[jraj]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

Surely, Webber's engineer had the same data, the team had the data and could see what Vettel was doing from lap 39 onwards.

Did they tell Vettel to back off after his last stop, to ensure Multi-21 is reached after Webber's last stop?

Did they tell Webber to turn down his engine before his last stop itself and assured him that Vettel won't be close enough to overtake, even though they could see that Vettel was charging?

At what point did Webber really turn his engine down? Mid-way through his in-lap or out-lap when he was under attack or during the next 2 laps before he was overtaken?

Webber did his fastest in-lap, his fastest out-lap and his fastest lap of the race on laps 43, 44 and 45 just before he was overtaken on lap 46. Yet we say only Vettel was racing and Webber was "cruising" with his engine turned down? Some cruising, that

Well said.Even I was trying to figure out when and where Webber was cruising and where did Vettel backstab him

Like pointed out so many times in this thread,there have been instances when the roles have been reversed in the past - when Webber "stood up" to the team.Maybe they didnt get flaredup as in those situations he still couldnt find a way past

We have also seen in the not so distant past,when 1 driver broke the pact and overtook his teammate,the said teammate too going bonkers driving wheel to wheel and reclaiming his position.So whats the whole point in sticking to the pact,which in anycase been broken.Why not put in purples in the remaining 12 laps and settle it on the track instead of sulking and whining later - maybe,just maybe it boils down to the skillsets.Webber couldnt do what Lewis did

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by Mpower

These are his personal best lap times, not the best lap times of the race. As the fuel load burns off you can expect lap times to improve as long as the tires are not fading off. Racing 101

Vettel did his fastest in-lap, his fastest out-lap and his fastest lap on laps 42, 43 and 45. Those are also personal bests. Shall we apply the same standards and call that also Racing 101 or is that still "racing"?

By the way, Webber's lap 45 would've been the fastest lap of the race (till that point) if it had not been bettered by Vettel on the same lap, milliseconds later. Still not racing, just "cruising", eh?

Originally Posted by Mpower

He was told to be patient and maintain a certain pace so as to look after his tires...just like Webber was doing....not to deny him a victory

Vettel was initially told to maintain gap to Webber. When he was chased by Hamilton, he was asked to be patient since half the race is yet to run. Could you please let me know when exactly did RB give Vettel the permission to "race" Webber and have a shot at victory? When he was behind Hamilton?

Originally Posted by Mpower

Do you really think these questions have not been raised by Vettel himself?? Obviously they have and it has been explained to his satisfaction and thats why he's apologized

He apologized because he publicly challenged the authority of team/team principal by his actions. It has been an PR disaster for him and RB. This is probably the (public) disciplinary action RB has taken. Vettel asking questions and receiving satisfactory answers before apologizing is just guess work by you. He apologized at the post-race PC itself before any question/answer.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by jraj

We have also seen in the not so distant past,when 1 driver broke the pact and overtook his teammate,the said teammate too going bonkers driving wheel to wheel and reclaiming his position.So whats the whole point in sticking to the pact,which in anycase been broken.Why not put in purples in the remaining 12 laps and settle it on the track instead of sulking and whining later - maybe,just maybe it boils down to the skillsets.Webber couldnt do what Lewis did

So because my team-mate is better than me, he has the right to stab me in the back?

Did anyone of you hear Alex Yoong's thought on the battle for lead before the lead changed? If not, here's the jist - according to him, Webber could have easily+legitimately pushed Vettel to the grass (just like Hulk did to Kimi in the same race) had he been fighting hard and tough. But he didn't as it was his team-mate.

I bet Webber won't make that mistake again!

[jraj]

Originally Posted by asr245

So because my team-mate is better than me, he has the right to stab me in the back?

I bet Webber won't make that mistake again!

Well,where exactly did this back stabbing happen?Vettel pitted on Lap42 and Webber on 43.When he came out,they were so so close werent they?Almost going wheel to wheel for a while?

We still dont know what was the communication between RBR\Vettel\Webber post the overtake and what timings Vettel \ Webber did for the final 12 laps.

