[vb-saan]

Characters like Schumacher makes the sport much more interesting. And seeing Anachronix's signature, I kind of miss the Iceman on the track!

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by VW2010

If Red-bull can deliver a car that is faster and better than others, why crib about FIA regulation on spending and testing. Redbull has developed a better car.

Redbull has developed a great car, I should be really insane to say that they dint.

What I am saying is, without the in-season testing if a team gets their car wrong in start of the season its going to be difficult for them to make any recovery.

Jean Todt himself has agreed that its a rule that needs to be looked at and I am sure in-season testing will be back by 2012. Its going to be a different game then!

Now back to the topic. Yes seeing Schumi win is a great site. But we have to accept and move on that he cannot drive faster than the younger generation and is more desperate. We just saw how "Novice"like driving he did the other day and lost his chance of finishing in some points.

I am sure Vettel or even Hamilton in the current mercedes will outpace both Nico and Schumi and that says a lot about a driver.

Where was Hamilton in 2009 with a bad car or where was Alonso while he was at Renault in 2008 & 2009?

Gone are the days when a driver was equally important like the car!

[good.car-ma]

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

One liner flying comments is not what we need here.

Kindly contribute to the topic.

We have seen him playing the PIVOTAL role in developing Mercedes GP through from the time they started. Schumi has always referrs and quotes his team to the Press as "WE" unlike Nico who says "I"

Nico has been getting added packages to his car which basically is working well for him, considering the last seasons result, Schumi ended very close to Nico.

Schumacher admits the joy is no longer there - Times Of India

Lets read the article better than "Read Between the Lines"

There is that aggressiveness and Hunger, but sadly his car is not responding to his driving style.

Yes, he's past his prime, but he still has what it takes to be the top contender, but its not the case with his car.

Michael says WE and not I!! Lets ask Rubens about his love for team-mates shall we?

Merc have not been adding packages only to Nico's car. Contrary to that, they have been going out of the way to develop the car to suit Michael's driving style.

Also, he was nowhere close to Nico last season. It was as if they were driving different cars (even the points table says so) and sadly that is continuing this year. Let us be objective in the discussion however much one admires the man.

It has and always been a combination of car and driver to succeed in F1. Occasionally you get a brilliant driver extracting more out of a car a-la Kubica or a mediocre driver achieving results with a brilliant car, like Barrichello at Ferrari. Credit to Schumacher for capitalising on Ferrari's dominance and adding his skill towards the victories but it is now beyond doubt that he was in the best cars at the right time and it was probably more car than driver.

Age is of no concern since the best raced in their 40s such as Fangio and Ascari. However, after being used to dominating in a brilliant car, I doubt he has the ability to balance (i) maintaining a reputation (ii) fighting a superior teammate (iii) competing with new rules, regs and car behaviour...while (iv) developing the MGP cars to be competitive.

Considering all this Merc would be well suited to bring in a youngster like Sutil or Di Resta or even Hulkenberg so that they can concentrate on just (ii) and (iv)


Sorry for the long post

[GTO]

Retrospect is always the genius. It's easy to say, in 2011, that Schumy is too old and shouldn't have come back. On the other hand, if he'd be winning races with Brawn right now, we'd be applauding his "come back".

As the most loyal Schumacher fan, I have to admit....I was as excited about his comeback, as I am disappointed right now. Time & tide indeed wait for nobody. This is the first time that Schumy is being consistently beaten by his team-mate. And whatever anyone says about "packages", sorry but the writing is on the wall. Rosberg IS quicker than Schumy today and there are no two sides to it. Be it qualifying pace or in the race.

I wouldn't be surprised if Schumacher hangs his boots end of this season, or if Mercedes / Brawn are actually putting pressure on him to retire too. 2010 & 2011 seasons aside, to me, Schumacher remains the greatest F1 driver ever.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

It has and always been a combination of car and driver to succeed in F1. Occasionally you get a brilliant driver extracting more out of a car a-la Kubica or a mediocre driver achieving results with a brilliant car, like Barrichello at Ferrari. Credit to Schumacher for capitalising on Ferrari's dominance and adding his skill towards the victories but it is now beyond doubt that he was in the best cars at the right time and it was probably more car than driver.

