[merve_extreme]

Originally Posted by vasudeva

Old? .

2005 is old.

Do not know, but then 1.3 million must be some big percentage. MB sold 1.29 million in 2007, 1.25 million in 2006, and 1.22 million in 2005 (all figures incl. Smart). For the 2008 recall, it was 9004/12580

So according to you the 1.3 million vehicles recalled were lemons.
Do you really know which vehicle is called a lemon?

[vasudeva]

The 2005 recall of 1.3 million involved 2001-04 E, SL and CLS-Class models. The E-class sold around 0.3 million per annum during 2001-04, S-Class sold around 0.1 million per annum (incl. Maybach, SLR, SL, CL), C-CLASS sold around 0.45-0.47 million per annum. Figure it out, and it may be a significant proportion.

To be fair, recall figures by themselves do not mean much without knowing the nature and kind of recall. They may not affect the safety .

[merve_extreme]

A car that is recalled is not called a lemon.

A car that gives persistent problems when others of its type run free of these problems is called a lemon.

As we are now at ratio's

29000/35,226=82%.And this is for the LS.
Ratio's mean noting,it all depends on what is the cause of the problem.

[GTO]

See,here both IBM and the assembler uses the same components,IBM charges you 15K more for better assembly and Integration.Same goes for the builder.
An automobile is a completely different matter,the premium cars are much more complex than their cheaper counterparts.

Again, the question is NOT of complexity. It is of getting my moneys worth in terms of reliability. When a 5 lakh rupee car can run for 100K kilometers without failing engine mounts, air-conditioners, suspensions etc., why should I tolerate my 30 lakh sedan requiring these changes. I know a thing or two about complexity but no stats, clarifications or quality comments even amount to dog pile if the product cant hold up well, in the long term.

radar sensors.........People see this as a problem,but it is not,they don't bother to read their manuals.

Lets not deviate from the topic at hand. I am talking about simple engine mounts here...not technology-laden radar sensors. Talking about product familiarity has no relevance to the topic.

Do you feel any unusual vibrations from the car or some strange sounds etc.If yes then there may be an issue otherwise i won't trust a Mercedes dealer.40K Kms is little to premature for them to wear out,most last about 80K Kms but some have been known to fail early.Bad quality or bad road conditions,I'm not aware.

Gimme a break! Now you are getting road conditions into the picture? Man, my C Class has not been used in the National Rally Championship. And for the record, other cars transverse down the same urban roads for several more than just 40K kms to require an engine mount change.

To answer your question : Yes, I do feel engine vibrations and am convinced myself that the mounts have worn out.

Reliability yes,not 100% but they are improving at a great pace and are back from their worst in the late 90's and early 2000's.As for quality of the materials most articles i have read say that the quality is back to being among the best with the W221 S and W204 C (not my opinion as i haven't seen the interior).

I don't argue with the fact that they have improved. But the truth is, the improvement is still not enough. You have read articles that speak about the best quality. I am, and interact with actual owners. Therein lies the difference.

Also, the W221 & W204 articles only speak about material quality (interiors, switches, paint finish etc.) and NOT long-term reliability which my post is about. Apples to apples, Merve.

You can't expect a 100% turnaround with the same product as it cannot be completely reworked.The new C-class will give a better perspective where the turnaround stands.

The new S-Class, with its reliability failures, has already given me the best perspective. Again, this is based on information that is straight from the horses mouth (read : actual owners).

[merve_extreme]

Originally Posted by GTO

Gimme a break! Now you are getting road conditions into the picture? Man, my C Class has not been used in the National Rally Championship. And for the record, other cars transverse down the same urban roads for several more than just 40K kms to require an engine mount change.
To answer your question : Yes, I do feel engine vibrations and am convinced myself that the mounts have worn out.

See i told you, i dont know what caused your mounts to fails ,roads or quality.I just asked you to verify that they have failed.

I don't argue with the fact that they have improved. But the truth is, the improvement is still not enough. You have read articles that speak about the best quality. I am, and interact with actual owners. Therein lies the difference.

off course,you interact with them.But if your going down that road then one should never talk of cars other than the ones they own or have access to.Is that what your implying?

Also, the W221 & W204 articles only speak about material quality (interiors, switches, paint finish etc.) and NOT long-term reliability which my post is about. Apples to apples, Merve.

Merc's of the past were also criticized for their poor materials.

The new S-Class, with its reliability failures, has already given me the best perspective. Again, this is based on information that is straight from the horses mouth (read : actual owners).

I don't have access to all those facts so i cannot talk on those lines,i can only talk from what others who own Mercedes cars say on online MB forums.

[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by merve_extreme

I don't have access to all those facts so i cannot talk on those lines,i can only talk from what others who own Mercedes cars say on online MB forums.

Do you really know which vehicle is called a lemon?

In addition to the owners review on this forum, can you direct us to all the MB owners websites.

For definition of lemon also, since I do not know, can you enlighten us (if you are interested, that is).

[merve_extreme]

Originally Posted by vasudeva

In addition to the owners review on this forum, can you direct us to all the MB owners websites.
.

www.mbworld.org, Mercedes-Benz Forum and Mercedes Forum - Mercedes Benz Enthusiast Forums

These are the only ones i visit,if you want all, you can find out yourself.

For definition of lemon also, since I do not know, can you enlighten us (if you are interested, that is).

No I'm not interested,you can find it during your endeavor to find out all the Mercedes forums on the WWW.

