[asr245]

I actually quite like the idea of a Pirelli exit. Just wondering what the options would be if no tire manufacturer is interested in supplying tires.

BTW, am I right in assuming that Pirelli is not paid to be a supplier but probably is the other way around? i.e. Pirelli pays to Bernie/FIA?

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by Hatari

"Mediocre"?? The tires they have produced are a far greater challenge to make than durable tires. This is a fact.
How can you not understand that!?

Pirelli were told to produce a specific type of tire by the FIA. They followed the brief given to them to the core.
Blame the FIA, not Pirelli.

I have understood where you are coming from on performance/drivers/teams etc and even agree with you.
But you have been missing the bigger picture which justifies it all.

1. Nobody asked Pirelli to create tyres that will inhibit the racing driver from pushing his car.
2. Nobody asked Pirelli to create tyres that will perform differently at different temperatures, making F1 races a lottery.

Originally Posted by Hatari

Drivers and teams will always criticize what they do not understand and cannot master. Nothing new.
You will find Alonso being very careful about what he says. He remember's spending all those agonizing laps stuck behind Petrov watching Championship hopes disappear before his very eyes and nothing that he could do about it in a faster car

Wrong again.

Some of Fernando Alonso's comments with regards to the tyre situation :

2nd February 2011 : "The tyres degrade quite a lot, especially the rears, and the lap times are not consistent"

pitpass - Problems for Pirelli?

1st March 2011 : "There will be three or four (pit stops per race) and that's not good for the big teams," Alonso added.

"It mixes the situation, just as in football if there was a penalty each half hour, Barcelona and Real Madrid would not be happy. If it's better for anybody, it's the small teams," he said.

F1 : Fernando Alonso - Pirelli tyre switch not good for big Formula 1 teams

14th March 2011 : "With Pirelli, we can't brake hard enough .. and the traction has deteriorated," the Ferrari driver told the Spanish daily El Pais.

"Previously when I reached the end of the straight I braked as hard as I could. If I do that now, they (the tyres) block, especially the back ones,"

Alonso unhappy with Pirelli tyres - Business LIVE


31st May 2012 : "On the other hand we can lose credibility. We cannot lose that the best teams, the best drivers, the best strategies win the races, because at the moment from the outside it seems that in every race anyone can win.

"It doesn't matter the talent, it doesn't matter the team, the performance -- it's like a lottery. What you achieve in Formula One is not by chance. We need to make clear that if you win a race, it's because you did something better. And I don't think at the moment that this is clear for everybody."


Alonso: F1 runs risk of losing credibility - CNN.com




Happy ?

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

1. Nobody asked Pirelli to create tyres that will inhibit the racing driver from pushing his car.
2. Nobody asked Pirelli to create tyres that will perform differently at different temperatures, making F1 races a lottery.

1. What were Hamilton, Perez and Grosjean doing in the last 15 laps of the Canadian GP?
2. Bridgestone/Michelins have always had varying performance in different temperatures.

Lottery? Really?
The 3 most highly rated drivers are leading the championship.
The 3 slowest teams have not won a race or finished on the podium and are at the bottom of the Constructors.
Sauber has produced the best car in their history of F1 - Their words not mine.
Williams and Lotus have produced genuinely quick cars.

This is the closest that all teams have been in terms of pace for a long time.(Look at Quali. Durability plays no role here)

Therefore if teams get setup slightly wrong they lose more places than they would have in earlier seasons.

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Wrong again.

Some of Fernando Alonso's comments with regards to the tyre situation :

2nd February 2011 : "The tyres degrade quite a lot, especially the rears, and the lap times are not consistent"

pitpass - Problems for Pirelli?

1st March 2011 : "There will be three or four (pit stops per race) and that's not good for the big teams," Alonso added.

"It mixes the situation, just as in football if there was a penalty each half hour, Barcelona and Real Madrid would not be happy. If it's better for anybody, it's the small teams," he said.

F1 : Fernando Alonso - Pirelli tyre switch not good for big Formula 1 teams

14th March 2011 : "With Pirelli, we can't brake hard enough .. and the traction has deteriorated," the Ferrari driver told the Spanish daily El Pais.

