[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Coming to the Hamilton. Did you see how he let Grosjean past towards the first half of the race at the same corner, exactly the same point?

On Pastor, it reminds me of the time Vettel in a Toro Rosso smashed into Webber ruining his race many years ago. And now he's not only blowing Mark away but he's also double world champion!

Rookies will make mistakes and learn from them hopefully

I think Maldonado is a good driver, but is still inconsistent : Some weekends he is very good, while others he is decidedly average.

He looks much stronger because his teammate is a very average F1 driver who did not deserve his seat in F1 and is there only due to the Senna name. Last year Maldonado was often outpaced by a very old and well past it Barrichello, which leaves some question marks over him. However, the peculiar nature of the regulations in the past few years (no testing, difficult to master tyres, and ever changing regulations) mean that its difficult to judge Maldonado by simply comparing him with Barrichello.

I think we should wait till the end of the season to proclaim him as the next big thing. I think he has some competition from the likes of Di Resta, Hulkenberg and Perez, all of whom are very good as well IMO.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

I think Maldonado is a good driver, but is still inconsistent : Some weekends he is very good, while others he is decidedly average.

He looks much stronger because his teammate is a very average F1 driver who did not deserve his seat in F1 and is there only due to the Senna name. Last year Maldonado was often outpaced by a very old and well past it Barrichello, which leaves some question marks over him. However, the peculiar nature of the regulations in the past few years (no testing, difficult to master tyres, and ever changing regulations) mean that its difficult to judge Maldonado by simply comparing him with Barrichello.

I think we should wait till the end of the season to proclaim him as the next big thing. I think he has some competition from the likes of Di Resta, Hulkenberg and Perez, all of whom are very good as well IMO.

Consistency comes with experience.
2011 was a good season for him alongside the most experienced driver in the sport, when people were writing him off as 'just another pay driver'.

Not putting him the top league yet but he has impressed me more than say KK, SP, SG, Hulk, DiResta in terms of race craft.

[akshay380]

If only the Mad-Donado learns to respect other drivers and also put forward a less crash-repair bill for this employers.

See the progress since GP2 race.

Grosjean x Maldonado Hockenheim - YouTube

[polopm]

Folks here is the summary since the last set of posts

1. Paul Di Resta and Anothony Hamilton Split !
Di Resta and manager Hamilton split*

2. Schumi's contract will have to be decided in the next 6 weeks. This will be a big event and can trigger a flurry of activity .

3. Sutil seems to be making some noises ,lest people ignore him totally.

4. Heiki K says he deserves a chance in the bigger teams, Even Martin Brundle is endorsing him.

and not on f1 - Mark Webber shoots for Playboy

[J.B]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

He looks much stronger because his teammate is a very average F1 driver who did not deserve his seat in F1 and is there only due to the Senna name.

Hi PuntoMania,

With all due respect, just wanted to know if your above statement on Bruno is based on facts? If yes, please provide the source. Though I agree he has not performed up to the hype surrounding his last name, I don't think anyone can find a seat in F1 without talent. Also, a team like Williams (which is famous for showing no mercy to its drivers, and cares only about victory (ask Damon Hill and Alain Prost) ) is highly unlikely to give someone a drive just because of the Senna name.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by J.B

Hi PuntoMania,

With all due respect, just wanted to know if your above statement on Bruno is based on facts? If yes, please provide the source. Though I agree he has not performed up to the hype surrounding his last name, I don't think anyone can find a seat in F1 without talent. Also, a team like Williams (which is famous for showing no mercy to its drivers, and cares only about victory (ask Damon Hill and Alain Prost) ) is highly unlikely to give someone a drive just because of the Senna name.

I hope you guys dont mind me answering this post

If Rubens brought in more sponsorship than Bruno did, we wont be even talking about this topic. The glory days of Williams hiring a driver on merits is gone. Sadly, a team with great history is now struggling financially and pay drivers are the way to go for them! Its not the Senna name, but the money that Bruno brought to the team which got him the drive for this year.

He is no more a rookie in F1, the Williams is a very strong midfield car this year and Bruno has been consistently underperforming!

[J.B]

Originally Posted by anachronix

I hope you guys dont mind me answering this post

If Rubens brought in more sponsorship than Bruno did, we wont be even talking about this topic. The glory days of Williams hiring a driver on merits is gone. Sadly, a team with great history is now struggling financially and pay drivers are the way to go for them! Its not the Senna name, but the money that Bruno brought to the team which got him the drive for this year.

