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Old 21st November 2023, 14:19   #1
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India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting cars

According to a media report, countries like India, Australia & several others are at risk of becoming dumping grounds for a number of high-polluting cars.

Carbon Tracker, a London-based think tank, states that Europe, China & North America are tightening their emission regulations, forcing their drivers to move to EVs. This could result in automakers off-loading their old-tech & higher-polluting cars to countries with weak or non-existent decarbonization targets.

India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting cars-bmwix.jpg

The think tank reports that India, Australia, Russia, Turkey, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia and South Africa have made little to no effort to transition to cleaner cars. The report also states that these countries will find it harder to import used EVs from more eco-minded countries in the future.

Also, countries with no solid plans of ending ICE-powered vehicle sales will not only fail to contribute towards reducing climate change but also lock themselves in a loop that could hurt them financially.

The report goes on to state that if proper policies are introduced to promote electric vehicle sales, Carbon Tracker estimates that Africa, Asia & South America combined could save more than $100 million on fuel imports.

Source: Bloomberg

Link to Team-BHP news

Last edited by RahulNagaraj : 21st November 2023 at 14:20.
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Old 21st November 2023, 15:47   #2
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

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Originally Posted by RahulNagaraj View Post
According to a media report, countries like India, Australia

The think tank reports that India, Australia, Russia, Turkey, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia and South Africa have made little to no effort to transition to cleaner cars.
Surprised to see Australia on this list - being a developed country. Seems like their strong fossil fuel lobby is really stifling the shift to clean energy!
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Old 21st November 2023, 15:52   #3
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

This think tank is probably not focusing on the fact that EVs are not the solution to environmental problems as long as we are burning fossil fuels to generate electricity and the process of safe disposal of used battery packs. I was reading a report by World Economic Forum and according to it, we need 2 billion evs on road to achieve that net zero emission target set by IAE for 2050. Do we really have enough lithium reserves for 2 billion EVs? Short answer is no. And mining such amount of lithium is not sustainable to begin with.

Way forward is not just EVs, but sustainable development and pragmatic approach which focuses to bring a mix of EVs, Hybrid, fuel cell and also address the main sources of pollution rather than just passing the buck on automobile sector.
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Old 21st November 2023, 18:12   #4
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

Misplaced priorities. Decarbonization is about much more than vehicles. Let each country electrify with its own pace based on the individual dynamics present. For example, a large majority of cars in India are below INR20 lac (ex-showroom) and there are hardly any cars globally in this segment yet. The current gen of EVs are mostly for early adopters. The sweeping changes in battery tech over the last few years have made EV residual values (prices in the used car market) very uncertain. We are increasing penetration gradually and can scale further once we also develop a battery value chain in India, currently the battery value chain is concentrated in China.

Also, making the power production situation more sustainable is itself a challenge but we are making decent progress.

Humans are still to figure out a way to delink carbon consumption and growth. Hope we find sustainable solutions soon but none exist at scale as of now.
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Old 21st November 2023, 18:34   #5
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

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Originally Posted by sachin_cs View Post
we need 2 billion evs on road to achieve that net zero emission target set by IAE for 2050. Do we really have enough lithium reserves for 2 billion EVs? Short answer is no. And mining such amount of lithium is not sustainable to begin with.
There is no study which shows anything to support the scarcity of Lithium. Lithium is at least recyclable! We are depleting oil which is a non recyclable product and worrying about a recyclable product!!! If Lithium runs out there will be many other metals that can be used. USGS data shows 98 million tons of resources. Even at present reserves, it is 26 million tons, the annual production is 0.1 million tons. That means the current reserves are enough for 2 billion cars and the resources will be enough for 7 billion cars. https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mc...23-lithium.pdf
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Old 21st November 2023, 19:43   #6
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

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Originally Posted by dragracer567 View Post
Surprised to see Australia on this list - being a developed country. Seems like their strong fossil fuel lobby is really stifling the shift to clean energy!
I don't think the fuel lobby is responsible for this. While Australia has well developed cities and infra in urban areas, a significant portion of the country is still uninhabited. Forget electricity, finding essentials like fuel, food and water is still a challenge for those living/travelling through the outback. I believe reliance on fossil fuel vehicles is a necessity rather than a choice for those folks. In urban areas, I believe the penetration of EVs might be at par with the rest of the developed world.
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Old 21st November 2023, 20:04   #7
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

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Originally Posted by sachin_cs View Post
This think tank is probably not focusing on the fact that EVs are not the solution to environmental problems as long as we are burning fossil fuels to generate electricity and the process of safe disposal of used battery packs. I was reading a report by World Economic Forum and according to it, we need 2 billion evs on road to achieve that net zero emission target set by IAE for 2050. Do we really have enough lithium reserves for 2 billion EVs? Short answer is no. And mining such amount of lithium is not sustainable to begin with.