As far as Webber not making that mistake again goes - well the season is very young.We will see.But going by the 100+ and 140+ points gap that Vettel had in last 2 years,I wont bet big on that

[asr245]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...done-the-same/

So SV has done it and MW also would have done the same. So Christian, I guess now you can destroy your handbook on "driver agreements". Good luck managing your drivers next time they are racing each other.

Originally Posted by jraj

Well,where exactly did this back stabbing happen?Vettel pitted on Lap42 and Webber on 43.When he came out,they were so so close werent they?Almost going wheel to wheel for a while?

"Multi-21", RBR seeking an explanation, tensed faces on the podium (drivers + AN + CH), Vettel apologising. What else do you need? Vettel hosting a sign board reading "I broke a pre race agreement"??

[D33-PAC]

Christian Horner now claims Alonso or Hamilton would done the same thing.

First he claims its useless reprimanding Vettel because he wouldn't listen and now he's defending Vettel.

What a team boss, or at least a bossn in name, if he can't handle a driver might as well leave the job to a eunuch.

Ross Brawn, now that's a boss, he really does put the brawn in being a boss.

[jraj]

Originally Posted by asr245

So SV has done it and MW also would have done the same. So Christian, I guess now you can destroy your handbook on "driver agreements". Good luck managing your drivers next time they are racing each other.

"Multi-21", RBR seeking an explanation, tensed faces on the podium (drivers + AN + CH), Vettel apologising. What else do you need? Vettel hosting a sign board reading "I broke a pre race agreement"??

Sebastian vettel and Mark webber are not Senna and Prost and neither is CH Ron Dennis.This incident is getting blown way out of proportion.

In a sport where the driver and his Race engineer know exactly what timing the other 21 drivers are doing in the track,where they gain,where they lose etc,if Webber didnt know that Vettel was right on his tail,well then he deserves it maybe,no?

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

He apologized because he publicly challenged the authority of team/team principal by his actions. It has been an PR disaster for him and RB. This is probably the (public) disciplinary action RB has taken. Vettel asking questions and receiving satisfactory answers before apologizing is just guess work by you. He apologized at the post-race PC itself before any question/answer.

He apologized at the PC and also later in a RBR press release.

If he didn't ask questions or clarifications, then that's because he didn't need it. He knew he violated an agreement between RBR, him & Webber and more importantly, because he agrees that the agreement was a fair one

Bottomline, overtaking a teammate whose engine is turned down is not really overtaking...its cheating.

What a team boss, or at least a bossn in name, if he can't handle a driver might as well leave the job to a eunuch.

Ross Brawn, now that's a boss, he really does put the brawn in being a boss.

It's because of Helmut Marko that Vettel has the guts to do things like this...the guy knows nothing about racing but hangs around the RBR Paddock only to play politics.

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by Mpower

Bottomline, overtaking a teammate whose engine is turned down is not really overtaking...its cheating.

You've dodged all those lap time data I quoted which show Webber was hardly "cruising" when he was overtaken and have simply come back to square one

You are also silent on when you think Vettel was allowed to race Webber since there are clear indications that he wasn't allowed to do that till lap 28/29 (radio messages).

Were they atleast allowed to race from then onwards to lap 43/44 when Webber made his last stop? Is that a fair assumption?

If you think so, would you agree that Vettel erased Webber's lead to effectively 0 by the time Webber made his pit-stop and emerged from the pits, even though he was 5s behind on lap 38?

Would you then agree that Vettel caught up with his team-mate who was NOT cruising till he stopped? And that your earlier comment about "When he's on fire..blah..blah.." indicating Webber was the faster driver on the day is again just an opinion and not something that can be supported with lap time data?

Let's have some good answers to those questions, something that can be supported with data. Until then, good bye and good luck.

[Mpower]

You are silent & unable to explain what the apology was all about when asked repeatedly. You seem to imply that Vettel apologized for nothing and that Webber was faking his emotions on the podium

You've dodged all those lap time data I quoted which show Webber was hardly "cruising" when he was overtaken and have simply come back to square one

What data? you think Christian Horner does not understand this?Thats because Webber's engine was turned off & Vettel's was not. Webber could've gone faster if he turned it up as well.