He is no more a rookie in F1, the Williams is a very strong midfield car this year and Bruno has been consistently underperforming!

Hi Anachronix,

Sorry for being inquisitive, but I would really love to know where you get your facts from. I did a little research and could not find any article that describes about the money Bruno brought in. It is often discussed about how Pastor got his seat because of his money. But, I don't think teams have gone to such a state where they will give a drive to anyone with money. Infact, one has to have a proven record in the first place before he gets backing from sponsors.

Bruno seems to have a fairly decent record in GP2, has won Monaco and Silverstone, and while we can comment on his poor performance in F1, it would be unfair to him and the sport to say he is there only because of his name or money.

And regarding Williams, in one of the team principals press conferences (I think during the Spanish GP), there was a question about the new v6 engines and Monisha expressed her concern on the operational costs due to new engines, while Frank was like, "We would buy the best engines that are available and if we don't have the money, we would somehow raise it". So I highly doubt a man of such passion would give a drive to someone just for the money. Also, I don't think we have too many names to point to who deserve a seat better than say Bruno or Pastor.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by J.B

Hi Anachronix,

Sorry for being inquisitive, but I would really love to know where you get your facts from. I did a little research and could not find any article that describes about the money Bruno brought in. It is often discussed about how Pastor got his seat because of his money. But, I don't think teams have gone to such a state where they will give a drive to anyone with money. Infact, one has to have a proven record in the first place before he gets backing from sponsors.

Bruno Senna to race for Williams RenaultJames Allen on F1

His sponsor tweeted about Bruno's return before Sir Frank came public about his driver lineup!

Bruno seems to have a fairly decent record in GP2, has won Monaco and Silverstone, and while we can comment on his poor performance in F1, it would be unfair to him and the sport to say he is there only because of his name or money.

Fairly decent in GP2, yes! Hulk has a better record than Bruno, but he was sitting in the pitwall for the whole of 2011!

And regarding Williams, in one of the team principals press conferences (I think during the Spanish GP), there was a question about the new v6 engines and Monisha expressed her concern on the operational costs due to new engines, while Frank was like, "We would buy the best engines that are available and if we don't have the money, we would somehow raise it". So I highly doubt a man of such passion would give a drive to someone just for the money. Also, I don't think we have too many names to point to who deserve a seat better than say Bruno or Pastor.

Then what is Maldo doing in the Williams!?

[J.B]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Bruno Senna to race for Williams RenaultJames Allen on F1

His sponsor tweeted about Bruno's return before Sir Frank came public about his driver lineup!

Well, thanks for the link.

Originally Posted by anachronix

Fairly decent in GP2, yes! Hulk has a better record than Bruno, but he was sitting in the pitwall for the whole of 2011!

I agree, But it has always been like that. Talent + money is what you need for any form of racing. Eventually, the talented would shine.

Originally Posted by anachronix

Then what is Maldo doing in the Williams!?

Maldo not only brought the money, he brought the much needed WIN. Point is, without talent, they are unlikely to fetch money.

[PuntoMania]

- Bruno Senna was second in the 2008 GP2 champion to Georgio Pantano, an F1 reject who was driving an inferior car to Senna (who was with iSport, the defending champions). Whats more, he barely finished 2nd by just one point to Lucas Di Grassi who joined the GP2 season about 5 races after it started.

- Senna, in 2009 was in direct contention for a seat at the Brawn GP car, along with Di Grassi and Barrichello. After an extensive shootout, Brawn decided to stick with Barrichello inspite of knowing the financial situation in his team was not good. Why do you think that is ?

- If you look at his history in F1, it has always been in cash strapped teams :
1. HRT (which only hires pay drivers)
2. Renault in 2011 (which replaced Nick Heidfeld midway through his solid season inspite of having more points than his teammate, for Bruno's $$$)
3. Now Williams

Everyone knows that Pastor Maldonado brings in millions to the Williams team, and so does Bruno. Dont believe me ? Check out some of these links :
Formula One | Trulli: Pay-drivers not good enough for F1

Honda told: Keep Rubens over Senna | F1 News | Nov 2008 | Crash.Net

BBC - Andrew Benson: How good is Bruno Senna?


