[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by akshay380

1.6L Turbos from 2014?

Yes, that for new rules that kick in from 2014. The engines they are using now have been homologated atleast two or three seasons back and I think no team has spent any money on developing the current engine to deliver more power or more efficiency.

I guess they will introduce rules to freeze engine development with 1.6L turbos as well once all engine manufacturers achieve decent reliability (maybe it's already in the rules).

Originally Posted by asr245

Aero spoils overtaking producing some of the most boring races I have ever seen in aero tracks like Barcelona. That's the only reason why I am against it. And since it helps a car being pursued to produce "dirty air" they have no reason to "clean" it. Which is why mechanical grip is better.

But the teams will try to gain time by concentrating on those areas where they can gain more time by spending less. And I think aero is one such area. So even if FIA introduces rules to cut downforce, the teams will still rely on aero to regain all the lost downforce - and they invariably succeed in doing that - within 1 or 2 seasons.

[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by asr245

And with wider tyres and reduced wings it won't be the best machine out there? What about other parts of the car? Most importantly engine. I don't think it's the aerodynamics of an F1 car that mesmerizes most of the fans following F1. It's the speed.

There are other areas in the car which can be worked on. Too much stress has been put on aerodynamics.

I agree about the emphasis on aerodynamics, but it is a necessary evil. What good is speed if you can't put that speed down on to the tarmac? We have all seen how F1 cars take of the minute they loose either of their wings.

I watch F1 because I am fascinated by it's technology wings, engines, tyres, suspension etc.

I agree with StarrySky's opinion about downforce. Let's the FIA bans wings all together. You know what will happen? We will have entire cars shaped like wings then, no matter however ugly they may look. Look at this year's stepped nose for instance.

And I disagree with the FIA's stand that they will ban anything that will not benefit road cars. What sense does that make. F1 is a sport, treat it like one. What do we as humans take away from other sports like football, cricket, etc.? Besides their entertainment value, we do not take anything from them. So why should F1 be any different.

Ok I think we have gone way off topic on this thread. Request to any moderator. Please separate the last few posts into another thread about benefits of aero in F1 or something similar.

[F50]

Agree with Vikram on having a separate thread and all your points

FIA was successful in dethroning Michael Schumacher. Got in different rules like no tyre change. God sake, you were not competing with MotoGP.

Then No-Refuelling and DRS. It never made overtaking exciting. DRS is activated in one or two sectors and within 1sec of the following car. DRS helps only Vettel if he starts from 10th and makes his way to 1st but it will never favor Maldonado in similar scenario.
DRS is complete flop. Just makes the car in front a sitting duck!

I still support KERS. It can be used in road car technology but can DRS be used in road cars?

[VW2010]

@F50.

I have to say DRS wont help Vettel much. The car is supremely build aerodynamically that i can rarely use the effect of DRS. Cars like Mclaren and lotus will benefit from DRS but not RBR.

I hate the no re fuel rule. It was not just about driving then. More of stratergy. These days it does get a bit boring after 15 laps knowing the order may not change further. In fact i havent finished full race in the last two season for the same reason,

Used to skip weekend cricket to just watch F1 but now it is getting a bit more boring.

[deetjohn]

Originally Posted by asr245

Wouldn't poor traction actually create more problems in the rain?

The teams can afford to increase the wing on cars when it rains. And then, the onus is more on the driver than the machine when it is wet.

But it remains to be seen how the F2012 will behave on the Pirelli Cinturato on Sundays. So far, it looks like Ferrari has gone overboard in their quest for getting heat into the tyres quickly. And a drying track will eat away the greens. We will know all these in 4 days, if it rains.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

The teams can afford to increase the wing on cars when it rains. And then, the onus is more on the driver than the machine when it is wet.

But... without mechanical grip like what Stephano has confirmed how much can the aero help in wet conditions.

I agree, the driver makes a whole lot of difference but then its also the car that should behave like the driver wants right!?

[jalsa777]

Originally Posted by asr245

Wouldn't poor traction actually create more problems in the rain?

Exactly. I expect both the Ferrari's to have at least one off-track outing if its wet. Braking stability into low speed corners is a big problem for Ferrari.
Watch out of Turns 11 and 14. They will be tricky for Scuderia. Even Turn 15 (Last corner) might be bit of an issue.



Watch out for Massa. He is one late breaker, he loves it that way, and a loose rear is his worst nightmare. The main reason he has been struggling with Ferrari for the past couple seasons is because Ferrari just don't have decent rear end stability. (Not defending him, he should have adapted, but that is easier said than done)

Originally Posted by akshay380

And I somehow don't like it. This is like racing airplanes on tracks albeit inverted. Clip those wings and reduce tire width. Then we will see who is the best.

