[4x4addict]

@cesc:

From a laymans perspective, what you are saying makes sense about protecting the local industry. But the price difference vs should be kept in such a way makes Indian automobile companies want to compete with imports. For example, Right now the duty structure is so high Tata and Mahindra know that if you have a 10 lakh budget for an SUV, you will have to go to either one of them and hence they will keep pushing 10+ year platforms. Let us say the duty was 25% or even 50%, then the price differential will be small enough for a buyer to consider an imported option. This will make the Indian auto companies earn their money by giving us quality products.

[Cesc]

Originally Posted by chncar

Also, despite US manufacture, there is a good constituency of rednecks who will still not buy a foreign brand, especially for pickup trucks.

Absolutely agree.

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

@cesc:

From a laymans perspective, what you are saying makes sense about protecting the local industry. But the price difference vs should be kept in such a way makes Indian automobile companies want to compete with imports. For example, Right now the duty structure is so high Tata and Mahindra know that if you have a 10 lakh budget for an SUV, you will have to go to either one of them and hence they will keep pushing 10+ year platforms. Let us say the duty was 25% or even 50%, then the price differential will be small enough for a buyer to consider an imported option. This will make the Indian auto companies earn their money by giving us quality products.

I agree with your thoughts. Also I view the fault lying equally with the market and the competetive forces therein. It is all changing though. The particular segment that you are referring to is perhaps towards the bottom end of the competetive spectrum. The small-car/hatch segment has now become pretty competetive, we are seeing increasing competetion in the entry level sedan segment as well as in the mid-level sedan segment. The SUV space (and therein particularly the entry-level SUV space) along with the full sedan segment are the ones that desperately need more competetion. Less competetion allows companies to price their products above fair market prices. The 3 series/C class should be at least 20% cheaper in my opinion. We are beginning to see the effects there as well though. It's all a matter of time.

Back to the topic. Toyota might finally be seeing light at the end of the tunnel in the US market. With tests all but confirming that manufacturing defects had a small role to play in the overall scheme of things the pressures on the company should ease a bit more. I still get the feeling that some lasting mid-term damage has been done to Toyota though. Market share once lost is a very difficult thing to gain back. Specially from competetors who are improving.

[mxx]

The reason why it hit headlines is because toyota says its USP is quality and reliability. So, what is wrong when it is pulled up when it fails in these. After all, this started because of around 90 dead souls. That is not IMO inconsequential.
Eg: see the latest with lexus, supposed to be their luxury brand
BREAKING: Toyota admits 270,000 cars have faulty engines worldwide — Autoblog

Now the problems with toyota was not reported just in US but elsewhere too. So, I dont think it is a yankee conspiracy

Finally when the toyota president itself admitted to the serious quality issues, I dont understand why we have this useless discussions here.
BBC News - Toyota president says recall-hit firm 'grew too fast'
Toyota President Admits Quality Decline Began in 2003 - KickingTires

Originally Posted by chncar

Also, despite US manufacture, there is a good constituency of rednecks who will still not buy a foreign brand, especially for pickup trucks.

I think that is a good thing about them that they(americans) buy american brands.

[pgsagar]

Don't know what is the motive of this thread. Why are these guys going so gaga over Toyota brand name?

At least the American rednecks are patriotic enough to patronize their national brands. And Toyota quality? Compare Innova with Scorpio. Scorpio beats Innova hollow on looks, performance, power, price. So what is all this noise about Toyota?

[Cesc]

While I am definitely NOT a Toyota fan (and to acertain that one can go through my posts) I still feel a reply is in order here.

Originally Posted by mxx

The reason why it hit headlines is because toyota says its USP is quality and reliability. So, what is wrong when it is pulled up when it fails in these. After all, this started because of around 90 dead souls. That is not IMO inconsequential.
Eg: see the latest with lexus, supposed to be their luxury brand
BREAKING: Toyota admits 270,000 cars have faulty engines worldwide — Autoblog

Now the problems with toyota was not reported just in US but elsewhere too. So, I dont think it is a yankee conspiracy

Finally when the toyota president itself admitted to the serious quality issues, I dont understand why we have this useless discussions here.
BBC News - Toyota president says recall-hit firm 'grew too fast'
Toyota President Admits Quality Decline Began in 2003 - KickingTires

We are discussing a recent development related to Toyota quality issues. I don't think anybody here is denying that Toyota had quality issues.