"Senna's path to the Williams seat was eased by a substantial sponsorship package from Brazil, a situation that will inevitably see him labelled in some quarters as a 'pay-driver"

Let me also clarify this : Ofcourse he is a super talent to make it this far, so was Karthikeyan, Monteiro, and others who have paid their way to get into F1. However, the fact that these drivers have to pay for their seats is because there are other, more talented drivers out there that dont get a chance because they dont have big name sponsors backing them or because their sponsors cant pay enough.

Senna has had some very big name sponsors at GP2 like Santander and Embratel and also the surname which is the most marketable surname in F1 along with Schumacher.

Whats more, he was beaten soundly by Petrov and Maldonado as teammates, both of whom are unknown quantities themselves. After Renault evaluated him for a good part of 3-4 months, he was replaced by Grosjean in the current season. He had close to half a season in a top team and he blew his chance.

I mean, everything about Bruno's F1 career screams 'pay driver', how can you not see it ??

[J.B]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

- Senna, in 2009 was in direct contention for a seat at the Brawn GP car, along with Di Grassi and Barrichello. After an extensive shootout, Brawn decided to stick with Barrichello inspite of knowing the financial situation in his team was not good. Why do you think that is ?

Exactly my point, talent is still important. If Rubens was impressive, he would have retained his 2012 drive. I don't think Williams is any less passionate about winning than Brawn.

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Everyone knows that Pastor Maldonado brings in millions to the Williams team, and so does Bruno. Dont believe me ? Check out some of these links :
Formula One | Trulli: Pay-drivers not good enough for F1

Honda told: Keep Rubens over Senna | F1 News | Nov 2008 | Crash.Net

BBC - Andrew Benson: How good is Bruno Senna?


"Senna's path to the Williams seat was eased by a substantial sponsorship package from Brazil, a situation that will inevitably see him labelled in some quarters as a 'pay-driver"

The same article by Andrew Benson concludes like this "Backed by a budget or not, then, Senna more than deserves a chance to show what he can do."

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Let me also clarify this : Ofcourse he is a super talent to make it this far, so was Karthikeyan, Monteiro, and others who have paid their way to get into F1. However, the fact that these drivers have to pay for their seats is because there are other, more talented drivers out there that dont get a chance because they dont have big name sponsors backing them or because their sponsors cant pay enough.

Senna has had some very big name sponsors at GP2 like Santander and Embratel and also the surname which is the most marketable surname in F1 along with Schumacher.

Whats more, he was beaten soundly by Petrov and Maldonado as teammates, both of whom are unknown quantities themselves. After Renault evaluated him for a good part of 3-4 months, he was replaced by Grosjean in the current season. He had close to half a season in a top team and he blew his chance.

I mean, everything about Bruno's F1 career screams 'pay driver', how can you not see it ??

Well, I see it as there is a huge talent pool of drivers and those who manage to get the financial backing get a seat in F1.

What I don't see is why is it made such a big issue recently.

Do you think Renault replacing Bruno with Grosjean was purely based on merit? Yes he is a a GP2 champion, but seems like he too brought millions through TOTAL which secured him the drive inspite of his terrible F1 debut. Now that he has secured 2 podiums, no one dares to question his talent.

Check out this article which discusses about the pay drivers in F1. Even Alain Prost and Micheal Schumacher are on the list.

http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/03/16/in-formula-1-cash-may-trump-skill-in-landing-a-ride/

Some quotes from the article,
"Romain Grosjean paid Lotus an estimated $5 million to drive for the team this season through his sponsorship with French oil major Total. “Total is delighted to give the young talented French driver… the opportunity to fulfil his dream,” a company statement said when the Lotus deal was announced."

"To be fair, pay drivers have been part of the sport since the earliest days of Grand Prix racing and some of the greatest names in Formula 1 history may have struggled to break into the sport without financial assistance."

"Niki Lauda, the legendary Austrian driver, paid his way through two seasons in Formula 1 before a dazzling drive at the Monaco Grand Prix in 1973 earned him a move to Ferrari, where he won the first of three world titles. Alain Prost, who won four world championships, was helped into the sport by the Elf Aquitaine oil company. Even Michael Schumacher, the most successful driver of all time, paid for his seat at Jordan in his rookie year."

"There’s no question some pay drivers had no business being in Formula 1, but it’s also true that the lines between pay drivers and paid drivers are starting to blur. Sergio Perez was signed by Sauber in part because of his lucrative sponsorship deal with Telmex, the Mexican fixed-line phone company. But he proved to be a brave, fast and aggressive driver and one of the surprises of the 2011 season, scoring points in five of his 19 races."