[GTO]

Merve,

I am certainly not implying that information from articles / forums should be dismissed. However, data procured from Indian owners who drive their Indian-made Mercedes in Indian driving conditions is certainly more relevant? I am sure you'd agree?

Your signature and various posts show your affinity toward Mercedes-Benz. Dont get me wrong, I love their cars and am a huge fan of MB too. Heck, I will choose a Benz (in most cases) over direct competitors like BMW and Audi. However, I wont stop before calling a spade a spade and honestly outlining the pro's and con's.

Blind faith in any brand is not really befitting of us, and neither does it lead to high quality content.

[merve_extreme]

Originally Posted by GTO

Merve,

I am certainly not implying that information from articles / forums should be dismissed. However, data procured from Indian owners who drive their Indian-made Mercedes in Indian driving conditions is certainly more relevant? I am sure you'd agree?

Yes 100% relevant and accurate for the Indian scenario.

Your signature and various posts show your affinity toward Mercedes-Benz. Dont get me wrong, I love their cars and am a huge fan of MB too. Heck, I will choose a Benz (in most cases) over direct competitors like BMW and Audi. However, I wont stop before calling a spade a spade and honestly outlining the pro's and con's.

Blind faith in any brand is not really befitting of us, and neither does it lead to high quality content.

I agree that I'm biased towards Mercedes because i like them,but people seem to rate them much lower than where they actually are,reliability and quality wise,which is absolutely inappropriate.Also i'm extremely regretful if any of my posts have affected the quality of content on this forum in an adverse manner.

[GTO]

Not at all, dont worry about it. In fact, some heated Mercedes discussions brought out very valid points.

Lets try our best to maintain an unbiased stance. Cheers!

[DocG]

Originally Posted by merve_extreme

Yes 100% relevant and accurate for the Indian scenario.

I agree that I'm biased towards Mercedes because i like them,but people seem to rate them much lower than where they actually are,reliability and quality wise,which is absolutely inappropriate.

Ok let's move away from the "Indian" scenario for a second.
Having lived abroad for a very long time, most of which was in Singapore, where Mercs are/were extremely popular [Between 95-97 25% of the cars on the road were Mercs]

I would like to speak of their reliability there...Mercs were amongst the most UNRELIABLE vehicles! They literally broke down ever so often, I have had many friends whose cars used to go in for a service every 2-3 months!

Only exceptions were the cars S class and above, which lead me to believe that MB makes only their most expensive cars reliable...

Sorry, I am a BMW fanboy, but looking at this objectively, the quality of the MB cars, at least those sold in Singapore in the 90s was abysmal

I have owned 3 Mercs in the past, and even though they were much more reliable than the cars of the 90s, they weren't up to mark, my E30 [oldest car I own] and even XJ6 [Current car in Singapore] have proven more reliable than the Mercs....

Please don't bombard me with stuff off of various forums/heresay, this is just my past experience.
[Oh and the other cars which are totally unreliable at least in Singapore were the Jags...]

Oh and the new C class looks amazing, I remember sitting in it at the Auto Expo...looks way better than the 3 or the A4 IMO

[vasudeva]

The Merc C Class has now received the highest safety rating `G' from US-based IIHS. It is rated G in all safety parameters except for a lower `A' in injury measures-leg/foot, left. The link is here:

IIHS-HLDI: Mercedes C class

[nayakrnr]

thats good rating it seems.
but there seems to be lack of reviews on indian websites regarding new c class and i have come across only couple of them. i have not checked any auto magazines but i'am eager to know about general perception of new c class in india. is it going to survive?

[kalidas]

Originally Posted by GTO - Touring

Merve : JD Power accounts for dung when compared to actual ownership reviews. 17 actual S-Class owners (6 whom I know personally) have filled out our ownership reports and given it a below average rating on reliability. You really can't argue with the person who has paid 80 lakhs of his own hard earned cash for a car.

When you buy something like a s-class, the whole approach to expectations is hard to put in words. I agree with those owners and with JD Power too. Won't you expect a moon when you pay 80L for a car? And you won't get the moon for sure. And if that's not enough, think of how cool it is to complain about an 80L car, probably makes you sound richer isn't it

In buying anything, only the lower/middle and very higher ends are happy customers (no point complaining about a Lamborghini). Merc buyers should be a classic unhappy segment, particularly in places like the US. Customer satisfaction in that segment is a messy thing and achieving that has far more to it than just selling a great car, even one that is definitely among the best built upper market car ever. People who buy s-classes are not getting a dream-come-true car unlike those who buy Altos/Santros/Citys

[vasudeva]

After some months of quiet, I am sure this will stir up the bee's hornet again.

For whatever it is worth, and it may be biased or worthless to some people of Teutonic origin, JD Power's US VDS for 2008 has Lexus again at the top spot in 3 year reliability.
See here:

2008 Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) | J.D. Power and Associates

Followed by Mercury, Cadillac, Toyota, and Acura.

Interesting thing is that Merc was above industry average in 2007, but below it in 2008. Its PPV increased from 212 to 215. Lexus' PPV reduced from 145 to 120. Toyota 178 to 169. Another German name, VW improved from 298 to 253 though like Merc, it remains below the industry average.

To round up the testimony to the German engineering skills, Audi improved from 253 to 207 but still remained below average.

Amongst Japanese cars, Toyota, Mitsubishi, and Nissan recorded gains, as did Lexus. Honda slipped from 5th to 9th position, even as PPV increased from 169 to 177. Suzuki continued to occupy its usual 2nd last place ahead of Land Rover, though both the barrel huggers reported fewer problems.