The article clearly mentions that a fair number of the dead souls you are mentioning were driver errors.

Also - you just contributed to what you have called a 'useless discussion'

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Don't know what is the motive of this thread. Why are these guys going so gaga over Toyota brand name?

It's a free country and this is a public board. We can discuss what we like as long as it conforms to board rules. If you can't fathom the motive of the thread then you are free to ignore it. And who are 'these guys' going gaga over the Toyota brand?

Originally Posted by mxx

I think that is a good thing about them that they(americans) buy american brands.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

At least the American rednecks are patriotic enough to patronize their national brands.

Since when did buying only domestic company goods became a virtue and buying foreign brands became unpatriotic? Especially when the so called foreign brands employ thousands in your home country and generate incomes totalling billions of dollars. Going by that logic, in our country nobody should have bought Maruti Suzuki for 15 years and even today people should only buy Tata and Mahindra vehicles. And hey don't buy Pepsi, Coke and Lays as well. Not to mention Gillete razors, jockey undergarments, a pair of Levis/Wrangler/Lee etc. etc. I really hope you guys are virtous enough to practice the ideas you preach.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Compare Innova with Scorpio. Scorpio beats Innova hollow on looks, performance, power, price. So what is all this noise about Toyota?

What's with the Innova vs Scorpio comparison? Do you realize that one is a MUV and the other a SUV? Perhaps the right product to compare here might be Xylo vs Innova. The market decides who beats what. Every vehicle has a need to satisfy. The number of buyers of a vehicle reflects if it is a success or not. As I see it, Innova sells upwards of 4k units each month. For a car that costs upwards of 8 lakhs that's quite a lot.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

So what is all this noise about Toyota?

Where is the 'noise about Toyota' that you are referring to?

[nikhil3456]

I think the main point of the article is to correct the people who suspected that 'electronics' were responsible for the accidents. The article only says electronics were not blame, but mechanical problems and driver errors both together. Mechanical problems still underline Toyota's quality issues.

To quote from the article:

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration told members of Congress in a briefing today that human error was to blame in more than half of the 58 cases it reviewed -- since drivers failed to apply the brakes.

Trapped or sticky gas pedals were to blame in the remainder of accidents for which a cause was identified.

The Japanese automaker has repeatedly insisted that electronics aren't to blame, and that mechanical problems or driver error are responsible for thousands of reports of unintended acceleration. The findings may bolster the company's argument.

Toyota's "own vehicle evaluations have confirmed that the remedies it developed for sticking accelerator pedal and potential accelerator pedal entrapment by an unsecured or incompatible floor mat are effective," the company said.
Toyota emphasized that after "more than 4,000 on-site vehicle inspections, in no case have we found electronic throttle controls to be a cause of unintended acceleration.

Peace!

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Hi TeamBhpians,

Recently there has been a lot of hype especially in the US market about Toyotas Quality Control Woes and the deadly self acceleration claim. Some people on this forum has been using these news articles to slam Toyota for models sold in India, which btw are mostly tried and tested models for the most part.

I came across this article in Detroit news where the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has found no evidence that faulty electronics caused these cases.

Some excerpts from the Article.

Read more in the article from the link below.

NHTSA has reviewed data from 58 vehicle black boxes, known formally as event data recorders.

The research "so far has not led to the identification of safety defects other than sticking gas pedals or pedal entrapment," according to NHTSA's report to Congress, obtained by The Detroit News.

But NHTSA emphasized that the probe is ongoing -- along with help from NASA -- and investigators "are continuing to study whether there are potential electronic or software defects in these vehicles."

Of the 58 cases studied, 35 event recorders showed no brake was applied -- a sign the driver hit the wrong pedal.

Partial braking was noted in 14 cases: Brakes were applied late in the crash sequence in nine cases; early in three; and mid-crash in two.

Pedal entrapment was involved in one incident; and in one case, the brakes and gas pedal both were depressed.

Data was inconclusive in one case; there was no data in five; and data from a separate incident was presented in one case.

Toyota said in a statement that NHTSA's results backed its findings.

From The Detroit News: NHTSA: No evidence of Toyota electronics problems | detnews.com | The Detroit News

[mxx]

Originally Posted by Cesc

While I am definitely NOT a Toyota fan (and to acertain that one can go through my posts) I still feel a reply is in order here.

I dont know if you are a Toyota fan or foe, but you seem to be trying hard to defend them.
But I request, please dont bend my arguments to do that, while categorically ignoring some points.