“For a team, it has always been about finding the right balance between financial considerations and talent,” said Christian Horner, team principal of Red Bull Racing. “It’s something as old as Formula 1."

IMHO, yes we are not in an ideal world. But at the same time, it is not like the teams would hire someone knowing for sure that he does not deserve a seat. If Senna, does not improve this season, he is likely to be replaced next season, no matter how much money he brings in. Hence, it is too strong to say he is there just because of his money or name.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by J.B

I agree, But it has always been like that. Talent + money is what you need for any form of racing. Eventually, the talented would shine.

Yes, for a rookie! Senna is not a rookie

Maldo not only brought the money, he brought the much needed WIN. Point is, without talent, they are unlikely to fetch money.

He brought the win only after he paid the money sit in the driver's seat. What are you after dude!?

Senna is a pay driver and he is bringing in lot of money for Williams as of now! His results are there for you to see it, nothing great in GP2, absolutely nothing in F1.

[J.B]

Originally Posted by anachronix

He brought the win only after he paid the money sit in the driver's seat. What are you after dude!?

Senna is a pay driver and he is bringing in lot of money for Williams as of now! His results are there for you to see it, nothing great in GP2, absolutely nothing in F1.

Dude, I am just trying to say pay driver or not, one can be in F1 only if he has the potential and it is not like you and me can become F1 pilots if we go with a million dollar cheque. Bruno spent a season with HRT and a half season with an unreliable Renault team. In this season, he has 16 points, 1 less than the legendary Schumacher who spent his last two years with a top team. You might argue Schumacher had his fair share of reliability issues and pit stop errors, but then even spending an year with HRT which races to just see the finish line should not be taken as a performance indicator.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by J.B

Exactly my point, talent is still important. If Rubens was impressive, he would have retained his 2012 drive. I don't think Williams is any less passionate about winning than Brawn.




The same article by Andrew Benson concludes like this "Backed by a budget or not, then, Senna more than deserves a chance to show what he can do."



Well, I see it as there is a huge talent pool of drivers and those who manage to get the financial backing get a seat in F1.

What I don't see is why is it made such a big issue recently.

Do you think Renault replacing Bruno with Grosjean was purely based on merit? Yes he is a a GP2 champion, but seems like he too brought millions through TOTAL which secured him the drive inspite of his terrible F1 debut. Now that he has secured 2 podiums, no one dares to question his talent.

Check out this article which discusses about the pay drivers in F1. Even Alain Prost and Micheal Schumacher are on the list.

http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/03/16/in-formula-1-cash-may-trump-skill-in-landing-a-ride/

Some quotes from the article,
"Romain Grosjean paid Lotus an estimated $5 million to drive for the team this season through his sponsorship with French oil major Total. “Total is delighted to give the young talented French driver… the opportunity to fulfil his dream,” a company statement said when the Lotus deal was announced."

"To be fair, pay drivers have been part of the sport since the earliest days of Grand Prix racing and some of the greatest names in Formula 1 history may have struggled to break into the sport without financial assistance."

"Niki Lauda, the legendary Austrian driver, paid his way through two seasons in Formula 1 before a dazzling drive at the Monaco Grand Prix in 1973 earned him a move to Ferrari, where he won the first of three world titles. Alain Prost, who won four world championships, was helped into the sport by the Elf Aquitaine oil company. Even Michael Schumacher, the most successful driver of all time, paid for his seat at Jordan in his rookie year."

"There’s no question some pay drivers had no business being in Formula 1, but it’s also true that the lines between pay drivers and paid drivers are starting to blur. Sergio Perez was signed by Sauber in part because of his lucrative sponsorship deal with Telmex, the Mexican fixed-line phone company. But he proved to be a brave, fast and aggressive driver and one of the surprises of the 2011 season, scoring points in five of his 19 races."

“For a team, it has always been about finding the right balance between financial considerations and talent,” said Christian Horner, team principal of Red Bull Racing. “It’s something as old as Formula 1."

IMHO, yes we are not in an ideal world. But at the same time, it is not like the teams would hire someone knowing for sure that he does not deserve a seat. If Senna, does not improve this season, he is likely to be replaced next season, no matter how much money he brings in. Hence, it is too strong to say he is there just because of his money or name.