You are also silent on when you think Vettel was allowed to race Webber since there are clear indications that he wasn't allowed to do that till lap 28/29 (radio messages).

Do you think Adrian Newey does not know this? Let me repeat once again....they are asked to maintain a certain pace so as to not destroy the tires. Its called tire management. You can drive super fast and destroy the tires in few laps. Racing 101.

Would you then agree that Vettel caught up with his team-mate who was NOT cruising till he stopped?

He caught up & erased the lead because he turned his engine on.

indicating Webber was the faster driver on the day is again just an opinion and not something that can be supported with lap time data?

Well I got news for you. Christian Horner, Adrian Newey and even Vettel agree that Webber was the better driver that day & hence the apology. Otherwise what is there to apologize???

[jraj]

A page ago anachronix posted link to the laptimes that Vettel and Webber did.

Looking at those,its very very clear no one was cruising anytime.Can someone please explain looking at that data to show in which lap Webber turned his engine down?Lap timings should definitely be indicative of it,isnt it?

At the end of final pitstops,both of them were wheel to wheel.

The racing 102 says,it aint over until its over.Just like Vettel showed,you can settle purple timings and still win the race.

..and between Dear Mr Dietrich Mateschitz,you seem to have hired a guy who knows nothing about racing ,to be your Formula1 team advisor.Please fire him for your team to acheive greater laurels.While you do that,please do not forget that you heard it first in TBhp

Christian Horner has also said that what Vettel did wasnt unique to him alone and his other driver had chosen to do the same in the past when things suited him.So ....

[vb-saan]

Martin Brundle’s comment on the ongoing arguments

“Webber/Vettel saga has been brilliant for F1. Heated debate still raging the Thursday after race. You can't buy that kind of publicity”

[anachronix]

Easter wishes folks

Dude, btw the whole problem is about Vettel ignoring his team orders. The same orders he wanted to obey when he couldnt catch Webber and the one he disobeyed when Webber was cruising.

He was behind the Merc for just 3 laps!

Originally Posted by StarrySky

Did you miss the part when he was told (team order) to hold 3s gap to Webber? Did you miss the part where when he was close enough was told be patient since half the race is yet to run? Did you miss the part where, during that phase, he got so much backed up towards the Mercedes that he lost a position during the pit-stop? Did you miss the part where he first had to get past the Mercedes and then chase Webber?

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by jraj

Looking at those,its very very clear no one was cruising anytime.Can someone please explain looking at that data to show in which lap Webber turned his engine down?Lap timings should definitely be indicative of it,isnt it?

Turning down the engine is not like losing 2 cylinders. You are not going to see it crash BOOM

Plus there are 4 things (or more) at work that will affect laptimes

-turning down engine - slower
-fuel load burning off - quicker
-tires wearing - slower
-driver backing off intentionally to save tires- slower

The laptime is the combined effect of all these.

Christian Horner has also said that what Vettel did wasnt unique to him alone and his other driver had chosen to do the same in the past when things suited him.So

So...nothing. We just need to recognize that it happened. Nobody is asking for Vettel head to roll (at least not me)

[jraj]

Originally Posted by Mpower

Turning down the engine is not like losing 2 cylinders. You are not going to see it crash BOOM

Plus there are 4 things (or more) at work that will affect laptimes
turning down engine - slower
fuel load burning off - quicker
tires wearing - slower
driver backing off intentionally to save tires- slower

The laptime is the combined effect of all these.


So...nothing. We just need to recognize that it happened. Nobody is asking for Vettel head to roll (at least not me)

Thank you so much for explaining that.The surprising point to note here is Webber's timings few laps before his final pitstop and until the lap that Vettel overtook him is almost consistent.His lap timings are at the most lying between 3 tenths.

We can see that he has entered cruise mode a lap after Vettel overtook him.He started doing 1.42.xxx instead of the 1.41.xxx he was doing prior to his pitstop.Its very clear that he was just going through the the motions here.

Its not about Vettel's head rolling,but trying to only understand at which point did Vettel gain by pulling a fast one over a unsuspecting Webber.That's the reason why the lap timings get pulled in time and again.

Anyways,nice debate it has been.Time to focus on the Easter Turkey now