Originally Posted by Cesc

We are discussing a recent development related to Toyota quality issues. I don't think anybody here is denying that Toyota had quality issues.

The article clearly mentions that a fair number of the dead souls you are mentioning were driver errors.

Can you tell me where I have told that toyota was at fault for these deaths? Let me quote my earlier post you were mentioning
"After all, this started because of around 90 dead souls. That is not IMO inconsequential. "
Does this mean statement mean toyota was responsible?
All I was mentioning was the media scrutiny started after these deaths.

Originally Posted by Cesc

Also - you just contributed to what you have called a 'useless discussion'

Please dont make this personal and pass sarcastic comments.

Originally Posted by Cesc

Since when did buying only domestic company goods became a virtue and buying foreign brands became unpatriotic? Especially when the so called foreign brands employ thousands in your home country and generate incomes totalling billions of dollars. Going by that logic, in our country nobody should have bought Maruti Suzuki for 15 years and even today people should only buy Tata and Mahindra vehicles. And hey don't buy Pepsi, Coke and Lays as well. Not to mention Gillete razors, jockey undergarments, a pair of Levis/Wrangler/Lee etc. etc. I really hope you guys are virtous enough to practice the ideas you preach.

Why is it not a good virtue? The big 3 were building suv and trucks which the american customers loved. So, when they have good options from their own country why should they not buy it? Why are you bringing pepsi, coke, wrangler into the picture? I dont understand what is the relationship between these and what I have said. Did I say, everyone should buy local products? Definitely I did not. You have so over-reacted to this, I have no clue why.

[Cesc]

Originally Posted by mxx

I dont know if you are a Toyota fan or foe, but you seem to be trying hard to defend them.

Could you point out where have I tried to defend Toyota (let alone tried hard)? Make realistic statements pal.

Originally Posted by mxx

But I request, please dont bend my arguments to do that, while categorically ignoring some points.

Where did I bend your arguments? And what did I ignore? I quoted (and replied to) your post in its entirety so I am definitely not picking and choosing here.

Originally Posted by mxx

Can you tell me where I have told that toyota was at fault for these deaths? Let me quote my earlier post you were mentioning
"After all, this started because of around 90 dead souls. That is not IMO inconsequential. "
Does this mean statement mean toyota was responsible?
All I was mentioning was the media scrutiny started after these deaths.

And all I mentioned was what the article said - that a significant number of those deaths were driver errors. Nowhere did I say that you held Toyota responsible.

Originally Posted by mxx

Please dont make this personal and pass sarcastic comments.

When you say 'I don't understand why we have this useless discussion' then aren't you making a derogatory statement towards people participating in this discussion? And how does my highlighting your participation in a discussion that is useless by your own words become personal and sarcastic?

Originally Posted by mxx

Why is it not a good virtue? The big 3 were building suv and trucks which the american customers loved. So, when they have good options from their own country why should they not buy it? Why are you bringing pepsi, coke, wrangler into the picture? I dont understand what is the relationship between these and what I have said. Did I say, everyone should buy local products? Definitely I did not. You have so over-reacted to this, I have no clue why.

Your original statement was this:

Originally Posted by mxx

I think that is a good thing about them that they(americans) buy american brands.

Doesn't that clearly say that it is a good thing to buy local? So what wrong did I do by bringing coke/pepsi and wrangler into the picture by way of analogies?

And where in the world did I say that American customers should not buy what they love? Where are you trying to take this?

And lastly, I have not over-reacted to anything. I have clearly stated my position on the topic while at the same time responded to your calling it a 'useless discussion'. I see a lot of thing which according to me have no point of discussion but I am tolerant enough to understand that they have a point for somebody else. So I don't jump into those discussions calling them useless.

[CARDEEP]

Yes Toyota had its problems with QC in US due to which they had the sticky pedal problem. But, no doubt it was blown out of proportion because of Toyota's status as the #1 manufacturer & them overtaking GM & all others, which majority of whites from the West could not accept. Due to this there was bad press & US Govt for the Toyota.
IMO, other manufacturers got away despite their products having major problems than what Toyotas had.
Add to this there is a tendency amongst the Americans to file a lawsuit for huge compensation (s) for nothing, & almost all cases of electronics not working properly were because of the greed of the stupid Americans.

In the end truth has prevailed & I have not doubt that Toyota will come stronger from this episode (something the US & European firms will find difficult to match to).

