[PAVAN KADAM]

Originally Posted by drkakkilaya

DONT BLAME PIRELLI , BLAME FIA.
pirelli have the abiltiy to control tyre degradation better than any of the companies present. if FIA asks them they ll do a tyre that can last an entire season ha ha.. they are just doing what fia have asked them to do. If FIA asks them to do a tyre that lasts a stint without degrading they will do it. Blaming pirelli will just give them a wrong publicity which they dont deserve, rather pat them on their back for their ability to do exactly what FIA have asked them of.

Its sad that only one man had guts to openly tell tyres are playing too much of a role.... Michael schumacher.

Since these tyres have come the only overtakings are when the other persons tyres are degrading , or DRS assisted. what show improves by artificiality, drivers need the skill to manage their tyres but not to the extent that u tiptoe across the field .

i rather see 2 or 3 overtakings with flat out racing than 50 odd artificial ones while tiptoing across.

gone are the days of Hungary 98 , france 2004 , indianapolis 2001 , etc etc..

Exactly..

Just look forward to the Qualifying at Monaco, i am telling you guys, we are in for a Fabulous Shoot-out for positions.

Monaco is a kind of track where you need to be in a better position on the grid than save tyres. Tyre degradation is taking out a lot of Fun in F1.

[drkakkilaya]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

If winning at Spa and scoring series of podiums with a dog that Ferrari gave him is not outperforming, then i don't know what is.

Yes an absolute fantastic drive to drive with all 4 wheels off the tarmac and a tremendous job to keep a force india behind. yes that was outperforming. im sure he outperformed massa also in 2008 i guess. sad massa retired from championship in 2009, he was some 20 odd points behind would ve been interesting to see if massa had ended the season. i thought he also had a contract for 2010 i guess ferrari forgot that he was outperforming his car and decided to go for Alonso... were we both watching the same races or were u watching GP2 and confused for F1 ?? i dont kno about u but i was watching F1.

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by drkakkilaya

Yes an absolute fantastic drive to drive with all 4 wheels off the tarmac and a tremendous job to keep a force india behind. yes that was outperforming. im sure he outperformed massa also in 2008 i guess. sad massa retired from championship in 2009, he was some 20 odd points behind would ve been interesting to see if massa had ended the season. i thought he also had a contract for 2010 i guess ferrari forgot that he was outperforming his car and decided to go for Alonso... were we both watching the same races or were u watching GP2 and confused for F1 ?? i dont kno about u but i was watching F1.

Easy there! First of all this is all OT, and i don't know what got you worked up? Is it because Kimi proved all critics wrong and has a better comeback than the old man?
In the 2009 Belgian GP that i watched, Kimi won in an inferior car which was probably 4th best that year if not lower, finishing ahead of Brawn, Redbull and McLaren not just Force India. In the second half of the season, he scored second highest points, next only to Barichello who was driving championship winning Brawn car.
Again, how is this relevant to Pirelli?

If you don't agree with Kimi regarding Pirellis, it's fine but bring some relevant points to discussion, not your Kimi hatred.

[adityasiera]

Heres a overview of what happens at Pirelli prior and post the race. I never knew it just take 2.5 minutes to fit a F1 tyre to the rim.

Formula 1

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by drkakkilaya

Its sad that only one man had guts to openly tell tyres are playing too much of a role.... Michael schumacher.

Since these tyres have come the only overtakings are when the other persons tyres are degrading , or DRS assisted. what show improves by artificiality, drivers need the skill to manage their tyres but not to the extent that u tiptoe across the field .

i rather see 2 or 3 overtakings with flat out racing than 50 odd artificial ones while tiptoing across.

gone are the days of Hungary 98 , france 2004 , indianapolis 2001 , etc etc..

You are forgetting that MS is use to the days when Bridgestone made Ferrari specific tires. Didnt hear to complaining then!

Overtaking : You should understand that the lack of overtaking was resulting in a "snooze fest". (Karun Chandhok's words not mine)
You might be happy to see 2 or 3 passes, but the remaining few million fans were not and switching off the races as a result and teams were quitting F1.

DRS mind you is not artificial, it does not enable an HRT to overtake a Caterham, am not even considering the top teams. It merely makes up for the loss in grip that cars face in the preceding corner while following cars closely.

Also, pl explain how tires are artificial and tiptoeing.
You make it Maldonado's brilliant race, keeping Alonso behind him, while managing his tires/pace to be a walk in the park!