Do we really need to go back to Michael's history. The way he worked around the team to build a strong car for all the dominant times needs no proof. You are trying to make it sound too simple. Its funny when you say he capitalized on Ferrari's dominance. He actually worked for that dominance!

Age is of no concern since the best raced in their 40s such as Fangio and Ascari.

The average age of racers around Ascari/Fangio's decade was in the range of 35 to 50. What are you trying to prove here?

However, after being used to dominating in a brilliant car, I doubt he has the ability to balance (i) maintaining a reputation (ii) fighting a superior teammate (iii) competing with new rules, regs and car behaviour...while (iv) developing the MGP cars to be competitive.

Dominating in a brilliant car? Have you watched his drive in 1997 Spanish GP, JapansesGP of 97. Are you just throwing blanket statements to prove your point?

Considering all this Merc would be well suited to bring in a youngster like Sutil or Di Resta or even Hulkenberg so that they can concentrate on just (ii) and (iv)

May be...

[Hatari]

I dont think its a case of MS being slower, but the others becoming quicker over time and adapting better to the new F1. Today's race car drivers are far more mature than before. Racing has evolved quite a bit.

What he brings in terms of experience i.e. development direction, motivation for team members and race craft, is all pretty much negated if he is not quick enough. Which is what has been happening.

AND he is clearly not enjoying it.

Cmon Mercedes.. get Di Resta/Hulk in!

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by GTO

Retrospect is always the genius. It's easy to say, in 2011, that Schumy is too old and shouldn't have come back. On the other hand, if he'd be winning races with Brawn right now, we'd be applauding his "come back".

As the most loyal Schumacher fan, I have to admit....I was as excited about his comeback, as I am disappointed right now. Time & tide indeed wait for nobody. This is the first time that Schumy is being consistently beaten by his team-mate. And whatever anyone says about "packages", sorry but the writing is on the wall. Rosberg IS quicker than Schumy today and there are no two sides to it. Be it qualifying pace or in the race.

I wouldn't be surprised if Schumacher hangs his boots end of this season, or if Mercedes / Brawn are actually putting pressure on him to retire too. 2010 & 2011 seasons aside, to me, Schumacher remains the greatest F1 driver ever.

Completely agree on the Schumacher bit. Even though never a Schumi fan, I would love to see him doing a podium finish this year.

And on Rosberg. Even though he is gaining on Schumacher, he is not able to convert into podium finish. Either he is not good enough, or maybe there is something wrong with the Mercedes setup.

[good.car-ma]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Do we really need to go back to Michael's history. The way he worked around the team to build a strong car for all the dominant times needs no proof. You are trying to make it sound too simple. Its funny when you say he capitalized on Ferrari's dominance. He actually worked for that dominance!



The average age of racers around Ascari/Fangio's decade was in the range of 35 to 50. What are you trying to prove here?



Dominating in a brilliant car? Have you watched his drive in 1997 Spanish GP, JapansesGP of 97. Are you just throwing blanket statements to prove your point?



May be...

He definitely helped build Ferrari's dominance. the keyword is "helped". he was one of many many cogs in the wheel that built those invincible cars.

Regarding age, I'm trying to prove that just because he is 42 doesnt mean he has become useless. On the contrary, genius is ageless and I'm pretty sure he didnt wake up on his 41st birthday and find out that he cant compete. this is to counter the popular statement that "he is too old for f1"

Ferrari had a competitive car in 97, not a dominant one. thats why he competed but didnt dominate like he did in the 2001,2 or 4 seasons. In 97, he met his match in Villeneuve driving a good car. in 2003, he met his match in Raikkonen driving better than the mediocre (and old) mclaren. In 2005, the only race he won was where there were 6 racers. It is most definitley, dominance only in a car capable of dominating, not dominance in any given car.

What we are seeing is the Schumacher of 97, 2000, 03 and 05. Give him a Red Bull and we will see the Schumi of 2001,02,04. In other words, the skill hasnt gone away, so back to the 4 points I mentioned in my previous post

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

He definitely helped build Ferrari's dominance. the keyword is "helped". he was one of many many cogs in the wheel that built those invincible cars.