"Previously when I reached the end of the straight I braked as hard as I could. If I do that now, they (the tyres) block, especially the back ones,"

Alonso unhappy with Pirelli tyres - Business LIVE


31st May 2012 : "On the other hand we can lose credibility. We cannot lose that the best teams, the best drivers, the best strategies win the races, because at the moment from the outside it seems that in every race anyone can win.

"It doesn't matter the talent, it doesn't matter the team, the performance -- it's like a lottery. What you achieve in Formula One is not by chance. We need to make clear that if you win a race, it's because you did something better. And I don't think at the moment that this is clear for everybody."


Alonso: F1 runs risk of losing credibility - CNN.com




Happy ?

Am not debating on HALF of what he has said as you are pointing out, especially when he has also said the following in the CNN article.

"It's a fantastic season, it's so unpredictable. I think people stand in front of the TV, with some surprises every race. It's good for the audience, it's good for the sport to bring attention to the races," said the Spaniard

And yes, VERY HAPPY THIS YEAR!

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Hatari

"Mediocre"?? The tires they have produced are a far greater challenge to make than durable tires. This is a fact.
How can you not understand that!?

Pirelli were told to produce a specific type of tire by the FIA. They followed the brief given to them to the core.
Blame the FIA, not Pirelli.

I have understood where you are coming from on performance/drivers/teams etc and even agree with you.
But you have been missing the bigger picture which justifies it all.



This is EXACTLY what Windsor is saying and very obvious.



Drivers and teams will always criticize what they do not understand and cannot master. Nothing new.
You will find Alonso being very careful about what he says. He remember's spending all those agonizing laps stuck behind Petrov watching Championship hopes disappear before his very eyes and nothing that he could do about it in a faster car

^^ So Peter Windsor opens the pandora's box again for us!

Apart from proper racing, what bigger picture are you talking about mate!? Entertainment in F1!? Then you are watching the wrong sport

If Alonso was stuck behind Petrov for all those laps in Abu Dhabi is a problem, its because of the stupid design of the track and superb top speed of the the R30. Even with DRS there were hardly any overtaking last year in Abu Dhabi and the track officials have already promised to work on making some changes to that stupid circuit. I am sure its not going to be much different this year. If you think it was the Bridgestone tires, I am sorry again but you are wrong!

[PuntoMania]

Another post with no proof and no research done before posting. This is getting tiring now.

Originally Posted by Hatari

1. What were Hamilton, Perez and Grosjean doing in the last 15 laps of the Canadian GP?
2. Bridgestone/Michelins have always had varying performance in different temperatures.

Hatari,
This debate would be far more interesting if you actually take the time to find out what the drivers themselves feel rather than putting your own assumptions into it.

Lewis Hamilton after the Canada GP :
"LH: When I crossed the line. Of course when I saw them, and I saw that I was catching them and there was a possibility, and I knew how many laps that I would have to get past so I was not desperate to get past them in a real rush. I had a lot left in me, in the tyres so I was generally driving a little bit off the pace. There was no need to push because the guys had fallen behind and when I heard that these guys were catching a little bit, I knew that I had plenty in me if I needed to match the same times, and there were only a couple of laps left, but perhaps if circumstances were different and they were much quicker, then we would have had even more of a race."

Let me translate for you : Hamilton was not pushing, by his own admission.

Originally Posted by Hatari

Lottery? Really?
The 3 most highly rated drivers are leading the championship.
The 3 slowest teams have not won a race or finished on the podium and are at the bottom of the Constructors.
Sauber has produced the best car in their history of F1 - Their words not mine.
Williams and Lotus have produced genuinely quick cars.

The results are not the end all of this discussion as you're trying to oversimplify it into. Just because Red Bull & Mclaren are getting decent results does not mean that the grid is based solely on merit this season

Read this, more damning proof of what the teams think of the tyres :

Dietrich Mateschitz, owner of Red Bull racing :

F1 is more exciting and more unpredictable than ever before," he told Autosport. "Obviously, caused by the rule changes before the season, the top teams moved closer together. I always had confidence in the potential of our RB8 and I still have, no doubt.

"But everyone has to learn F1 again. It has become a kind of lottery to find out the window in which a tyre works.
"And I do not believe this just happens on purpose to create more overtaking and tension in the races. I suppose no-one really understands these tyres."