I think we are going off a tangent here,

Firstly you were asking for proof about Senna being a pay driver, which I gave you. So that is out of the way atleast.

Now, you're comparing Bruno Sennas early breaks in F1 to the likes of Niki Lauda, Alain Prost and Michael Schumacher. Lets see, we should also add a few more names to this list :
1. Fernando Alonso paid for his seat at Minardi in 2001
2. Sebastian Vettel and Lewis Hamilton have been financially helped by Red Bull and Mclaren respectively through their growing years
3. Paul Di Resta is a product of the Mercedes young driver programme, much like Michael Schumacher was 20 + years ago.


Now lets go through their results in lower racing formulae and in their initial years in F1 :
1. Michael Schumacher blitzed his way through the lower formulae, won many many karting championships (often with bad equipment), then won Formula 3, was highly impressive in sportscar and in his first ever test for Jordan broke the teams lap record at Silverstone. He gave Jordan their best qualifying of the year at Spa 1991 (the drive was sponsored), and was promptly brought out by Flavio Briatore of Benetton racing. So he was a pay driver for, yes, 1 race. The rest is history.

2. Niki Lauda took out a loan to get into F3, where the March team were highly impressed with his racing pedigree and promptly got him a drive in the F1 team, where he was noticed up and down the paddock. Yes, he was a pay driver, but he was quick enough to be noticed by none other than Enzo Ferrari himself which gave him a Ferrari drive in just 3 seasons of F1 racing.

3. Lewis Hamilton completely obliterated his opposition in almost all lower formulae in his path to F1. Karting, Formula A, Formula 3, Formula Renault and most notably GP2. I think he has won everything there is to win before entering F1. In his very first season he took the fight to the best driver in F1 at the time Alonso.

4. Alain Prost won almost every karting championship he entered, destroyed his competition in Formula Renault, won in F3 and then was signed by Mclaren (I think he is the last debutant Mclaren driver before Lewis). In his first season he was mightily impressive and in his second season at Renault he was immediately quicker than Arnoux who was highly regarded in Formula 1.

I could go on and on about drivers with real merit through lower Formulae and in their early years in F1 but the point I am trying to make is very clear.

In comparison to this, what exactly has Bruno Senna got apart from a second place in GP2 and then a piss poor 2 seasons with HRT and Renault ? Do you think this is even a comparison worth bringing up ?

Let me tell you something about his time at HRT. Chandhok/ Yamamoto was replaced by Christian Klien in the team for the Singapore GP in 2010. It was Klien's first race for the team and Senna's 15th. In Qualifying Klien was over a second faster than Bruno in his first F1 race in almost 2 years !

When he was in Renault, the team replaced Nick Heidfeld midway through the season who had 30 odd points already. Bruno Senna got 2 points in the remaining 8 races he had. And he was slow, erratic and accident prone in a team that was at worst a decent midfield team.

I think there is enough evidence out there to show you that Senna is not really there due to his talent. The other drivers you mentioned on this list have had distinguished careers in lower formulae as well as being mighty impressive out of the box in Formula 1. Bruno Senna in comparison, has been decidedly average in the approximately 30 chances in Formula 1 that he has had.

Originally Posted by J.B

Dude, I am just trying to say pay driver or not, one can be in F1 only if he has the potential and it is not like you and me can become F1 pilots if we go with a million dollar cheque.

This is pretty obvious. We are not discussing wheter Bruno Senna races better than you or me, but rather whether he is fit to be driving the top tier of the sport, which he clearly is not.


Edit : "one can be in F1 only if he has the potential"

Tell that to Sakon Yamammoto, Taki Inoue, Yuji Ide, Narain Karthikeyan, Esteban Tuero, Alex Yoong, etc etc etc

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by J.B

Dude, I am just trying to say pay driver or not, one can be in F1 only if he has the potential and it is not like you and me can become F1 pilots if we go with a million dollar cheque.

Isnt Narain driving an F1 car yet!?

Bruno spent a season with HRT and a half season with an unreliable Renault team. In this season, he has 16 points, 1 less than the legendary Schumacher who spent his last two years with a top team. You might argue Schumacher had his fair share of reliability issues and pit stop errors, but then even spending an year with HRT which races to just see the finish line should not be taken as a performance indicator.

PuntoMania has answered more than what you asked for! Bruno has paid to come all the way upto F1, if he had the potential he wont be paying for his drive for the 3rd consecutive year!