Way forward is not just EVs, but sustainable development and pragmatic approach which focuses to bring a mix of EVs, Hybrid, fuel cell and also address the main sources of pollution rather than just passing the buck on automobile sector.
The amount of mis-information in these few lines is frightening. Electricity grid will eventually be run by renewable energy from solar, wind , hydro and nuclear (SMR reactors are fit for peaker plants). Lithium isn't rare , there's more lithium than copper on this planet. America just discovered the single most largest lithium reserve at Mcdermitt caldera which alone meets lithium demand for EVs till 2050. India also has discovered 2 spots (Gujarat and Jammu/ladakh). Hydrogen fuel cell is a fool's errand and even Toyota learnt it the hard way. Toyota is developing their "solid state" cell as an actual solution and hybrids are a stop gap. Hopefully you will revise your opinions after learning the truth.

Link - https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/...018032.article

Last edited by Nikhildrao : 21st November 2023 at 20:33.
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Old 21st November 2023, 20:49   #8
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

If those articles other threads villainising EVs are the works of the oil lobby or of recent Japanese lobby, not sure who is behind this poor article.

It makes as if other countries are going to dump their excess old tech inventory in the part of the world that are not enlightened enough to blindly ban ICE and adopt BEVs. Already we have one of the strictest emission norms in the developing world (our poor AQI is another story). And our authorities are doing their level best to harrass vehicle owners with bans and sugar fuels slowly destroying engines.

So maybe the powers to be will take notice of this enlightened report by Carbon Tracker and make sure that we are on the way to adopt the latest BEV norms and ban ICE from the Earth's surface. Maybe a strict cut off date in 2030 will do?
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Old 21st November 2023, 21:48   #9
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

I have been in Oil & Gas for 19 years, so I have some idea and I care for the environment the most as I have seen the damages done by these o&g companies to the nature and as well as to the people.

First some facts:
• US produces its electricity with fossil fuel for its 60% of the total requirement.
• The per capita energy consumption of US is 12000 KWH (India paltry 1200 KWH) - highest in the big countries ignoring smaller countries that occupy the top 10, the disaster started in the West - specifically with US.
• Finally, US is the top producer of Oil & Gas in the world as per 2023 statistics (refer Wikipedia and other sources). I have to target US as Bloomberg usually releases pro-US studies and propaganda.

Now see who is crying.

Below are my rants: if you do not agree, just ignore!

One or two countries produce (DRC, China to name a few) critical core raw materials for the LiPo (Cobalt, Lithium etc.), and this is a disaster waiting to happen just like what happened to the fossil reserves holding countries. Those countries will be un-stabilized for extraction of the raw materials like what is happening now. Venezuela, Nigeria, Russia, Iraq, Iran and the list keeps extending as in the fossil fuel case. Still so much new drilling is happening in US and it is a serious percentage to the GDP. So, they have to stop this first.

IMHO, this is a piece of nonsense article sponsored by EV lobby and US government pushing this agenda in a big way for many years now. I simply ignore this. All these talks should be towards companies like Shell, Chevron, BHP and many other o&g companies. to stop drilling for fossil fuels and polluting many 3rd world countries in Africa, Asia & South America. The damage has been done by these guys for the last 100 plus years and we have to pay for their sins. Just like the nuclear reactors - they built 100s of reactors even tested few other use cases here & there and enjoyed the benefits, now putting embargo on everyone else.

EV is not a silver wand - it is just one more fuel if I may call that way. EVs do not solve all of the mobility problems to replace the fossil fuels. EV tech is not matured - it might mature or might be replaced with something else - no one knows which one yet. So, no point in jumping 100% to EV unless one knows that future of what will be the best mobility solution considering the environmental impacts. EVs are not environment friendly in itself 100%. They are only offering lots of relief in the carbon emissions. The source of electricity (if it is from fossil fuel like in India in big way), safe disposal/recycle etc. still lot of progress to be made to make it environment friendly.

