[gatham.psb]

Is it just me or are there other fans who miss wet weather racing? Now and then we used to get to see drivers that would shine when conditions in wet took away advantage of big teams.

On topic of 2014 season, i just hope that the new rule changes get the focus back to the driver and not just the car.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by julupani

Tell me one occassion where Vettel's driving has completely floored you???

An occasion like Schumacher's victory in France where he won while having done two extra stops compared to everybody else, or when he strung together almost 20 consecutive qualifiying pace laps in Hungary, or have the consistency to finish on the podium in every race of a season. Or lets talk about how Fangio could overhaul a competitor 10 seconds ahead of him in a matter of a couple of laps. And lets not even get into the exploits of the great Ayrton Senna.

Schum and Vettel are in a different era. Schum could do that (hell! even Webber did that at Hungary 2010) because he didn't have to worry about tires going off. These days they are a worry. Vettel didn't have to worry about tires in Singapore (after the SC) and he went clear by 30 seconds in a matter of 10-15 laps. But no he can't be great because he was using an illegal traction control.

Originally Posted by julupani

But he is no Schumacher/Fangio/Senna equal.

He's no Schum equal. He's above him cause he hasn't cheated. No comments on Fangio or Senna.

[zenren]

Originally Posted by julupani

An occasion like Schumacher's victory in France where he won while having done two extra stops compared to everybody else, or when he strung together almost 20 consecutive qualifiying pace laps in Hungary, or have the consistency to finish on the podium in every race of a season.

In a single line, F1 has changed a lot from 2000-2004 era to 2009-2013 era.

During the Schumi days, rules didn't mandate the car to carry full race fuel from the start. He could refuel during the race, which means he would have been running on considerably lighter fuel load than others as he knew he would be stopping more frequently. Also, he had a huge advantage with Bridgestone designing tyres almost exclusively for Ferrari (which indirectly means MS) since all other front runners were on Michelin. In current era, the Pirelli is in not designed keeping Vettel's preferences in mind.

Same goes with the putting 20 consecutive qualifying pace laps during a race. Qualifying is not done with race fuel load which means the only time this can be simulated is towards the last 20 laps of a race. Also, which Pirelli tyre can withstand 20 laps at qualifying pace without bursting into pieces?

Vettel's performance in 2011 is similar where the only exceptions were 4th in Germany and DNF in Abu Dhabi. Both seasons doesn't speak of the greatness of the driver. It just says the car they drove was light years ahead of the competition. If we look at performances of their team mates, Rubens was much closer to Schumi in 2002 than Webber was to Vettel in 2011.

[D33-PAC]

Originally Posted by julupani

For most F1 fans, Senna will be number 1 all time great. But his statistics are not as great as quite a few others.

I agree. Vettel does not deserve his name to be around those names.

F1 then was totally different. When you were pushing you were playing with death - almost negligible amounts of downforce - no sophisticated equipment.

It's like a joke to see people say Vettel is a modern day Senna. How they can compare is beyond me. It is like people trying to Apples and Oranges.


As a word of advice, never try to reason with Vettel fans. They are like zombies !

[julupani]

Originally Posted by asr245

Schum and Vettel are in a different era.

Originally Posted by zenren

In a single line, F1 has changed a lot from 2000-2004 era to 2009-2013 era.

Again you guys dont seem to get it. It's not about a particular feat, of putting in 20 consecutive laps or anything else.

Its about achieving something which was seemingly impossible to achieve.

Like I said may be in future Vettel will mature even more and become even better and go on to reach the pinnacle. He is definitely pretty damn close to getting there, but not yet.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by D33-PAC

As a word of advice, never try to reason with Vettel fans. They are like zombies !

Strange. I feel the same way about Schum fans!

Originally Posted by D33-PAC

I agree. Vettel does not deserve his name to be around those names.

If Schum deserves to be there then so does Vettel. IMO, categories should be Fangio, Senna & the best of the rest. If you ignore statistics, then Alonso deserves to be up there. Hakkinen probably deserves it too. It surely is almost impossible to recover from a horrific crash and then win 2 WDCs. That said then what about Niki Lauda?

And I am no Vettel fan, but he still deserves all his dues. To me it just seems that Schum fans can't handle the fact that someone is already close to obliviate his records, which they thought would last forever.

[zenren]

Originally Posted by D33-PAC

I agree. Vettel does not deserve his name to be around those names.

F1 then was totally different. When you were pushing you were playing with death - almost negligible amounts of downforce - no sophisticated equipment.

It's like a joke to see people say Vettel is a modern day Senna. How they can compare is beyond me. It is like people trying to Apples and Oranges.


As a word of advice, never try to reason with Vettel fans. They are like zombies !

I'm going to wake up a few more sleeping Zombies

Fully agree that Vettel should not be compared to anyone like Fangio/Ascari or Prost/Senna. Just to add, Schumi doesn't deserve to be in that league either. Even he gets a name among the greats just because he survived in F1 for so long and has most of the statistics and records in his name. To me, comparing Vettel to Schumi IS apples to apples comparison and that is the comparison I've heard mostly.