[anachronix]

^^ Thats the problem with the fans of the new age that Bernie wants. A recent poll conducted by Pirelli for the best F1 circuit had fans voting in almost equal numbers for Spa & the awful Marina Bay. That says a lot, isnt it!?

[Hatari]

^^ Not wants.. but needs! F1 needs to be sheltered from the ongoing cloud of recession. Thats the reason Bernie went scouting outside Europe in the first place.

Here's Lewis Hamilton on ESPN F1, thumbs up for Pirelli :

"I really enjoy the racing that we have now, as I've enjoyed it every year, and every year is a new challenge. I think that's what the rules are there to give us; challenges. It is a little bit different where we're not pushing 100% in the race - there's some points in the race where you can really push but not for very long - and it is perhaps more about endurance, it's about making these tyres last. But it is still a challenge to extract the most out of the tyres for a race and a longer period. It still requires skill and technique and finesse to do that stuff and I'm still trying to get that fine touch sorted. But nonetheless it's still Formula One, it's still fun and there's more overtaking which is what people like to see."

[anachronix]

That is one reason I mentioned the equal number of fans loving the Singapore track, there is huge number of new fans following that love the Glitz and Glamour of the F1 having no clue about its pedigree.

The shame begins when a driver of Hamilton's quality says the tires dont allow him to push 100%. Like Hamilton says, its like an endurance challenge and I hope his PR allowed him to speak much more about the Pirellis!

[asr245]

F1's pedigree was never based just on strategies either. It was overtaking on the track. Strategies gained importance when overtaking on track became harder and harder (more aero grip than mechanical) and all you saw was cars going very fast around the circuit in a queue. It was like watching a 100m sprint but all runners starting from different positions on the track.

Shame began years ago when overtaking became virtually nil and the only action in most races was around pitstops. Vettel was quoted in an article (I can't find it) where he says he spent 60 of the 66 laps chasing Massa at 2009 Spanish GP. And you can find several such quotes by drivers about how difficult overtaking was.

[drkakkilaya]

Originally Posted by Hatari

You are forgetting that MS is use to the days when Bridgestone made Ferrari specific tires. Didnt hear to complaining then!

Overtaking : You should understand that the lack of overtaking was resulting in a "snooze fest". (Karun Chandhok's words not mine)
You might be happy to see 2 or 3 passes, but the remaining few million fans were not and switching off the races as a result and teams were quitting F1.

DRS mind you is not artificial, it does not enable an HRT to overtake a Caterham, am not even considering the top teams. It merely makes up for the loss in grip that cars face in the preceding corner while following cars closely.

Also, pl explain how tires are artificial and tiptoeing.
You make it Maldonado's brilliant race, keeping Alonso behind him, while managing his tires/pace to be a walk in the park!

Didnt hear complaining then ??? sure u are right...

when championship went down to wire in 2003 where bridgestone almost lost due to michelin having a wider profile than specified ??? sure dint complain then...

2005 when bridgestone couldn make a tyre that lasted a race ?? sure u didnt hear complain then..

2006 i guess that was also ferrari specific tyres and still ferrari lost ??? sure u didn hear complaint then

2007 when bridgestone made completely independent compound to any previously compound known to ferrari ?? didnt hear complaint then ???

2001 2002 and 2004 ferrari had a exceptionally good chassis which made the best use of the tyres.....

Please this is not about MS , MS was mentioned because he s the only one who has openly spoke about it..
alonso ,webber , vettle , rosberg, hamilton ,button everyone have told that they are not racing at their limits but doing it coz fans are liking the overtakings..so does that mean that u now go saying alonso...din hear it then., button ..didnt hear it then... rosberg.. didnt hear it then etc etc..

what im trying t tell here is, give tyres when everyone can race and not float around and not saying give only MS a racing tyre and keep rest on the same.


Did u really enjoy some 10 people overtaking kimi when his tyres fell of the cliff, so do you look at it as kimi lost 10 places or it was 10 amazing overtakings... theres a difference.

If DRS is merely making up for the loss of downforce then ...
and why DRS can be deployed even after passing the car in the middle of the straight and continue to use it till the zone ends, they can turn it off once passed..

Dude did u even watch the race.???
the first thing williams and ferrari told maldonado and alonso as soon as the came out of their final pits was " conserve tyres conserve tyres, conserve tyres " is all we heard... if they were so much flat out racing according to you , then why did alonso back out after charging for 3 laps ????? why did williams tell maldonado look after tyres it ll be helpful as the race ends ???
why not have both on durable rubber and watch them push each other to limits.????
Im surprises when the topic of this discussion itself is "How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical? " says it all...

