[Rtech]

Originally Posted by Gurkha

Majority of Germans prefer Japanese cars, believe it or not, ...................even his German wife stays away from German cars.

Funny, but I heard exactly the opposite from my German colleagues. And if France is any indication of the rest of Europe, I'd have to agree with what they said.

I'm sure Deep, who lives in Paris, would confirm that the Jap's are desperately out-numbered there. Resale value, which is a good indication of how well a car is accepted in that market, of Japanese cars in Germany and France are extremely low. Chalk that up to their Nationalistic pride and Be French/German, Buy French/German, or something similar, but the fact remains that the Japanese have not made an impact into those markets as they did the American markets.

[navin]

GTO, in the 40's and 50's anything imported from Japan was considered cheap and unreliable but good VFM. We speak of China in the same breath today. I agree with you that 20-40 years from now this WILL change.

[Rtech]

On the China issue, I find the generalisation of Chinese products really funny when we consider that 90% of all the branded products we buy are made there. Pick up a pair of nike's - Made in China. Any cell phone - Made in China. Most Sony gizmo's - Made in China.

So obviously they are doing something right!

[RX135]

Originally Posted by Rtech

Funny, but I heard exactly the opposite from my German colleagues. And if France is any indication of the rest of Europe, I'd have to agree with what they said.

Yep. I stayed there for few months and most of the cars on road where either Merc, BMW, Audi or VW. Among my colleagues, most of them had german cars and only our consultant's wife had a Nissan. Among small cars, we used to see Ford Ka. There used to be a nice advt of Ka. May be because I was staying in Stuttgart, which is industrial hub of Germany. Even when we rented a car for weekend trip to Paris, we got a BMW.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by Rtech

On the China issue, I find the generalisation of Chinese products really funny when we consider that 90% of all the branded products we buy are made there. Pick up a pair of nike's - Made in China. Any cell phone - Made in China. Most Sony gizmo's - Made in China.

Add to the list: HP laptops - Made in China. Any PDA - Made in China. Most televisions/dvd players/music systems - Made in China. Panasonic Airconditioners - Made in China. ALL toys - Made in China.

For all you know, a lot of our automobile components are made there too. I found a lot of "Made in Singapore" and "Made in Korea" parts inside my Safari engine...wont be long before "Made in China" joins the list.

[Gurkha]

France is highly protective market, more so than Germans, Japanese and every other import are heavily taxed, Renault and Peugot are government subsidised heavily, Cadillac and Lexus costs twice as more than US.

The irony is that these same EU comes and tells us to open our markets and change our policies, hypocrites of first order, not to mention that European attitudes, perceptions are quite biased. Germans still think India is a land of snake charmers and tribes, they are surprised to hear that people in India use toothpaste. However, they still buy Toyota, Honda etc. unlike other parts of heavily protected Europe.

[Neel]

Well...you never know....a lot of stuff might be coming in from burma/thailand other asian countries....
May be India itself ...with the "Made in China" ..sticker!!

[ashran2]

Okay strange arguments by most of the folks here.

i am living sweden for past 15 years and yes here you cannot even spit without hitting a volvo or a SAAB and also the BMW and mercs and audi are much more common compared to japanese cars.

But the times are changing Japanese cars are a much respected lot imho but we also have to take on account that these European countries are the very genesis of cars specially germany italy and UK(ironically they dont have anymore of their own car companies). also there is also a lot of national pride over here, the simple matter of fact is only in europe can you a BMW or mercs which cost same or even cheap in some cases than toyota or mitsu's. Imho Honda has a totally different approach to making cars than any other company on this earth, no matter who says or what they know, honda is totally engineering oriented company run by engineers instead of marketing folks.

ps: the guy who said that german engineering is best needs to get his head examined there was a time when they were good i swear by old mercedes these cars are now upto almost 500,000km and still going strong wheras the new ones just stop working by 5000km.


bmw only has 7% market share in germany compared to toyota 15% and yes toyota also has the highest percentage of car market in scandinavia no other company comes close to that.(only in sweden are they at nr3)

ps: ==>> beemer ==>> if comfort and status are byproducts of good engineering than you are totally wrong imho the car reliability word did not even exist before the japanese came to the scene after that they have totally changed the car market forever thanks to their engineering. the reason being simple cheap cars reliable more efficient and more powerful what the cars of older years were.

ps: ferrari enzo(f60) is probably the greatest car of its time guess who designed and engineered it, yes a JAPANESE.

only in france the japanese are outnumbered because french cars are lot more cheap than the japanese. and french are very nationalistic people.