I've started following F1 from the Senna years, basically started learning to read by reading anything related to cars and motor sports. I've never been a fan of Schumi back in his hey days and I'm certainly not a fan of Vettel now. I've been an F1 fan who supports strong and exceptional performances, irrespective of the colour of the car.

Again, most F1 fans these days (not all) are either Vettel fans or Vettel haters (again, mostly die-hard Ferrari and Alonso fans as is evident from the booing that Vettel got from a crowd wearing red) and both categories rely purely on emotion rather than hard facts.

EDIT:
asr245,
Just saw your post after I submitted mine and I guess we've covered the same things mostly.

As you rightly said, most die-hard Ferrari fans these days became Ferrari fans because they were Schumi fans and they stayed loyal to Ferrari till Schumi came back in 2010 to Mercedes. Since then, they've been a confused lot, not knowing whether to support Schumi or Ferrari. Luckily for them, Schumi didn't give many memorable moments except perhaps the crash in 2011 Singapore GP and they remained with Ferrari.

[F150]

Vettel has too much advantage over the rest of the field thru his car.

There is nothing great about it.

Any race is best enjoyed, when all the teams are closely matched and driver skill shines.

[anachronix]

This is childish, the facts about his wins are true is what I said. Why would you want to make a different meaning out of it and make it fit your agenda?

Originally Posted by jraj

Dont you think you are contradicting big time here.From the post above saying first half of 2009 Vettel was nowhere until Newey cameup with a much better car in the second half of 2009.

When zenren posted what Vettel did in first half of 2009,you say you agree with him?


Only 1 of those statements can be correct,right?

The race where even Michael moved over? I do remember that, if he passed any car that is worth its DiR, Gro & Button in AbuDhabi.

Well looking just only at AbuDhabi 2012 and Saupaulo 2012,seems you have missed quite a lot of the 2012 season

I never saw Michael follow a slower car for 40laps being unable to overtake in his whole career. Even when Michael had a bad car, he was always there fighting for wins. Please dont compare him with Michael, if you are desperate you have Senna for a legend.

How important the car is,everyone understands.But there also has to be the best driver behind the wheels to compliment it.Thats why MSC won 5 between 2000 - 2004.Had it been all down to the car,then we might well be looking at Rubens with 5 WDC's

In my very humble opinion Vettel's efforts in 2011 and 2013 on Newey's cars is equally good if not better than Michael's efforts in 2002 and 2004 on Byrne's car.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by anachronix

I never saw Michael follow a slower car for 40laps being unable to overtake in his whole career. Even when Michael had a bad car, he was always there fighting for wins.

I can remember one instance when Vettel followed Massa for more than half tha race. That was at Spain 2009. Are you talking about that? Or was there another? Ferrari had KERS on it's cars then and RBR didn't. One reason why Vettel couldn't do it.

Was there another?

[zenren]

Originally Posted by anachronix

I never saw Michael follow a slower car for 40laps being unable to overtake in his whole career. Even when Michael had a bad car, he was always there fighting for wins.

Was it someone else driving for Mercedes from 2010-2012 alongside Rosberg? I didn't know MS was fighting for wins while driving at P9. Or maybe you're right, he was busy getting the record for maximum number of retirements in a season that he couldn't drive for 40 laps in a race, leave alone leading or following a car.

Please dont compare him with Michael, if you are desperate you have Senna for a legend.

No comments!

[jraj]

Originally Posted by anachronix

This is childish.......

I never saw Michael follow a slower car for 40laps being unable to overtake in his whole career. Even when Michael had a bad car, he was always there fighting for wins.

Its funny that you comment the post is childish.Go back and read again and you will see your post on the early half of 2009 season and Zenren's reply to it

Being held up - well we have seen lot such occurances from various drivers,I am not really sure what to make of it.Yesterday we saw Alonso stuck behind Ricciardo .Was the Torro Rosso faster than the Ferrari - I bet not.Have seen Michael struggle behind Jaime Alguersuari in 2010 Australia.

Leaving aside all that,if we look at the WDC's won by Senna,Michael,Alonso and now Vettel,they all did it when they had the competitive car in the grid.None of them won a WDC when they didnt have a competitive car.Flashes of brilliance here and there - Yes,WDC - No.Period.

Its not just the car alone,had it been then why didnt a Barrichello or a Webber or a Fisichella win even a single WDC.And definitely its not just the driver alone too.

But I do believe to do it 4 times in a row,you definitely have to be special.

I started liking Vettel after his race in 2010 AbuDhabi GP.Entering the race third in WDC contention and 15 points behind Alonso and then snatching it away from him shows the guy has what it takes.

If one looks at his career path in F1,he has always showed that he is capable of much laurels.The timings he set when he got to drive the BMW car on Fridays was good.Even with the Torro Rosso,he showed some very good driving skills.We saw some mistakes but then we can excuse those for he was just a 20 year old in a F1 car - Fuji was spectacular until he ran into the back of Webber's car and also the victory in Italy in a TR.

He joined RBR when the team was on the rise and has stayed at the top since then.I dont think its a fault.So lets cut some slack on him.

