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Old 10th June 2019, 14:24   #31
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

F1 is becoming a joke. If Vettel had been cut off then it would have been a 'racing incident'. I will now think whether to watch the F1 circus in future. They had to fix 'F' esp to help 'M'. Even the more ungracious chap aka Hamilton was shaky.
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Old 10th June 2019, 14:51   #32
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

Here are the race highlights



Cheers
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Old 10th June 2019, 14:58   #33
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post

But Seb should have been more careful, he admits he had little control of the car but steering on to the racing line after the grass was dangerous, Lewis was always close behind. The attachment shows the steering angle (almost extreme right) to cut back onto track.
That is oversteer due to his rear tires jumping the curb. Not intentional. In the arial view you can see him sliding twice. For me this was to be treated as a racing incident. Hamilton had the same 7/8-tenths gap to Vettel before and after the incident. Don't really believe it compromised Hamilton's chances of overtaking the Ferrari in front as they were faster in Sector 3. Vettel did a fantastic job of defending his position all throughout.

Hopefully this incident brings this season to life.

Good outing by Ricciardo and Nico. Pressure mounting on Gasly.

Last edited by nair : 10th June 2019 at 15:08.
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Old 10th June 2019, 15:21   #34
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by ferrarirules View Post
So you say he didn't gain an advantage in that race start.
Please don't confuse the two different scenarios. One penalty is for getting an advantage after cutting the corner. The other which Vettel got here was for rejoining the track in an unsafe manner.

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Originally Posted by ferrarirules View Post
I don't consider your analysis of Monaco 2016 that Hamilton left Riccardo space correct. So cannot agree with you because Riccardo had to brake to avoid collision as well
We can argue all we want without agreeing. Here's a link to full race:

The link is timestamped to the replay of the incident. And a screengrab:
https://i.imgur.com/1tV6qD7.png

You can see that Ricciardo has more than a car's width of tarmac. Of course he can't do anything but slot in behind Hamilton is because the tarmac's wet. No traction. So, this incident is not the same as yesterday's Canadian GP. The only incident which is similar is that of Verstappen and Raikkonen. And the penalty was the same.

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Originally Posted by ferrarirules View Post
If you think that I am overreacting then the whole F1 fraternity was overreacting as well so I am happy being in the overreacting lot. And for calling FIA - MaFIA, observe 2018 and 2019 seasons and the kind of controversial decisions.
I'm not accusing of just Ferrari fans of overreacting. Everyone does it. Verstappen's fans are worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrarirules View Post
Example - The recent decision to make thinner tread tyres permanent for all races as compared to few in last season. There was clear evidence last sesaon that Merc was happier on thinner tread tyres.
Merc was happier on thinner tyres, true, but here's a quote from Vettel:
https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/15/...vettel-admits/

He admits Ferrari would be even worse off with older tyres.

This season, it's a different story. Only Mercedes has been able to understand the tyres fully, everyone else haven't been able to. Horner and Ferrari want to go to thicker treads, but who's to say they will be able to use it better? There was a significant change in aerodynamics this year.
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Old 10th June 2019, 15:51   #35
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by the_joker View Post
Please don't confuse the two different scenarios. One penalty is for getting an advantage after cutting the corner. The other which Vettel got here was for rejoining the track in an unsafe manner.
Yes, the incidents are different but one driver has the inherent capability of escaping penalties is the point that I am trying to make.

Rest this is my last post on this topic. Am I still a F1 fan? Yes. Do I remain as enthusiastic about it as before? May be 50% less. With Liberty Media struggling to attract fans, such incidents are not the steps in right direction. Micro managing racing is not something fans want.

Look at the tweet from 7 time Nascar champion. If you want to promote a sport in America, Liberty doesn't want people like him tweeting such statements. https://twitter.com/JimmieJohnson/st...27936956928000

Quote:
Merc was happier on thinner tyres, true, but here's a quote from Vettel:
https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/15/...vettel-admits/

He admits Ferrari would be even worse off with older tyres.

This season, it's a different story. Only Mercedes has been able to understand the tyres fully, everyone else haven't been able to. Horner and Ferrari want to go to thicker treads, but who's to say they will be able to use it better? There was a significant change in aerodynamics this year.
Vettel's comment was specific to Spanish GP last year because that the first time these tyres were introduced and media was speculating that the tyres were their undoing. But the same tyres didn't continue the next race. They were chosen for select races where there was alot of lateral force through the tyres.
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Old 10th June 2019, 16:06   #36
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

For every incident like this there will be always 2 opinion. It's between Ferrari lovers and Hamilton/Mercedes haters. Because for last few years Hamilton/Mercedes combo is dominating the sport like never before.