Mateschitz weighs in on tyre debate | Planet F1 | Formula One News


Vijay Mallya, Force India : "I believe this unpredictability has crept in largely because of the tyres and it's making for some entertaining races. That's why we're working especially hard to understand the tyres better to make sure we get the best out of them," he is quoted as saying by Autosport.

"If we can find the sweet spot I hope we can enjoy our own special results in the races to come."

Mallya: Our time will come | Planet F1 | Formula One | News, Standings, Results, Features, Video


And the most damning link of them all,
Pirelli to test new hard compound tyre in practice at the British Grand Prix - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

Originally Posted by Autosport

F1 teams are in agreement this year that getting the tyres in to the right operational window is a key element to performance, because cars are now so similar in terms of their speed.


However, many teams have struggled to unlock the secrets of Pirelli's 2012 rubber - especially when it comes to extracting pace from it in both low fuel conditions for qualifying and then for the race.


To help that situation Pirelli is looking at a new hard compound that will have a wider operational range – and should therefore be a help to teams who are struggling to get into the right temperature window.

Which is the biggest admission of guilt in itself. Pirelli themselves are now bringing a new compound which is not temperature sensitive (aka a lottery) and will work optimally across a wide range of temperature. I dont think any more proof is needed that the Pirelli approach to racing is a failed experiment and a bad one at that.

Originally Posted by Hatari

Am not debating on HALF of what he has said as you are pointing out, especially when he has also said the following in the CNN article.



And yes, VERY HAPPY THIS YEAR!

Nice try at diverting from the topic, again. Werent you the one that said Alonso was 'very careful' about his comments about Pirelli ? He was among the first drivers to criticize the tyres last year and it continues today. Its another wrong assumption from you my friend. All the top drivers in the sport have, at different times, said that the tyres are not allowing them to push hard, not promoting meritorious competition, and introducing a huge element of luck into the sport. Yet you choose to remain completely blinded by the "show" this is giving you. I'll leave it at that.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

^^ So Peter Windsor opens the pandora's box again for us!

Apart from proper racing, what bigger picture are you talking about mate!? Entertainment in F1!? Then you are watching the wrong sport

If Alonso was stuck behind Petrov for all those laps in Abu Dhabi is a problem, its because of the stupid design of the track and superb top speed of the the R30. Even with DRS there were hardly any overtaking last year in Abu Dhabi and the track officials have already promised to work on making some changes to that stupid circuit. I am sure its not going to be much different this year. If you think it was the Bridgestone tires, I am sorry again but you are wrong!

The bigger picture is WHY the FIA felt we needed Pirelli to make the tires they have. WHY KERS/DRS etc. Think about that.
I dont need the entertainment. But you refuse to acknowledge the other millions of people who do.

Petrov was only 3 kmph faster than Alonso in the speed trap! Bridgestones didnt need to be handled to well, they hardly degraded. Opportunity lost to test out another skill set that Alonso is a master at. So they did play a huge role.

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Another post with no proof and no research done before posting. This is getting tiring now.

Chief, your research has been ignoring half of what someone has said and focusing on 1 part only!

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Hatari,
This debate would be far more interesting if you actually take the time to find out what the drivers themselves feel rather than putting your own assumptions into it.

Hamilton was flat out after his 2nd stop till he overtook FA & Seb, which is what I was trying to convey.
Since you havent found a quote on Grosjean & Perez, i take it you agree

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Which is the biggest admission of guilt in itself. Pirelli themselves are now bringing a new compound which is not temperature sensitive (aka a lottery) and will work optimally across a wide range of temperature. I dont think any more proof is needed that the Pirelli approach to racing is a failed experiment and a bad one at that.

The FIA are extremely happy with them for the tires they have produced. This is due to constant badgering by the public at large and poor press!

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Nice try at diverting from the topic, again. Werent you the one that said Alonso was 'very careful' about his comments about Pirelli ? He was among the first drivers to criticize the tyres last year and it continues today. Its another wrong assumption from you my friend. All the top drivers in the sport have, at different times, said that the tyres are not allowing them to push hard, not promoting meritorious competition, and introducing a huge element of luck into the sport. Yet you choose to remain completely blinded by the "show" this is giving you. I'll leave it at that.