[The Wolf]

I am with Ashran2 completely...Whatever he has mentioned is probably exactly the same whatever my cousin bro had to say when he was down from Hamburg(Germany)...

Misconceptions galore...wake up fellow mates...ignorance isnt so bliss at times...!!!

p.s: NO offence to anybody.

[Beemer]

Originally Posted by ashran2

ps: ==>> beemer ==>> if comfort and status are byproducts of good engineering than you are totally wrong imho the car reliability word did not even exist before the japanese came to the scene after that they have totally changed the car market forever thanks to their engineering.

I agree that currently the reliability is an issue with the german cars but its not that they arent aware ,they very well know it and they are working on it and sooner or later in the coming years we ll find the same old reliability coz when they ve done it in the yesteryears why not now !
I know the technology has changed and their japenese rivals ve really brought their act together in the last decade or so but i guess
its just a matter of time before germans again start ruling the roost and i often find the sources on net indicating that they are working hard on it !

There's no denying to the fact that the solidity , sense of security germans provide you is far ahead than the japenese and if they adresses the issue of reliability(which they ll sooner than later) , there wont be any doubt in my mind that they are the best ....

[1Day]

Originally Posted by Beemer

I second drifter ,Germans are the best and IMO its may take ages for japanese to come even closer to the Germans engineering .

The funda is simple ....

Engine : japanese

comfort ,build quality ,safety ,sense of security ,status and so on ... : Germans .

Are you kidding me, all I do most of the week is test drive cars when I am not in the office..and I think my G is better than the 3, the M45 feels better than the 5, the new IS350 which I am going to be testdriving soon will surely out perform the 3 in luxury as does the G..I mean the list goes on..the only accolade germans have are the really high end where jap cars are going slowly with the LS600h and probably the GTR etc...so I really dont think germans are soo out there for japs in luxury and performance, they are neck and neck, just dont have enough products to compete at the same level.. and let me not get into reliabilty..

[amit]

This thread has been hijacked into a Jap v/s German thread which was not the objective at all!
Having gone through the comments, all i can say is, the average Indian's fascination with anything that starts with HO and TO continues! Most seem to have taken the comments that are not so flattering towards the Japanese personally! It's not like Honda and toyota are flawless. Both have had recalls in western countries, just that somehow the japs always manage to put to rest news of any recalls better then GM/ford etc. Fact remains, japanese cars are not a patch to drive compared to european cars. Also the build quality, and materials used even in luxury japs are not as good as ones used on lowly european cars like VW Lupo! BTW, the Nissan 350Z is considered to be a unreliable car here in Canada.
German's started getting unreliable from the time they started using too much of electronics on their cars. Their cars now are heavily laden with hi-tech electronic stuff. Funny thing is people expect German cars to be at the forefront of any new technologies. When Mercedes showed off the new S class in Frankfurt, everyone wanted to know what new innovation the car had. No-one expects any such stuff from lexus, Acura or Infiniti. Anyway, at the end of the day noone makes bad cars today. There are some strengths that Japs have and some strengths that Germans and other europeans have. If you are the sort who likes solid build, superb ride quality and handling, classy and quality interiors and mateials, supreme ergonomics, fun to drive and such stuff go for germans. If you want a point A to B car go for Japanese.
I have already had 2 guys who test drove a Japanese car and then drove a VW and ended up buying the VW cuz they said the Japanese cars were no patch on the German VW's.
P.S. One of the japanese cars was a Acura TSX.

[Rtech]

Ok, back on the topic guys. There is another thread about the German's vs the rest of the world.

[Beemer]

Originally Posted by 1Day

Are you kidding me, all I do most of the week is test drive cars when I am not in the office..and I think my G is better than the 3, the M45 feels better than the 5, the new IS350 which I am going to be testdriving soon will surely out perform the 3 in luxury as does the G..I mean the list goes on..the only accolade germans have are the really high end where jap cars are going slowly with the LS600h and probably the GTR etc...so I really dont think germans are soo out there for japs in luxury and performance, they are neck and neck, just dont have enough products to compete at the same level.. and let me not get into reliabilty..

