Better looks, better power, better range. Very compelling car. Most gains are from an awesome hybrid drive train that charges while braking or going downhill in cities. I just don't think this scales with a bigger battery/plug in charging. This logic reflects in the sales numbers.
Prius prime runs like a regular hybrid once it ran out of pure electric range, so itís not completely a dead weight.
Last gen was unsuccessful because just 20+ miles of range was insufficient for commute combined with the additional cost over regular Prius.

The current gen prime solved it by providing around 40+ Miles of pure electric range. But then the Tesla announced the price cut to make the situation more complicate.
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Old 13th April 2023, 03:08   #13
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

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Prius prime runs like a regular hybrid once it ran out of pure electric range, so it’s not completely a dead weight.
Last gen was unsuccessful because just 20+ miles of range was insufficient for commute combined with the additional cost over regular Prius.

The current gen prime solved it by providing around 40+ Miles of pure electric range. But then the Tesla announced the price cut to make the situation more complicate.
The standard Prius has a 1.3kWh battery. The benefits of this small battery outweigh the additional weight by being able to charge itself completely while decelerating, going downhill, or braking in city traffic.

The bigger battery of 8.8kWh will never get fully recharged in city traffic. This bigger depleted battery is a deadweight. The 2024 Prius prime bumps up this battery from 8.8kWh to 13.6kWh. Hopefully no more increase in deadweight using better battery tech. Time will tell how much of 44 miles range this will deliver.

There has also been rumors of a solar roof on Prius prime adding all of this EV - range. Now, this would be incredible. If it can recover all of the electric range using a solar roof (for free), there would be no need to charge every day for the tiny EV range.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 08:59   #14
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

Toyota quietly develops Manual Transmission for Hybrid line-up.

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The emergence of hybrid-engine vehicles is considered one death for manual transmissions. But Toyota ensured that the manual transmission could still be compatible with hybrid engines. Toyota recently filed a patent application on a system that would facilitate the use of manual transmissions in hybrid cars. This system will regulate the interaction between the internal combustion engine, the electric motor, and its settings on the transmission.
Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range-innovazenixhybrid.jpg

Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range-manualhybrid.jpg

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Old 23rd November 2023, 19:15   #15
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Re: Next-gen Toyota plug-in hybrids to offer 200 km of electric range

Toyota removes blue in hybrid product line.

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Toyota First time using blue as a vehicle symbol Electrification by applying to the Toyota logo pinned on the Prius Gen-3 alert in 2009.

However, recently the blue color has now disappeared from hybrid cars The latest Toyota output. For example, the Toyota Zenix hybrid and Yaris Cross hybrid are no longer equipped with Toyota's distinctive blue color.

While globally, the blue badge is also deprecated on the 2025 Toyota Camry and Toyota Crown Signia.

Quote:
it is known that Toyota replaced the blue badge with a HEV emblem complete with a blue dot 'Beyond Zero'. Not without reason, according to Toyota representatives, this is one way Toyota to identify its hybrid vehicles.

Because the Japanese automotive manufacturer wants HEV vehicles, Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV), Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV) and Fuel Cell EV, to enter the ranks of Beyond Zero. That way, Toyota's hybrid model that has been equipped with blue, seems to be soon adopting the latest identity in the next generation. As already pinned on the 2025 Toyota Camry and Toyota Crown Signia.
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