By careful i mean outlining the positives of the tyres as well.

I dont believe there is a reason to carry on complaining about the tires and panicking.
The bottom 5 teams arent winning the lottery are they?

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Hatari

The bigger picture is WHY the FIA felt we needed Pirelli to make the tires they have. WHY KERS/DRS etc. Think about that.
I dont need the entertainment. But you refuse to acknowledge the other millions of people who do.

You need to get some understanding on where the problem is with Pirellis. I am ok with tire wear, if a SS tire can last only 10 laps let it last only 10 laps. What I dont want is degradation, push the SS tire for 2 laps and its gone to the pits for the next 10 laps its supposed to stay is what is happening with the Pirelli. That is one reason, the drivers are coasting these tires and not racing or driving the cars at their full potential. That is what I dont want. The Idea to bring Pirelli is good, but they have sucked at putting the idea to life!

I dont care if the millions like it or not, but I hate it when a F1 car goes in endurance mode!

Petrov was only 3 kmph faster than Alonso in the speed trap! Bridgestones didnt need to be handled to well, they hardly degraded. Opportunity lost to test out another skill set that Alonso is a master at. So they did play a huge role.

Look at sector times please! 3KMPH difference is still a lot in F1. Merc with the DDRS could gain only about 5KMPH over the conventional setup.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

You need to get some understanding on where the problem is with Pirellis. I am ok with tire wear, if a SS tire can last only 10 laps let it last only 10 laps. What I dont want is degradation, push the SS tire for 2 laps and its gone to the pits for the next 10 laps its supposed to stay is what is happening with the Pirelli. That is one reason, the drivers are coasting these tires and not racing or driving the cars at their full potential. That is what I dont want. The Idea to bring Pirelli is good, but they have sucked at putting the idea to life!

I dont care if the millions like it or not, but I hate it when a F1 car goes in endurance mode!

Tyre life is never clear cut. Why do you think teams have always done only 1 hot lap for qualiying? They wear out and start slipping around! This has always been the case in F1. The fact that they are carrying a whole race load of fuel doesnt help, which was not the case in earlier years.

But i agree that management of tire wear is more crucial than it has ever been.

Look at sector times please! 3KMPH difference is still a lot in F1. Merc with the DDRS could gain only about 5KMPH over the conventional setup.

DRS/sector time??
Now your changing what you said about "superb top speed of the the R30"

[Sn1p3r]

^ clear case of agreeing to disagree.

I hope you wish to reach a conclusion.

I interpret that it's entertainment and need for money that changed the race into circus. You can't tag it as it always has been as it was never like this.

I hope Pirelli doesn't bow to Governments to build tyres that reach only legal limit and if pressed further explode. That will be funny though.

:P

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Tyre life is never clear cut. Why do you think teams have always done only 1 hot lap for qualiying? They wear out and start slipping around! This has always been the case in F1. The fact that they are carrying a whole race load of fuel doesnt help, which was not the case in earlier years.

No, it was not always the case! When did you see all the cars sitting inside the garage during the BS/Michelin era!?

But i agree that management of tire wear is more crucial than it has ever been.

Oh, thanks! Speed trap is only indicative

DRS/sector time??
Now your changing what you said about "superb top speed of the the R30"

Dude, never heard of sector times!? Where was DRS in 2010!?

Formula 1

You can read here about sector in F1!

Look at the red marking here highlighting sector2 in Abu Dhabi!

Formula 1

Sector 2 in Abu Dhabi is the high speed section and the R30 was consistently faster than the F10 all through the race. Even around the speed traps the R30 was much faster than the Ferrari. I dont understand why you are after the tires!

I hope you watched the race and spend a little more time understanding the sport!

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Tyre life is never clear cut. Why do you think teams have always done only 1 hot lap for qualiying? They wear out and start slipping around! This has always been the case in F1. The fact that they are carrying a whole race load of fuel doesnt help, which was not the case in earlier years.

Qualifying is done on low fuel these days.

Also, refuelling was banned in 2010, when Bridgestone was present in the sport. I didnt see Bridgestones falling off a cliff or preventing drivers from pushing hard.


