[good.car-ma]

Originally Posted by DevilsCry

Wow, heated arguments! Wait a bit guys. Have a look at this link- https://www.facebook.com/note.php?no...63148087073951.

Schumacher was happy with Pirelli tyres during winter testing. He complimented them. So, ...

The exact reason why I said this is more of a venting of frustrations rather than genuine input. If we hear more drivers complaining, or even fans, then its time for action.

Btw, as long as I have been watching F1, preservation of some form has been necessary. Drivers either save fuel or nurse tyres or short-shift to save gearboxes. Anything to gain an advantage. So the concept of "total racing", "real men" etc. is quite non-existent in this context. There is always some compromise.

The question is whether compromise should be forced on the entire grid by a tyre supplier (PuntoMania's point?) and thats why I say lets wait for more opinions.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by asr245

And races in 2000s were not? Except that back then some cars were much faster than others while now (or a few years ago - Abu Dabhi 2010 especially comes to mind) faster cars can't overtake because of "dirty air" which, for me, makes it even boring.

I dont know what you're on about. You were the one that claimed races in the 80s were closer than races in the 2000s, which is completely wrong and exposes the fact that you didnt watch those races at all.

Originally Posted by asr245

Golden era ? I doubt it highly.

I did not claim the 2000s were a golden era. Please show me where I did.

Originally Posted by asr245

He has had tyre trouble before. I remember seeing him nursing his car/tyres to victory before. It seems those skills (maybe reflexes) have left him and that's he's whining. It's not as if he's the only one disadvantaged by that.

It seems you're intentionally being vague here. Nursing tyres after having blasted them through a stint of 10-15 laps is hardly the same thing has having to nurse the tyres through a whole stint, which is what is happening now.

Originally Posted by asr245

Infact the only thing I have read about Pirelli is that drop-off in performance after optimum number of laps is much much more than Bridgestones. Which means penalty of making a mistake is higher. I equate it to having walls in street circuits (like Monaco) as compared to run-off areas in closed circuits. Penalty will be much higher in Monaco. So, don't make that mistake.

You should clearly read a bit more. Everyone on the grid is complaining about not being able to push their cars to the limit because the tyres are limiting them. This is not even close to the analogy of making a mistake. Before slick tyres were banned in 98, drivers had to be careful and avoid locking up their tyres for fear of flatspotting them. However this did not hinder them or their cars from going faster. I dont know why you dont understand this fundamental point in this argument.

Originally Posted by asr245

As a fan you can't see him being criticized or accept that he's overdue on retirement - unless he can prove me wrong i.e. beat Rosberg nice and proper or just beat him. (Although having followed Rosberg since his early days in Williams, I am still to be convinced that he's a world beater)
When he beats him over an entire season, I will change my opinion. I will then make a call to sack Rosberg as I am convinced MS at 43 is not what he was say even in 2006. Even Massa was quite close to MS in the latter half of 2006 (except when it was wet).

You see, when you make sweeping statements like the one above, you clearly distinguish yourself as a basher / hater of a driver.
- You clearly are unaware of the facts of this rivalry and are just going on championship standings
- You are totally oblivious to the fact that Schumacher has had more mechanical failures, more pit stop cock ups and yet finished just a fraction behind his teammate.
- You are also totally oblivious to the fact that Schumacher often has as good if not better race pace than Rosberg and hide behind standings.

The time to eat your words will come pretty soon.

Originally Posted by asr245

When he beats him over an entire season, I will change my opinion. I will then make a call to sack Rosberg

Unfortunately for you not too many people will take you seriously since everyone up and down in the paddock believes that Nico Rosberg is hot property in the driver market. This is why Lewis rates him as being among the top, Gerhard Berger claims he's better than Vettel and Mclaren gave him an offer to join after the departure of Heikki Kovalainen.

Originally Posted by asr245

For me MS, a 7xWDC, not being able to beat his team-mate is struggling. If instead it was Massa or RB, I would have said they are evenly matched. Maybe I have higher expectations from him than you have. Infact, I even read an article which mentioned Ross Brawn having said something to the tune of "MS is not same as he was before - which does not mean he's not fast". Not my words and neither do I have the link to that article - so you can assume I fabricated it.
.
.
Maybe I do. I don't consider him as good as he used to be and hence calling for his retirement.