I am not going to debate whether the penalty was deserving or not. One should respect steward's decision over and above other emotions. Else there is no point in regulations and rules. Now we need consistency. If next race Hamilton doing something similar and then not penalized will end-up with lot of bashing from these pundits and medias.

I don't understand why Vettel always lose out when pressured by Hamilton. Hamilton know that very clearly and he will be doing it at every given opportunity. Vettel did a mistake and paid the price. Had he kept the car on tarmac he would have won it with pride. On the contrary Hamilton did a flawless race (apart from few lockups at Turn 10).

What Vettel/Ferrai should do now is to work on their car's down force and move forward. At least on engine side they can keep their supremacy for at least 6 more races until Phase 3 AMG is released. And Phase 2 is not 100% reliable either.

Cheers!
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Old 10th June 2019, 18:02   #37
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

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That is oversteer due to his rear tires jumping the curb. Not intentional. In the arial view you can see him sliding twice.
Not really, he over steered into the right hander, but once he got onto the grass on the left hander, he was heading straight.

Someone mentioned steering right because he was correcting wheelspin, but why was he accelerating while on the grass!
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Old 10th June 2019, 20:09   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Not really, he over steered into the right hander, but once he got onto the grass on the left hander, he was heading straight.

Someone mentioned steering right because he was correcting wheelspin, but why was he accelerating while on the grass!
Yes, he was tackling wheel spin and he was tip toeing it on the grass. You don't come off the throttle completely when you are in the lead. And grass is completely different game as compared to tarmac so you never know how much throttle is enough.

You can analyze is it as much. But it was a racing incident. No one gained or lost anything out of it so it could have been left as is.
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Old 10th June 2019, 20:11   #39
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

I thought Nico Rosberg hated Hamilton but in his youtube channel he says Vettel deserved the penalty.


Off topic. His channel also has some really great interviews with current and former drivers, team principals etc. Some of his podcast like with Daniel Ricciardo is a must watch for F1 fans.

Last edited by ajmat : 10th June 2019 at 22:38.
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Old 10th June 2019, 22:39   #40
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
I thought Nico Rosberg hated Hamilton but in his youtube channel he says Vettel deserved the penalty.
.
They actually were good friends until competitive pressures split them apart. Now that, they are far apart professionally, the personal equation has improved.
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Old 10th June 2019, 22:47   #41
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

Ferrari lodge intention to appeal Vettel penalty decision. A bit of relief finally. Stewards need to be taught a lesson.


https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...721CHpzsp.html


5 seconds penalty for any mistake is barbaric . They got stuck with this number. Especially since the interval between cars run sub second. They need to seriously think about the regulation on the penalty times.
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Old 11th June 2019, 00:13   #42
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by ferrarirules View Post
You don't come off the throttle completely when you are in the lead. And grass is completely different game as compared to tarmac so you never know how much throttle is enough.

You can analyze is it as much. But it was a racing incident. No one gained or lost anything out of it so it could have been left as is.
Vettel made the mistake and if he hadn't steered into Hamilton he would have lost the race lead. He was penalized for that. It cannot be counted as a racing incident as it(for the moment) changed the race.

He could have slowed and avoided the oversteer. Whether it was intentional or not doesn't matter. If a mistake was made and it changed the outcome of the race, it should be penalized.

You are a 'Tifosi' and naturally your opinion will be biased. But you are certainly entitled to it.
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Old 11th June 2019, 07:36   #43
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
I thought Nico Rosberg hated Hamilton but in his youtube channel he says Vettel deserved the penalty.
I think Nico has been very fair in his views & I agree with him. Sebastian slyly moved the car a lot more to the right than required and made it look like he was just "correcting the car". Check out the overhead cam too and it's very obvious that he blocked.

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Old 11th June 2019, 13:23   #44
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by ferrarirules View Post
Yes, he was tackling wheel spin and he was tip toeing it on the grass. You don't come off the throttle completely when you are in the lead. And grass is completely different game as compared to tarmac so you never know how much throttle is enough.

You can analyze is it as much. But it was a racing incident. No one gained or lost anything out of it so it could have been left as is.
Grass is a completely different ball game! exactly my point.

He cant cry wolf on the radio saying he hardly had control and almost hit the wall.. all because he was accelerating on the grass and swerving right instead of focusing on rejoining safely!