Also, the reason Alonso was not able to overtake the Renault at Abu Dhabi 2010 is not the Bridgestone tyres. It was caused by the peculiar nature of the track, and the tremendous amount of turbulent air that was created by the diffusers which came about in 2009 with Brawn GP's DDD.

Please dont blame all the world's problems on Bridgestone.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

No, it was not always the case! When did you see all the cars sitting inside the garage during the BS/Michelin era!?

They have always done 1 hot lap, unless there were warm up issues.
What does cars siiting in garages have to do with it?

How can you even say if a SS if supposed to last 10 laps it should!?
Do you think they come with a little guarantee slip or expiry duration printed on?

Seems to me you are the one who needs a far better understanding of the sport.

Originally Posted by anachronix

Oh, thanks! Speed trap is only indicative



Dude, never heard of sector times!? Where was DRS in 2010!?

Formula 1

You can read here about sector in F1!

Look at the red marking here highlighting sector2 in Abu Dhabi!

Formula 1

Sector 2 in Abu Dhabi is the high speed section and the R30 was consistently faster than the F10 all through the race. Even around the speed traps the R30 was much faster than the Ferrari. I dont understand why you are after the tires!

I hope you watched the race and spend a little more time understanding the sport!

ALonso was about 2 tenths faster in qualifying in Sector 2.
What are you trying to get at? 3 km/hr is not much faster. Vettel was 7km/hr slower than Petrov and 10 km/hr slower than the fastest car.

What is that then?

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Qualifying is done on low fuel these days.

Also, refuelling was banned in 2010, when Bridgestone was present in the sport. I didnt see Bridgestones falling off a cliff or preventing drivers from pushing hard.


Also, the reason Alonso was not able to overtake the Renault at Abu Dhabi 2010 is not the Bridgestone tyres. It was caused by the peculiar nature of the track, and the tremendous amount of turbulent air that was created by the diffusers which came about in 2009 with Brawn GP's DDD.

Please dont blame all the world's problems on Bridgestone.

Full race load during the RACE. The bridgestone/michelin's used to blister/start graining when pushed too hard.
A tyre will have to be more carefully handled when the tanks are full like it is since 2010. Earlier the 1st stint/2nd stint could be the fastest for a driver, but now the last stint is always fastest due to lower fuel levels. I am saying Bridgestones were a factor, not the sole reason.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Hatari

They have always done 1 hot lap, unless there were warm up issues.
What does cars siiting in garages have to do with it?

That says a lot about how much you love the sport! Thanks for all the conversation, let me save some time!

ALonso was about 2 tenths faster in qualifying in Sector 2.
What are you trying to get at? 3 km/hr is not much faster. Vettel was 7km/hr slower than Petrov and 10 km/hr slower than the fastest car.
What is that then?

Again, look at the sector times! The RB was never faster on a straight line!

I have no clue what you are trying to say.
Seems to me you are the one who needs a better understanding of the sport.

Thanks!

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

That says a lot about how much you love the sport! Thanks for all the conversation, let me save some time!

Think you are taking too much for granted and assuming no one else knows anything about F1.
I cant keep stating what is obvious.

One hot lap before the tires lose grip, making them change tires and try another fresh/scrubbed in set of course. Each SET OF TIRES lasts for only ONE HOT LAP. To make a set of SS last 10 laps, it depends how you drive them!

[Sn1p3r]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Think you are taking too much for granted and assuming no one else knows anything about F1.
I cant keep stating what is obvious.

One hot lap before the tires lose grip, making them change tires and try another fresh/scrubbed in set of course. Each SET OF TIRES lasts for only ONE HOT LAP. To make a set of SS last 10 laps, it depends how you drive them!

Dear, it is a conservation strategy from manufacturer. It's not just one lap that the drivers go for. It's what they can afford with the tyres. The main aim currently is to save them for raceday. That's what we all are lamenting about.

The load of fuel for qualifying Q3 is for fastest lap but it isn't same as raceday dynamic for same setup next day for actual race. Teams have suffered. Ask Jenson, he is the most tyre conservation capable driver yet he is down on points.

No one here is questioning your knowledge, just that we look at things differently. Every year things change for past 20 years I have seen the race but this year is a bit off for GP expecting viewer.