There are a lot of other series' for that. Watch the V8 Supercars series, or for that matter any Touring or GT cars series, you'll love them. (You can watch even the Polo R Cup and Super Saloon races live in India for free )

Originally Posted by StarrySky

Yes, that for new rules that kick in from 2014. The engines they are using now have been homologated at least two or three seasons back and I think no team has spent any money on developing the current engine to deliver more power or more efficiency.

Although the basic design of the engines haven't changed, there are a lot of developmental changes focused on increasing longevity. I don't have exact facts off-hand but i think the engines now have to last almost 3 weekends and the Gearboxes even more.

Originally Posted by vikram_d

And I disagree with the FIA's stand that they will ban anything that will not benefit road cars. What sense does that make. F1 is a sport, treat it like one. What do we as humans take away from other sports like football, cricket, etc.? Besides their entertainment value, we do not take anything from them. So why should F1 be any different.

They are doing this to retain the interest of Manufacturers. Its the Manufacturers money that is driving the sport, and if its not relevant to them they will start moving away. It is a purely financial decision.

Originally Posted by anachronix

But... without mechanical grip like what Stephano has confirmed how much can the aero help in wet conditions.

I agree, the driver makes a whole lot of difference but then its also the car that should behave like the driver wants right!?

Totally agree. It is very important that the car behaves in a predictable fashion for the driver to extract the maximum out of it.

Driving a racing car is a tedious task. One needs to keep making minuscule changes lap after lap to achieve that good lap time. But, if all the driver's focus is on keeping the car on the track and/or if the car behaves differently on the same input he cannot make those adjustments and hence will not achieve his maximum.

[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by anachronix

But... without mechanical grip like what Stephano has confirmed how much can the aero help in wet conditions.

I agree, the driver makes a whole lot of difference but then its also the car that should behave like the driver wants right!?

Aero can help generate whatever grip is being lost in the mechanical form by running higher down force setups, but this will be at the cost of speed and in the rain speed doesn't really matter.

As far as drivers are concerned, there are a few who can extract the best out of even a crap car. Case and point Fernando Alonso. I am a huge Michael fan but in this respect even he does not come close to Alonso.

@Jalsa777 - I agree with what you have said, but today even the manufacturers want the budget cap removed. Mercedes, Ferrari and heck even Red Bull wants the RRA removed. My opinion on this matter is that they should have an RRA for the benefit of smaller teams, but should introduce in season testing to make the series even more closer and exciting. To reduce costs of testing, they can have testing at locations where ever the next race is being held.

And for those who don't know the RRA is an Resource Reduction Agreement that has been signed by all F1 teams to cut costs.

[rajchetan]

Originally Posted by anachronix

A picture of the 6 Champions fighting this year from Melbourne

Attachment 905620

Funny thing about this Picture, of the 6 Champions the once who seem to be Down to earth and enjoy themselves come what may are Schumi, Vettel and Button.

Its clearly evident during interviews & Race days, the chemistry between Button & Vettel, Vettel & Schumi. The one who seems most out of Place is Hami.

Regarding Massa, i am sure he will bounce back, if Ferrari can sort out their Issues. Given the Fact, that Massa was the only one who actually pushed Schumi the most in his Form Days. And hence has the support of Ferrari as well.
But he must learn to work around the problems with Car, and not think of chasing Alonso, who i rate after Schumi as the best in making the most of the car.

Regarding Malaysian GP. If it rains,

Merc stands a good change for Pole, & could be strong for a big upset.
My money is on Schumi getting his first Podium since return.
RB & McLaren would be my contenders for Wins, irrespective of Rain or Sun.
Lotus would be serious treat to Merc.
Perez, Maldonado would be a strong contenders for top 10 finish.

Ferrari will struggle More, and might not make it in the top 10 with a car which is lacking traction, as well as direction & Also lack of top Speed.

Regarding Malaysian GP. If its Sunny,

Mclaren, Button to get the better of Hami again.
RB, with Vettel betting Webber
Merc stand a good change for Pole and Race win, with their superior Top Speed, But for race they might have to watch out for Tyre Ware.
Ferrari with Massa over Alonso (Massa always seems to go good at Malaysia and Turkey.. Add a new Chassis and his chances look better)
Lotus, Ice Man over Grosjean.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by vikram_d

Aero can help generate whatever grip is being lost in the mechanical form by running higher down force setups, but this will be at the cost of speed and in the rain speed doesn't really matter.

As far as drivers are concerned, there are a few who can extract the best out of even a crap car. Case and point Fernando Alonso. I am a huge Michael fan but in this respect even he does not come close to Alonso.