Others may not have seen the screenshot of him steering extreme right to block Lewis.
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Old 11th June 2019, 15:14   #45
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Default Re: Formula 1: The 2019 Canadian Grand Prix

I am not a Mercedes fan. Have been Ferrari for over 21 years now. But I think Vettel should have managed his exit better. But that number switch though.

Quote:
Jolyon Palmer column: Why Sebastian Vettel deserved his penalty

Link:BBC

Former F1 driver Jolyon Palmer, who left Renault during the 2017 season, is part of the BBC team and offers insight and analysis from the point of view of the competitor.

I've been at odds with the Formula 1 stewards before - both during my career and after it - but this time I'm in complete agreement. Sebastian Vettel deserved his five-second penalty in the Canadian Grand Prix.

The Ferrari driver had driven a perfect weekend, until his mistake on lap 48 of 70. But in that moment he simply cracked under moderate pressure from Lewis Hamilton and it cost him the race.

By the letter of the law, Vettel was guilty.

He either crowded another driver off the circuit - Hamilton into the wall on the exit of Turn Four, to the point where the Mercedes driver had to anchor on the brakes to avoid a collision.

Or, as his defence said, his natural momentum took him across the full width of the circuit. But in that case he is guilty of rejoining the circuit in an unsafe manner, as he was not in full control of his car, to the extent that he ran Hamilton off the road in an unsafe manner.

One of these scenarios has to be correct.

If he was forced to run all the way into Hamilton, that's not safe. If he wasn't, then he deliberately did it, and that's not fair and deserves a penalty.

You can't have it both ways, and you need to have it both ways to avoid the penalty here.

Whether the rules are right is a separate issue

Where a lot of other former drivers have offered opinion is in regards to the 'nanny state' in Formula 1 at the moment. But the 'we need to let the drivers sort it out on track' argument is a separate issue to whether Vettel should have been penalised.

That's a story for the bigger picture and further down the line, and a question of whether the regulations need to be amended. For now, in 2019, the drivers must race to the rules that exist in 2019.

After a patchy spell of stewarding a few years ago, the drivers have been continually demanding consistency in the regulations.

I've been in countless drivers' meetings with the FIA where that has been the central theme, and generally from the elder statesmen of Formula 1. That is exactly what they got in the Grand Prix on Sunday.

Vettel's incident was almost a carbon copy of Max Verstappen's with Kimi Raikkonen at the final chicane in Japan last year, just 11 races ago.

In Japan, Verstappen locked up under pressure from the Finn, cut the corner, and in rejoining he forced Raikkonen off and kept the place.

The Red Bull driver picked up a five-second penalty, and few complained about it afterwards. The general reaction was that Verstappen was too aggressive and deserved it. And I can guarantee you the Ferrari camp would have agreed with that penalty at the time.

In fact, Vettel said so publicly - stating that the driver in Raikkonen's position should not always have to take avoiding action.

The fact that Ferrari are now appealing against the Vettel penalty, which is unbelievably similar, is desperate. If anything, I believe the Verstappen case was more acceptable than the Vettel one in Canada, because he clearly tries to turn the car and not run into Raikkonen, which eliminates some of the doubt that exists in the Vettel case.

Also, Raikkonen had a bigger option to go inside or outside to avoid Verstappen, whereas Hamilton could only go to the outside, got halfway alongside the German and was then promptly ushered to the wall.

It set a precedent, though. It's not about the intentions either way; it's about the final action.

F1 is a sport not just a show

I can understand the sentiment from everybody that isn't a Mercedes fan.

Mercedes are dominant right now, Hamilton is looking more and more in control this season, and this decision from the stewards not only fizzled the Grand Prix into a damp squib, but it puts the championship into an ominous state.

Hamilton has a 29-point advantage over his closest rival, his team-mate Valtteri Bottas, after just seven races. Vettel is a massive 62 points behind.

But I'm afraid that was the right result here. Penalties can't be handed out in an inconsistent manner, depending on what fits the show and the sport at various times. That is the definition of politics in Formula 1, a favourite buzzword, that most are now unwittingly calling for.

If Formula 1 is purely a show, then fine. But it isn't, it's a sport. The right man needs to win at the end of the grand prix and in Canada the right man did.

If Vettel hadn't cracked on lap 48, we would have been talking about his amazing weekend drive, as opposed to this now controversial result. But he did crack, broke the rules, and paid the price.

Did Vettel have to go so wide?