Regarding age, I'm trying to prove that just because he is 42 doesnt mean he has become useless. On the contrary, genius is ageless and I'm pretty sure he didnt wake up on his 41st birthday and find out that he cant compete. this is to counter the popular statement that "he is too old for f1"

Ferrari had a competitive car in 97, not a dominant one. thats why he competed but didnt dominate like he did in the 2001,2 or 4 seasons. In 97, he met his match in Villeneuve driving a good car. in 2003, he met his match in Raikkonen driving better than the mediocre (and old) mclaren. In 2005, the only race he won was where there were 6 racers. It is most definitley, dominance only in a car capable of dominating, not dominance in any given car.

What we are seeing is the Schumacher of 97, 2000, 03 and 05. Give him a Red Bull and we will see the Schumi of 2001,02,04. In other words, the skill hasnt gone away, so back to the 4 points I mentioned in my previous post

One of many cogs in the wheel! Ha ha

Let me leave it at what you believe, the world knows who all were there behind Ferrari's dominance!

You are talking about a decade when the driver sits on the car while on the grid with a cigar in his mouth, throws it away puts on his helmet and goes racing when he is at 40.

Now in 2011, coming back from China to Turkey if a driver doesn't workout specifically for his neck muscles for an anti-clockwise track he could end up his race with a broken neck! I really dont want to say this, but you are comparing apples & oranges!

However, he is an interesting fact for you!




When Michael won his championship with Benetton Ford, it was competitive car or a dominant car? What Michael was there in 1994 & 1995?

[good.car-ma]

Originally Posted by anachronix

One of many cogs in the wheel! Ha ha

Let me leave it at what you believe, the world knows who all were there behind Ferrari's dominance!

You are talking about a decade when the driver sits on the car while on the grid with a cigar in his mouth, throws it away puts on his helmet and goes racing when he is at 40.

Now in 2011, coming back from China to Turkey if a driver doesn't workout specifically for his neck muscles for an anti-clockwise track he could end up his race with a broken neck! I really dont want to say this, but you are comparing apples & oranges!

When Michael won his championship with Benetton Ford, it was competitive car or a dominant car? What Michael was there in 1994 & 1995?

Of course he was just a part of it. Surely you dont believe that Michael conceptualised, designed, machined, assembled and built the car as well!!

So what if the attitude was like that in the past? It doesnt mean that they needed any less skill. Probably more physical strength was required to control those monstrous engines and ill-handling tyres. Without the luxuries of power-assisted steerings and paddle shifts.

When Michael won in 1994 he definitely didnt dominate! he competed (whether fairly, each one has his opinion so lets not get into that) and won. A 1 pt win in 94 doesnt qualify as dominance and in 1995 - Benetton and Willams were definitely dominant. Of course, since Hill was intent on throwing the championship away and Coutlhard was inexperienced, there was only going to be one person to win and that was Michael, in a dominant car

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

Of course he was just a part of it. Surely you dont believe that Michael conceptualised, designed, machined, assembled and built the car as well!!

So what if the attitude was like that in the past? It doesnt mean that they needed any less skill. Probably more physical strength was required to control those monstrous engines and ill-handling tyres. Without the luxuries of power-assisted steerings and paddle shifts.

When Michael won in 1994 he definitely didnt dominate! he competed (whether fairly, each one has his opinion so lets not get into that) and won. A 1 pt win in 94 doesnt qualify as dominance and in 1995 - Benetton and Willams were definitely dominant. Of course, since Hill was intent on throwing the championship away and Coutlhard was inexperienced, there was only going to be one person to win and that was Michael, in a dominant car

When somebody tells you Adrian Newey is the man behind the success of Redbull, you would ask him if he was there machining, assembling and removing wheel nuts? Lets not make it too childish. Michael spent his time at Ferrari after he retired from F1 building road cars. If he was just a cog in the wheel he would be able to do it?

I was not talking about attitude of the 50's, I was talking about the fitness. The stats I had posted about the oldest champions in F1 should help you with some understand. Niki Lauda & Michael were the only champions from the recent decade and at the age of 35.