No one says Schumacher is as fast as before. Which is why his comeback is impressive. At age 43 he is still as quick as the best out there, which means back in the day he would have blitzed the likes of Rosberg in similar equipment. Speaks volumes of his greatness.

Originally Posted by asr245

Funny you mention these races - in both these races there were tyre wear problems for the leader (Alonso in 2005, MS in 2006). Infact, in 2006, MS was "nursing" his tyres and pulled a 1.5sec faster lap once Alonso pitted. It was a Titanic battle literally - high on expectations, low on delivery.

On the same lines, remember Monaco 2011? An epic battle for the lead was brewing when a safety car period followed by a decision to allow tyre change destroyed it. It was a procession there after - not a race.

Now I am starting to wonder if you even know the difference between the Bridgestones and Pirellis. And for you to call Imola 2005 and 2006 a "high on expectations, low on delivery" battle, is just making a mockery of the sport. The quality of motor racing in those two races was amongst the finest you'd ever see. The number of attempts made by Schumacher and Alonso to attack and defend against each other every lap was simply one a naive F1 fan who is just looking for passes all the time, would not appreciate.

And yes, in those days drivers had no option sitting back and use 'push to pass' button to get past. They had to make their passes work. That was real racing.

In any case I see you quoting bits and pieces of others posts and coming up with rhetorical replies. Try to take your level of discussion to a higher level and explain to everyone why you think a tyre that limits everyone's lap times regardless of how good a car is, is real racing. I havent seen you post a single word with regards to this. I have given you comments made by all the top drivers in the sport, by commentators and by former drivers like Brundle (who everyone knows loves a Schumacher bash), and what have you given me ? Nothing but rhetoric.

I rest my case.

Originally Posted by DevilsCry

Wow, heated arguments! Wait a bit guys. Have a look at this link- https://www.facebook.com/note.php?no...63148087073951.

Schumacher was happy with Pirelli tyres during winter testing. He complimented them. So, ...

Yes, that was "winter testing". When drivers were still figuring out the limits of their car with different setups and new parts, under cooler temperatures (which means lower degradation).

Now everyone knows they can push their car more, but cant do it because the pancake Pirellis stop them from doing so and limit everyone's performance to a ceiling. Its turning into a spec series

[vikram_d]

Whoa, guys everybody take a deep breath and relax. Formula 1 stopped being a sport a long time back. It is just entertainment now with all the artificial overtaking, fake tyres, any nice development being banned, frozen engine specifications and the list goes on and on and on. So chill everybody and just entertain yourself.

[good.car-ma]

Originally Posted by vikram_d

Whoa, guys everybody take a deep breath and relax. Formula 1 stopped being a sport a long time back. It is just entertainment now with all the artificial overtaking, fake tyres, any nice development being banned, frozen engine specifications and the list goes on and on and on. So chill everybody and just entertain yourself.

Sports that don't adapt will die out. Like test cricket in relation to T20 (ok ok, there are still fans of the pure form of the gentleman's game but you know what I mean). To keep F1 cost-competitive and popular, all these changes were needed.

Btw, I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Last year's Pirellis had almost the same characteristics and everyone praised them. This year they have just brought the gap in compounds down. Why the big fuss??

[good.car-ma]

At the end of last year we had huge criticism for conservative choices and races were boring. Make your mind up. We are doing what is asked - Paul Hembery via Twitter

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

At the end of last year we had huge criticism for conservative choices and races were boring. Make your mind up. We are doing what is asked - Paul Hembery via Twitter

I think Hembery is taking a really defensive posture on this issue.

-No one asked him to make tyres that will limit all cars to a ceiling of performance / laptimes
-No one asked him to make tyres that will operate in a very narrow window of temperature, which basically makes it a lottery for all teams with regards to set up (No one can setup a car around achieving a particular temperature in their tyres, with huge random variables like air and track temperature and windspeeds to contend with) . Either you get it right or you drop out of contention, which is absurd.

Schumacher was crystal clear in his list of issues with Pirelli. I didnt see any vague statements there.

I think Hembrey knows very well that Pirelli is in a spot of bother with this and this could be a branding disaster for them.

When Michael Schumacher says something about F1, the entire motor racing fraternity sits up and listens, because everyone knows the man knows his stuff. Its definitely already had its impact.