I think amit has said it all .....

[1Day]

Originally Posted by amit

This thread has been hijacked into a Jap v/s German thread which was not the objective at all!

This i agree it shouldnt have become, but I would like to comment on few things you said..

Having gone through the comments, all i can say is, the average Indian's fascination with anything that starts with HO and TO continues! Most seem to have taken the comments that are not so flattering towards the Japanese personally! It's not like Honda and toyota are flawless. Both have had recalls in western countries, just that somehow the japs always manage to put to rest news of any recalls better then GM/ford etc. Fact remains, japanese cars are not a patch to drive compared to european cars. Also the build quality, and materials used even in luxury japs are not as good as ones used on lowly european cars like VW Lupo!

Well I am not like your average India there, after living in states, I have come to realise there is no car manufacturer whoes reliability comes close to that of the Jap manufacturers, but I personally hate Hondas and Toyotas or HOs and TOs like you put them...They surely arnt flawless, but they have recalls that are less in number than most other manufacturers of the world..Germans are known for the worst reliability in the US..i can tell you with personal experience, my friend owns a 330, it had a habbit of dropping the windows to the bottom of the door and would cost 500$ per window to fix, the same issue with his dad's 7 and his mom's 6, all there cars rattle as if they are american sub 10k cars..the 7 series door handle came into his hand when he was opening it..I mean I can go on and on ...but wouldnt, I know german cars are awesome design, but to say they are better made in terms of quality is pretty naive...We have owned and still own 2 mercdes at home, the S and the E and I would sadly compare them to my lowly G, yes the build quality of a 80k and 50k car to my 35k jap and let me not get intot he drive, my car is a far superior ride to both in terms of handling...I dont hate german car, I infact love most until they start showing their true colors, I think japs are getting better and will probably have better cars with more luxury, fit and finish than most germans..they just need to expand their lineup..(and i am only talking higher end japs)

BTW, the Nissan 350Z is considered to be a unreliable car here in Canada.

I dont know how canadians drive, but surely in the US the 350Z is not considered unreliable, actually far from it...I can say all VWs are more unreliable than some american cars today..

German's started getting unreliable from the time they started using too much of electronics on their cars. Their cars now are heavily laden with hi-tech electronic stuff. Funny thing is people expect German cars to be at the forefront of any new technologies. When Mercedes showed off the new S class in Frankfurt, everyone wanted to know what new innovation the car had. No-one expects any such stuff from lexus, Acura or Infiniti.

Sure, but that is no excuse that since you are putting high tech gizmos in the car they become unreliable..if you cant produce it to spec, then dont bother putting it in, and if you are putting it in, then bother to make it closer to flawless than flawed..

I agree people mostly look towards mercedes for new high tech equipment and why not, they can afford to spend that kind of money since they do rip off their customers, if you think any of the germans are worth their price tag think again..but its just that their status and appeal around the world have achieved a status that even after knowning its probably going to be flawed, I want my dad to get the new S....its an X factor which is keeping the mercedes brand name alive and as for BMW, only some driving dynamics, thats about it..as for luxury go see some new higher end japs, their materials used are of higher grade..

Anyway, at the end of the day noone makes bad cars today. There are some strengths that Japs have and some strengths that Germans and other europeans have. If you are the sort who likes solid build, superb ride quality and handling, classy and quality interiors and mateials, supreme ergonomics, fun to drive and such stuff go for germans. If you want a point A to B car go for Japanese.
I have already had 2 guys who test drove a Japanese car and then drove a VW and ended up buying the VW cuz they said the Japanese cars were no patch on the German VW's.
P.S. One of the japanese cars was a Acura TSX.

I think this presumption of yours is like many other around the globe no wonder flawed germans are still busy counting the $$

and your friend really made a poor deal I would say, I wouldnt even pick a phaeton over a TSX...(not really, but still you know what i mean) TSX is a great car and the only car probably you can compare it to in the VW lineup is jetta and that is such an ugly car, with hardly a better drive if that...

actually this is the reason why people still consider 911 to be a better drive than a vette, when it really isnt, until you compare the interior quality and that too with 1/2 the money saved could be made to look like the bentley..