[himanshugoswami]

I am a hardcore Schumi Fan and was a Vettel critic......until yesterday.

I saw F1 live at the BIC and was seated at a point where the cars came down the back straight at > 300 kph, slowed down for a U turn, and then accelerated up the hill.

One thing that struck me lap after lap was that Vettel was getting on the power a fraction of a second before any other driver. Now, there is no scientific or mathematical basis to my claim. It was just my seat of the pants observation, being so close to the action, and when you are concentrating so hard, you tend to pick up the subtle variations and nuances.

if my observation has any basis in fact, then that means that Vettel has quicker reflexes and responses than the entire field. Viewing him live move up from 12th to lead the race so comprehensively was a revelation and a Joy- it is surely not boring....he is just leagues ahead of the rest. Simple

Of course, Schumi still remains my favourite.

[zoombiee]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

I am a hardcore Schumi Fan and was a Vettel critic......until yesterday.

I saw F1 live at the BIC and was seated at a point where the cars came down the back straight at > 300 kph, slowed down for a U turn, and then accelerated up the hill.

One thing that struck me lap after lap was that Vettel was getting on the power a fraction of a second before any other driver. Now, there is no scientific or mathematical basis to my claim. It was just my seat of the pants observation, being so close to the action, and when you are concentrating so hard, you tend to pick up the subtle variations and nuances.

if my observation has any basis in fact, then that means that Vettel has quicker reflexes and responses than the entire field. Viewing him live move up from 12th to lead the race so comprehensively was a revelation and a Joy- it is surely not boring....he is just leagues ahead of the rest. Simple

Of course, Schumi still remains my favourite.

Not sure that its about reflexes or responses. The RBR rear diffuser works much different than other teams and much much more effectively. This needs a slightly different way of approaching corners where in the you enter the curve with lot of rear disruption and immediately hit the accelerator once you have entered the corner. The downforces generated by the aerodynamic setup of the car make sure it grips on well.
Also, was reading about the rear tray setup of redbull, which apprently changes height with change in temperature. That apprently was the reason they are doing so well after the tyres were changed.

[avi550m]

While I do appreciate Vettel's celebrations, a nice touch in what is otherwise a very sterilized sport these days, I do understand why he is disliked, or why he irks a portion of the fan base.

1. The Finger: This is one thing which really grates me, and it seems to annoy a lot of fans as well. Now why is that? Well, for one thing, we are all taught that pointing is a rude gesture. And the way Vettel points his Index finger in an upward motion is in a way similar to the actual infamous middle finer gesture. Plus is seems to signify to some that he is motioning 'up yours'. That just seems rude, arrogant and stupid.

2. He is not driving for Ferrari / McLaren / Williams etc.: Face it, a lot of fans (me included), did not really mind Schumacher winning as he was driving for Ferrari. Being a Ferrari / McLaren / Williams fan (or a fan of any team with heritage e.g. Minardi) makes it easier to like the driver, as the Fan Base for the team is already established. But the Problem here is Red Bull. The Formula 1 team seems to be something created purely as a marketing exercise. They have no Motorsport or road car heritage, and that's why people dislike them.

3. Being perceived to being given preferential treatment: Even when McLaren were dominating in the late 80s, it was tolerable to the fact that you had two teammates who were fighting tooth-and-nail, with the championship going to the decided in Japan. There seems to be a vocal opinion that Vettel is given preferential treatment at Red Bull, esp after the MULTI-21 incident in Malaysia, which soured a lot of mouths. Also, Webber's car has been failing a LOT this season as compared to Vettel's nearly impeachable reliability. This has also resulted in Speculation what while they are both driving Red Bull's, Vettel's car has the better parts / is not sabotaged unlike Webbers.'

4. Screaming like a little girl and acting like one: Seb always screams YES! YES! YES! at the end of each race as if he had to claw his way back from the back of the grid to win the race, even when it was a walk in the park. He overdramatises each win as if it's the greatest thing ever and that irks people. Also, when things do not go his own way, he is heard complaining over the radio. He expects cars racing him to just move out of the way. This comes across as immature.

5. He is no longer the underdog: Let's face it, we all love underdogs in sports. Those who punch well above their weight but still seem to have no chance for success. I loved Vettel's win at Monza in 08 as it was in a Toro Rosso (formerly Minardi). Yet in all years he seems to have been gifted the fastest car on the Grid. Why people respect Schumi more (perhaps) is because he went to an underperforming (read: Underdog) Ferrari team and it took time, but he ultimately won the championship (I still remember Suzuka 2000 fondly, when he snatched the title from Hakkinen).
Or in 2012, when the Ferrari was not even the 3rd fastest car, yet Alonso managed to run Vettel very close, earning him the title as Driver of the Year.

A lot of us can agree, we respect Vettel. Winning 4 WDC's is no joke. I can't imaging Alex Yoong (remember him?) getting a Red Bull and winning 4 WDC's. But due to the fact that Vettel is winning at the expense of other fan favourites, does not seem to struggle, drives a Marketing exercise and comes across and rude and arrogant, people seem to dislike him.