[asr245]

PuntoMania,

I am getting a bit tired of this, so I will write it one last time. I like these tyres because they provide close racing. You have to get the strategy spot on - a lap less or more in these tyres costs a lot more time than it used to. Drivers maybe tip-toeing around (like in a wet race) but I don't care. I care less about on the limit driving as compared to wheel to wheel racing. I like racing MotoGP style - no stops, all the action on the track. I hate overtaking in the pits or on strategy. I don't like the concept of aero grip. Shift focus to mechanical grip. Reduce downforce and increase engine HP (and also noise). Heck, move back to stick shift (or whatever it was called). This is not happening any time soon. So far now, if tyres play a role in making racing exciting, so be it. And same tyres for all hardly makes it a spec series.

As far as MS is concerned, you say he's had bad-luck and bad pits stops et all. This only reminds of Rubens/Fisi making excuses. And he seems to be falling to their levels. Tyres are the same for everyone. What difference does it make if they are driving on the limit or not? If he's not enjoying it, then call it a day. And if a young driver (a so called future WDC) can't beat a 43 year old (who has slowed down), I wouldn't bet on him to become a WDC unless he has a car which is a second faster than everybody else (including this team-mate).

You mention Imola, I am not for overtaking all the time else I would be a DRS fan and I am not. Imola was a non-contest as the racing line is so narrow that you can't get past unless the leading driver makes a mistake. It is very easy to defend there. Alonso and MS, both seasoned pros, knew that and neither of them felt the heat of being harried. IMO, it was a non-contest.

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

I did not claim the 2000s were a golden era. Please show me where I did.

You quoted/read it wrong. The part you quoted was written by you, not me. Here, take a look.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intl-m...ml#post2757227


I am done.

PS: Give the engineers a year with these tyres (maybe less) and they will figure out a way to extract more (more on the limit).

[vikram_d]

This argument if the only reason I always supported multiple tyre manufacturers in F1. Oh I miss the Bridgestone versus Michellin days. I wish they were back.

[polopm]

The fact that some people avoid driving in Q3 to save tyres is simply not acceptable.

Even the cars look ugly. I have seen up-close Lewis' championship winning car and even touched it ! Compared that to the cars now, the recent ones look like the infamous Chennai water lorries - large and bad.

Fair enough :(
Let Bernie bring on the Once-a-race-cut-thru-chicane option as well.
RIP F1. Sorry Schumi. Hang your boots.

[good.car-ma]

Originally Posted by polopm

The fact that some people avoid driving in Q3 to save tyres is simply not acceptable.

This I completely agree with!

Though KR's Q3 miss in Bahrain was more a mistake than a plan, I'm worried that having seen the benefit of new tyres, people will start integrating this in their plans. Sad for F1 if 11th becomes the new pole position

[Hatari]

F1 now is becoming what its fans want it to be... exciting!
While getting rid of Aero excess baggage will always remain a challenge, i'm very happy that tires are the primary reason for giving us close unpredictable results. What makes it fair is that there is only one tire manufacturer, and not two resulting in a difference in performance.

Qualifying is closer than it has ever been in the history of F1.

Rosberg getting his first win was fantastic to watch and great for the sport. The racing so far has more than made up for my disappointment for Ferrari's lack of pace.
Lets not forget that things should settle down a bit once the engineers understand the tires better.

Eagerly awaiting Barcelona..

[polopm]

I think all folks have closed their respective arguments. Case adjourned.

I think it is time for Pavan Kadam to start off with the thread for Barcelona.

El Torro @ Alonso will be waiting.....

[sajands]

Originally Posted by polopm

I think all folks have closed their respective arguments. Case adjourned.

I think it is time for Pavan Kadam to start off with the thread for Barcelona.

El Torro @ Alonso will be waiting.....

Very true, new track new discussion, Will Iceman kimi get the pole and end up 1st, let the discussion/debate begin. Pavan, please start off the new thread.

-Sajan

[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by sajands

Very true, new track new discussion, Will Iceman kimi get the pole and end up 1st, let the discussion/debate begin. Pavan, please start off the new thread.

-Sajan

It's way too early for that. We still have an in-season test being conducted at Mugello to discuss.

[sajands]

Originally Posted by vikram_d

It's way too early for that. We still have an in-season test being conducted at Mugello to discuss.

Oppsss......missed that part, heard that the HRT team is going to miss the test at the mugello track and alonso to head a 3 full day testing for ferrari, hope ferrari get some real working updates.

-Sajan