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by asr245

F1's pedigree was never based just on strategies either. It was overtaking on the track. Strategies gained importance when overtaking on track became harder and harder (more aero grip than mechanical) and all you saw was cars going very fast around the circuit in a queue. It was like watching a 100m sprint but all runners starting from different positions on the track.

Australian Autosport Community • View topic - F1 Overtaking Statistics & Analysis

This should enlighten a bit! Thats the overtaking statistics right from 1983. Look at the average overtakes in a race from 1983 - 2009!

Shame began years ago when overtaking became virtually nil and the only action in most races was around pitstops. Vettel was quoted in an article (I can't find it) where he says he spent 60 of the 66 laps chasing Massa at 2009 Spanish GP. And you can find several such quotes by drivers about how difficult overtaking was.

SpanishGP, where even DRS failed miserably this year! Its probably next to Monaco when its comes to overtaking and why would you quote that for an example

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by drkakkilaya

Im surprises when the topic of this discussion itself is "How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical? " says it all...

Lets not get so emotional. Think logically on the popularity of the sport we love.
And I mean from the point of view of a motorsport enthusiast rather than people like us who have live timing as well as the TV screens on for every race.

Here's the Monaco preview, Pirelli section for you from ESPN F1:

Pirelli
There's just no pleasing some people. Having sat through years of tedious races which were only decided in the pit lane, Formula One was crying out for someone to give the sport a shot in the arm. Pirelli did just that last year, but even then the teams started to get on top of the tyres and races such as the Indian Grand Prix were slightly processional. Having challenged the teams yet again and delivered the most unpredictable and open season arguably in Formula One history, the teams are starting to complain that the tyres have too much of an impact. Even Martin Whitmarsh - previously a staunch supporter of Pirelli's approach - admitted on Wednesday that the races were affected by tyres "a little bit" too much.

There's no point going on arguing over specific cases when the logic behind it is not understood.
If you actually have faith and know F1 and its technical brilliance, you would realise engineers will get a handle on the tires. ( Sooner than I would want them for sure)

[asr245]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Australian Autosport Community • View topic - F1 Overtaking Statistics & Analysis

This should enlighten a bit! Thats the overtaking statistics right from 1983. Look at the average overtakes in a race from 1983 - 2009!

I don't know what you were trying to prove but that just shows how overtaking reduced from 40s/race to around 12-16/race, a part of which can be attributed to the fact that cars are probably a 1000 times more reliable today than they were back then. Other part of it is aero.

Originally Posted by anachronix

SpanishGP, where even DRS failed miserably this year! Its probably next to Monaco when its comes to overtaking and why would you quote that for an example

Laugh all you want but this track is a perfect example how much aero influences overtaking! Vettel couldn't overtake Massa for 60 laps (they had similar strategies) but Webber who was seconds behind caught up and, thanks to a different strategy, overtook both.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by asr245

I don't know what you were trying to prove but that just shows how overtaking reduced from 40s/race to around 12-16/race, a part of which can be attributed to the fact that cars are probably a 1000 times more reliable today than they were back then. Other part of it is aero.

The overtaking trend from 1994 has been close until 2009 where it drops low to 12 whereas it was at 16 in 1994. (even in the so called master overtaker Senna's era)

Laugh all you want but this track is a perfect example how much aero influences overtaking! Vettel couldn't overtake Massa for 60 laps (they had similar strategies) but Webber who was seconds behind caught up and, thanks to a different strategy, overtook both.

Thats how the track is and most fans hate Montmelo track for the same reason. If Webber overtook them both by strategy he was not sitting in front of his PC worked out a strategy to pass the drivers. He must be pushing really hard on track for delta times to get him ahead of other drivers. Thats the nature of the Spanish circuit.

And how many overtakes are you expecting at Monaco!?

[asr245]

I will put aside the rest of the discussion.

Originally Posted by anachronix

He must be pushing really hard on track for delta times to get him ahead of other drivers. Thats the nature of the Spanish circuit.

Actually it wasn't anything spectacular like the one we saw from him in Hungary 2010 (I think). It was just that Massa was slower. RBR was faster than Ferrari even in 2009.

Originally Posted by anachronix

And how many overtakes are you expecting at Monaco!?

Few - even with these tires. The only reason Monaco is worth watching is because of the close walls which drivers almost "kiss" every single lap and, of course, the view from cockpit camera (the few times it's shown). Just love that.