Again, aero is the current weakness of the Ferrari. I doubt the amount of flexibility the team would have in going for a high downforce aero setup!



Here is more information on the Ferrari troubles from AutoSprint translated by CrucialXtreme from Atlas F1

Here is a quick run down of the latest edition of AutoSprint on the Ferrari F2012:


AS 1
Alonso is "the miracle man", Massa is a problem. Ferrari needs two drivers who get points in every race, the more Alonso fights against the difficulties and gets point, the more Massa sink into difficulties. Between their fastest lap during the race there's 1.6 seconds of gap.
There's also 1 second of gap in the quali even if Massa used both sets of soft tyres.
Masssa complained all weekend.

AS 2
Last year Massa said he couldn't heat the tyres, this year he "destroys" the tyres after few laps.
But choosing his substitute is much difficult due the performance of the F2012.

AS3 Fernando is thiner, more thoughtful, Alonso got a 5th place in Melbourne only due to favorable circumstances like restarts.

AS 4
Speed problem:
This is a serious problem, many people say this is caused by the incidence angle of the wings but it isn't the only reason.

Balance problem
This is one of the most important problems, Ferrari says it's caused by the marbles who obstruct the diffuser. But if they are right even the other teams should have the same problems.
There's a big pitch so: can they solve this issue only with aereodynamic changes? Can pull-rod front suspension influence badly the balance? Fry says all is ok but in Sepang Ferrari will suffer a lot due to excessive tyres wear.

AS 5
In May a new version of the F2012 will arrive in Barcellona, they are going to use the original configuration of the exhausts system which is the most efficient but in this way the tyres are heated too much.
Ferrari has changed his exhausts system at the last moment so there is a big part of the bodywork which is unused and causes drag. Also, modifing the sidepods is very difficult because they have to change the resonance waves of the engine.
Domenicali hopes they will have new solution in China & Bahrain. But on the other hand, Ferrari is the fastest in the pit-stops and the F2012 can make very good starts.

One more page to translate... Coming shortly


edit: Rumors from reliable Spanish sources say that after the intense meeting in Maranello yesterday it was decided that some new parts would be taken to Malaysia. They do not know how successful the parts will be, but are being taken regardless.

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by jalsa777

Although the basic design of the engines haven't changed, there are a lot of developmental changes focused on increasing longevity. I don't have exact facts off-hand but i think the engines now have to last almost 3 weekends and the Gearboxes even more.

I think the rules regarding how many weekends an engine should last haven't changed in the last 2-3 seasons. Stable engine rules would be one of the prerequisites to have an engine development freeze. Otherwise, the teams would spend money to enhance engine performance and not just reliability. I think engine manufacturers are now allowed to make only reliability-related changes (if they have reliability issues) to the engine and it also requires consent from all others to make any changes. The last such change that I know of was at the beginning of 2010 season IIRC when Renault made some change to their engine. I don't know if there have been others which have not been widely reported.

[F50]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

I think the rules regarding how many weekends an engine should last haven't changed in the last 2-3 seasons. Stable engine rules would be one of the prerequisites to have an engine development freeze. Otherwise, the teams would spend money to enhance engine performance and not just reliability. I think engine manufacturers are now allowed to make only reliability-related changes (if they have reliability issues) to the engine and it also requires consent from all others to make any changes. The last such change that I know of was at the beginning of 2010 season IIRC when Renault made some change to their engine. I don't know if there have been others which have not been widely reported.

Maximum 8 engines per season and one gear-box to last not more than 5 consecutive races.

[vikram_d]

If I remember correctly the rule for engine and gearboxes is that the engine must last 3 races and the gearbox 5 races.

[Fullrevs]

Massa lost all his speed after this qualifying crash at Hungary in 2009. I have not seen the same cheerful guy ever since. I think its curtains for him. Ferrari are dignified enough to let him race the entire season. Come 2013, i think Sergio Perez will make his way to Ferrari. He has been loaned to sauber in any case. There are rumours that since hamiltons contract with Mclaren runs out this season, he may call Montezemolo for a job at scuderia. But will Alonso have any of it???

Its a pity that the Ferrari looks so pathetic in qualifying and race trim. How did they get so much worse than they were? Nando is in prime form, he deserves a title winning car. Which makes me wonder, had he not fallen out with mclaren, he could have been a 4-5 time champion by now!

Tropical weather at Sepang. If it rains, its going to be red flags!!! Its an absolute deluge out there during the monsoon.

[vikram_d]

It's already raining in KL according to a Mercedes AMG F1 fans tweet. Should be an interesting weekend.