So the Benetton becomes a dominant car that let Michael win it? What happened to his team mate with that dominant car?

The F1 historians are going to be really angry if they see this thread

[Viper21]

I wasnt too keen on seeing Schumi return although he was my fave. In fact Ferrari has been my favorite racing team. i think Schumi and Ross Brawn made an excellent team and i believe this is one of the main reasons he came back to race for Brawn GP which was taken over by Mercedes . But i would love him to be on the podium one last time

Forgive me if my facts are off.....

[Kartik Krishnan]

"The Michael Schumacher camp has hit back at those who claim the seven-time World Champion is close to quitting the sport for good, saying "they should know better". Schumacher's manager Sabine Kehm has made it clear that the 42-year-old is not ready to leave Mercedes just yet."

Saw this on BBC Sport.

I guess he's still gonna be around, for a while at least!

[good.car-ma]

Originally Posted by anachronix

When somebody tells you Adrian Newey is the man behind the success of Redbull, you would ask him if he was there machining, assembling and removing wheel nuts? Lets not make it too childish. Michael spent his time at Ferrari after he retired from F1 building road cars. If he was just a cog in the wheel he would be able to do it?

I was not talking about attitude of the 50's, I was talking about the fitness. The stats I had posted about the oldest champions in F1 should help you with some understand. Niki Lauda & Michael were the only champions from the recent decade and at the age of 35.

So the Benetton becomes a dominant car that let Michael win it? What happened to his team mate with that dominant car?

The F1 historians are going to be really angry if they see this thread

Of course Adrian Newey is not the sole reason. Its every single chap who has put in effort. Newey is the representative of that effort, being a leader skilled enough to draw that out of his team. The other reasons are Horner, Vettel, even Webber, each and every engineer, machinist, pit mechanic, technician and of course Dietrich Mateschitz's banknotes. Its not childish. F1 is a total team sport and its actually childish to say that the face of all that effort - the driver is the sole factor

His teammate was Johnny Herbert and the less said about him the better, for whatever reasons. And its not as though teammates always end up close together is it. Last year's MGP points difference will support my point

Oh and just to add - you missed out Mansell and Prost in the list of "old" champions. Agreed that fitness is more the trend now than it was earlier but that doesnt mean any less fitness was required. Probably if James Hunt was as fit as one of the chaps today, he wouldve been a multiple world champion. But coming back to my point, age doesnt reduce ability.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

Of course Adrian Newey is not the sole reason. Its every single chap who has put in effort. Newey is the representative of that effort, being a leader skilled enough to draw that out of his team. The other reasons are Horner, Vettel, even Webber, each and every engineer, machinist, pit mechanic, technician and of course Dietrich Mateschitz's banknotes. Its not childish. F1 is a total team sport and its actually childish to say that the face of all that effort - the driver is the sole factor

For the same reasons read my quote from my previous post. I never mentioned anywhere it was only Michael. As a driver, he is best at giving his feedback to his engineers and its upto Ross Brawn & Rory Bryne to make the wonders with the car & finally Todt who put everything together on the track.

Originally Posted by anachronix

Let me leave it at what you believe, the world knows who all were there behind Ferrari's dominance!

His teammate was Johnny Herbert and the less said about him the better, for whatever reasons.

And we have this thread opened just because the same old Johnny let out his ranting on Michael to the media!

And its not as though teammates always end up close together is it. Last year's MGP points difference will support my point

Awesome dude! Ever thought about the point difference Michael had with his teammates from his debut in 1991

Oh and just to add - you missed out Mansell and Prost in the list of "old" champions. Agreed that fitness is more the trend now than it was earlier but that doesnt mean any less fitness was required. Probably if James Hunt was as fit as one of the chaps today, he wouldve been a multiple world champion. But coming back to my point, age doesnt reduce ability.

You need to get over this dude. Are you not aware of why Mansell retired the 2nd time?

A shoulder injury for the great Rossi has made him lose 5 tenths to 6 tenths and we are talking about fitness for a 42 year old F1 driver who has to go through a lot more stress!