This article is straight coming from US propaganda mafia to push India like countries to adopt EV, thus less power to the oil producing countries. This strategy started years back when OPEC started to dictate their terms and control the market price by reducing the production etc. which affected US in a big way. Oil brings lots of money and thus this is also a threat to US. They see everything as a threat first and plan accordingly. These kind of manipulation by one or two countries on such an essential commodity is a big no for country like US. US thinks and plans for at least 50 years. Their goal is to get rid of the general dependency on fossil fuel simply thus less power to these people who indirectly create further issues and escalations.

Now, a reality check: without diesel how we (and other developing & 3rd world countries in South America, Africa, Asia) are going to transport the day-to-day essentials, I wonder. India is a developing country where we have millions of houses without even LPG gas access and we are talking about all these. We do not have proper supply of automobile CNG across the country and it is more than 20 plus years already and we cannot get CNG cars in the Southern parts of India. For LPG refilling there is a big queue in filling stations. Imagine EV charging stations. There will be disaster. In summary, do not read into these studies too much and think twice, I tell myself all the time.

Last but not least, why BMW picture? They have far better cars than gas guzzlers produced by none other than US itself!

Last edited by sgmuser : 21st November 2023 at 22:05. Reason: typos
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Old 21st November 2023, 21:52   #10
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

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Originally Posted by DicKy View Post
If those articles other threads villainising EVs are the works of the oil lobby or of recent Japanese lobby, not sure who is behind this poor article.
Thanks. I just got a couple of meme ideas:

Every month in the news:

India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting cars-86sqbp.jpg

After reading the news/reports, customers be like:

India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting cars-86sqwl.jpg

Last edited by SmartCat : 21st November 2023 at 21:58.
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Old 22nd November 2023, 12:40   #11
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

I have a different and fundamental view regarding this.
The reason everyone is buying vehicles is because we need to travel for leisure & commute to work. That is the fundamental need for transportation.
Now, India is doing all it needs to do for improving the transportation infrastructure. Below is a list:
1. Better public transportation in the cities with Electric Buses (at-least in Mumbai, Pune, Bangalore, Delhi, but the story is the same in other parts of India).
2. Metros are being built everywhere! They are even uprooting trees in Pune to make way for metro (really wasteful, but a necessary evil).
3. Trains like Vande Bharat are making it a lucrative travel option for many. Though, the ticket prices are exorbitant and need to be checked (IRCTC's monopolistic techniques need to be regulated).
In view of the above, many people will switch to these options and hopefully reduce the usage of personal vehicles.

All these studies have inherent conflict of interest in portraying that one lobby is better than another lobby! EVs and ICE have equally bad aspects but the people studying these blindside everyone to the possibility of any other alternative.
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Old 22nd November 2023, 13:04   #12
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

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Originally Posted by furyrider View Post
I don't think the fuel lobby is responsible for this. While Australia has well developed cities and infra in urban areas, a significant portion of the country is still uninhabited. Forget electricity, finding essentials like fuel, food and water is still a challenge for those living/travelling through the outback. I believe reliance on fossil fuel vehicles is a necessity rather than a choice for those folks. In urban areas, I believe the penetration of EVs might be at par with the rest of the developed world.
It is true that those living in the outback would be dependent on ICEs, however, the vast majority of people in Australia actually live in these urban areas, infact 16 million out of the Australian population of 26 million live in the 5 main cities - Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, Perth & Adelaide. This is not taking into account the other urban centers like Gold Coast or Canberra. So, even if the country is sparsely populated, almost the entire population is concentrated in a handful of big cities where most people barely drive long distances - which actually makes it an ideal EV market. So, if EVs are not able to thrive, there are other factors at play not related to geography.

Last edited by dragracer567 : 22nd November 2023 at 13:06.
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Old 22nd November 2023, 19:19   #13
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Re: India, Australia & few other counties at risk of becoming a dumping ground for high-polluting ca

India is constantly updating its regulation norms, with BS-6, RDE norms, and so on, So I don't think this will be a major factor automakers can take advantage of for a long time. Yes, we may be a few years behind Europe, China, and the USA in adopting EVs but we are getting there.

For a developing nation like ours, it isn't quite easy to transition to EVs all of a sudden, the infrastructure needs to be vastly improved, and more models need to come in for the change to materialize.
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