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

Yes Toyota had its problems with QC in US due to which they had the sticky pedal problem. But, no doubt it was blown out of proportion because of Toyota's status as the #1 manufacturer & them overtaking GM & all others, which majority of whites from the West could not accept. Due to this there was bad press & US Govt for the Toyota.
IMO, other manufacturers got away despite their products having major problems than what Toyotas had.

Isn't that the side effect of being number one? The higher you are, the harder you fall.

[prince_pervez]

Since a long time now Toyota Adverts are doing rounds now on TV here where people who are old customers of Toyota still swear about its reliability. I am sure people will move on and select the best amongst the lot be it a Ford or a Chevorlet or a Toyota. Americans buying only American products is something unheard of. They are rational people and go by their calculations and decide what is best for them. My manager who served in the Army, has a Honda and a Prius. There are many other examples.

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Isn't that the side effect of being number one? The higher you are, the harder you fall.

No, I do not agree.
It the side effect of being pale skinned, & being better than the whites. This is plane RACISM buddy.
Thank God, the investigators appointed by US had some common sense & better IQ than average Americans.

In fact, Toyota's problems compounded when it gave-up joint production facility of small cars with GM. And how come GM cars from the same manufacturing facility had no problems or like what the US press made us believe.

Believe me the Prius was being targeted (for electrical problems) because of Chevy's Volt. It could be a good car, but isn't the Prius the torch-bearer of green motoring & GM want this coveted tag from Toyota by hook or by crook, which can ensure instant success for the car.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

No, I do not agree.
It the side effect of being pale skinned, & being better than the whites. This is plane RACISM buddy.

I don't think Toyota would have been the largest car company in the world and America its most important market. Europeans hardly buy any Toyota's.

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

Thank God, the investigators appointed by US had some common sense & better IQ than average Americans.

You are underestimating Americans. Just look at the number of innovations and new companies coming from USA in the past and now and you will understand. Making the world's best talent to work for you is also a skill.

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

In fact, Toyota's problems compounded when it gave-up joint production facility of small cars with GM. And how come GM cars from the same manufacturing facility had no problems or like what the US press made us believe.

So you are saying that GM colluded with the press, NHTSA and the government just so that it could get a one up on Toyota? Isn't it very hard for a company which was almost on the brink of bankruptcy just a couple of years back and a company in which the highest share holder is the US treasury department?

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

Believe me the Prius was being targeted (for electrical problems) because of Chevy's Volt. It could be a good car, but isn't the Prius the torch-bearer of green motoring & GM want this coveted tag from Toyota by hook or by crook, which can ensure instant success for the car.

Has Prius ceased to exist? Has Cameron Diaz stopped driving her Prius? No. The confidence has obviously been dented but it isnt permanent. In the long run Volt will not sell because Prius has problems but if its a product which people feel is a viable replacement or better. In anycase your argument is very weak.

Also, please give credit to other car makers which are now making cars which are as good in reliability and far better and involving to drive. A perfect example is Ford which is a big player both in US and Europe.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by mxx

Finally when the toyota president itself admitted to the serious quality issues, I dont understand why we have this useless discussions here.

Exactly. It's too late for conspiracy theories. they are completely redundant. Lok at what Toyota themselves have said.

I'm no expert on Japanese culture, haven't even been there, but I worked for a Japanese company in London for eleven years, and I know this: You do not easily get an admission of fault, let alone an apology, out of a senior Japanese executive.

[WhiteKnight]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Isn't that the side effect of being number one? The higher you are, the harder you fall.

Couldn't agree more. It just means that the higher you are, marketing and ads won't help you. PR does.

Also the higher you are, you shall have more money to buy yourself out too

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

No, I do not agree.
It the side effect of being pale skinned, & being better than the whites. This is plane RACISM buddy.

First it is Politics, then religion, now automobile extremism

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

And how come GM cars from the same manufacturing facility had no problems or like what the US press made us believe.

Good question. How come?

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

Believe me the Prius was being targeted (for electrical problems) because of Chevy's Volt. It could be a good car, but isn't the Prius the torch-bearer of green motoring & GM want this coveted tag from Toyota by hook or by crook, which can ensure instant success for the car.

Evil GM, you mean like Darth Vader? An evil and near bankrupt GM trying to attack a helpless poor and lonely Toyota, which is incidently ranked 6th in Fortune Global 500 with >200 Billion revenue. And the WhiteKnight playing hide and seek. What a pity