In my opinion Vettel could have given Hamilton space on the exit of Turn Four. I don't think that his car did end up completely on the right-hand side of the track because of its natural momentum.

He had a huge snap of oversteer on corner entry, causing him to go off onto the grass.

Then another smaller oversteer as he rejoins the circuit, another small twitch on the wheel which was neither here nor there, and then he continues to veer towards the right, making no concerted effort to turn left, following his line around the corner and leaving his rival no space on his outside.

It's a move I can completely understand. I - and most former drivers - would have done the same. It's a defensive instinct to try and hold your position in a moment of panic.

But the fact that others would have done the same doesn't make it acceptable.

People should also bear in mind that the stewards have a lot more data to use in terms of speeds, camera angles and throttle/brake traces than everybody else. It doesn't mean they always get it right but here I believe that data could be significant.

They interpreted it to mean that Vettel did not need to keep moving right, that he could have made another choice, and that was decisive in the penalty being awarded.

Paying the price for an error

Overtaking is so hard in Formula 1, we know this. In the first six grands prix, we have seen one move for the lead. That came in Bahrain, an expansive circuit in the desert.

While it's acknowledged that overtaking is hard, what the driver behind can do even if not within lunging distance is pressure the driver ahead into making a mistake.

Hamilton was the quicker driver in the Grand Prix, but every time he got within half a second he struggled for that last bit in the dirty air, much like Verstappen on Hamilton himself the race before in Monaco.

But where Hamilton kept his cool in Monaco and didn't make a single error, Vettel dropped the ball in a big way. After 47 laps of pressure, Hamilton finally had his moment, and being forced into the wall or having to back off is not a fair defence from Vettel.

I'm all for hard racing, and more racing incidents as well. We don't need to apportion blame on everything. But there needs to be respect between the drivers and racing room left if we are to have a race at all. In Canada there wasn't and it's only correct that it is punished.

How Vettel played the politics well

Where Vettel ended up being genius was with his diversion tactics after the race - the pantomime smoke and mirrors of the tantrum, the meltdown, and then the eventual cheek of switching the final position markers with Hamilton in parc ferme.

It endeared him to the crowd, most of whom were Ferrari fans in Canada, and were disappointed the penalty had decided the outcome of the race. Everybody was.

But Vettel's actions ensured the talking point was the penalty, rather than the reason for it - the error from Vettel.

It continues a theme of the German cracking under pressure. Hamilton wasn't going to pass Vettel in Turn Three. It's not an overtaking place, but Vettel lost control of his car on his own, from the lead, and handed him the advantage.

It was a strange oversteer, likely caused by overheating rear tyres, and some traffic ahead which would give him dirty air and cost him grip. Possibly Vettel was even distracted following numbers on the dash (likely to be brake wear or fuel targets), or by Hamilton in the mirrors.

Whatever the reason(s), it doesn't excuse another basic error from a four-time world champion.

This was no small error. He was the only driver in the entire Grand Prix to cut the Turn Three/Four chicane. And he did so when he had his rival so close behind him as well for the lead of the race.

The last time the leader threw the race away on his own, that man was Vettel. That was also the last time Vettel had pole position - 17 races ago in Hockenheim.

He's exceptionally talented as a driver, his pole lap was brilliant and he had the race in the bag in Montreal. But this is a worryingly repetitive trend for Vettel that none of the other top drivers have had.

Indeed, Vettel threw away the Canadian Grand Prix in 2011, in very different circumstances, but a similar manner on the last lap, under moderate pressure from Jenson Button. Back then the Red Bull car was dominant enough to ensure Vettel rarely had a lot of pressure to deal with.

Now at Ferrari, this apparent flaw is being exposed repeatedly and that should be the story of the race. Another mistake from Vettel from the lead, rather than the penalty that was correctly applied to him.

Why the outcry is wrong

But let me just finish with some moderation.

Vettel picked up a five-second penalty. Yes, it decided the Grand Prix, depriving everybody of a potentially great spectacle, but this is actually the softest penalty the stewards could possibly impose for a crime Vettel quite clearly committed.

But in all of this, in the bigger picture, Vettel still finished second. It's not what he wanted, it's not what he should have had, but it's still a strong result and a finish ahead of his team-mate.

It's not like we are talking about a complete disqualification from the race, in some mad, nonsensical decision from the stewards.

The overreaction and the outcry post race has been quite frankly ludicrous.

I can only imagine it's an emotional reaction based on that fact that we are already seeing the dying embers of any hopes of a Ferrari title challenge, or potentially a title battle at all.
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