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Old 7th November 2019, 14:58   #31
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

I really hate to see these kind of comparisons. These people (the so called legends) are remembered for the positive impact they make/made on the sport, in which they competes/competed in. In most cases, one cannot be compared with another as the circumstances for each of them are vastly different. I for one, grew up seeing Michael Schumacher in F1, Michael Doohan in MotoGP and Tommi Maekinen in WRC. Those were my heroes then and their show of talent made me follow the sports, without missing a single event. Times changed and these people were replaced by Sebastian Vettel, Valentino Rossi and Sebastien Loeb. Now, Lewis Hamilton, Sebastien Ogier and Marc Marquez. For me, all have their share of talent and we should respect them as they are, no point in comparing using numbers.

Last edited by A350XWB : 7th November 2019 at 15:01.
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Old 7th November 2019, 15:06   #32
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

Both have one person to thank to for all this, the king maker Ross Brawn.

His role in Schumi's championships needs no explanation. If not for Ross Brawn, there wouldn't have been a Brawn team which is what present day Mercedes is. He was also instrumental in roping Lewis in, which Lewis credited after his 4th championship I think. It was also critical that his interpretation of rules (which was his forte) was key in both teams success in the respective eras.

Both were lucky to be in the better car and team at the right time, any doubts ask Fernando Alonso Team backing their star driver also had a role to play in both, Rosberg with Lewis in 2016 being the only exception.

One of the dumbest things that Schumi ever did was to make a comeback after he retired. I hope Lewis doesn't do such a thing.
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Old 7th November 2019, 18:21   #33
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

It is difficult to compare both simply because of difference in eras. One drove a car other is driving a computer . Hamilton is arguably the best in his generation but I doubt if he would be able to finish on podium if his car was stuck on 5th gear for almost half the race. While people would go by wins and fastest laps etc ,I would say the biggest contribution Schumacher gave to the sport is reviving the dead Ferrari.

If Schumi had switched to McLaren or even Williams in 96 his win stats would have been even more amazing. Schumi used to race on the weekend , and then fly to maranello to work with engineers to develop the car and 5 years of utter dominance was the end result of 3 years of toil. After Senna before Hamilton , the sport was kept alive by Schumacher.

Hamilton as a driver is no doubt one of the greatest in the sport , but this comparison is very futile as the most of their drivers are in totally different eras
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Old 8th November 2019, 01:36   #34
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

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Originally Posted by myavu View Post
Sorry I can't stop answering this.
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Originally Posted by thecarguy View Post
The 1994 ferrari was a dog of a car, 3 pole position and 1 win.
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Originally Posted by anb View Post
Even though he is a good driver, I have no respect for him.
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Originally Posted by Vysakh View Post
These sentences are more accurate when you replace Hamilton with Schumacher and vice versa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
Hamilton didn't ask for him to move over, it was team orders which Ferrari is king of.
In 1994 Ferrari wasn't the team to beat it was Renault and I said Ferrari because it was said that Ferrari had significant influence over FIA. Even in that season FIA tried everything they could to deny Schumacher of the championship and make Hill the champ as a tribute to Senna but they failed.

Now here are some facts about Saint Hamilton:

1. Season 2007: The Debut. Ron Dennis signed him to the McLaren driver development program at a young age, which would eventually make him the McLaren driver on his F1 debut, that meant he never had to race for weaker teams in his career, there was no struggle.
In the debut season he finished 2nd in the championship thanks to the spy-gate scandal, alongside team mate Alonso. Team McLaren were absolutely dedicated towards Hamilton and Hamilton's arrogance towards the former F1 World Champion was disrespectful and condemnable but team did nothing to discipline him.

2. Season 2008: The undeserving Champion.
His first world championship in 2008 was courtesy of Toyota's Glock who deliberately handed him the 5th place in the Brazilian GP, denying Massa from a truly well deserved world championship. No true F1 fan can forget that day. Massa was robbed of his championship, period. I would never ever respect Hamilton after that.

3. Season 2009: End of Spy-gate advantage, Hello Lie-gate.
After the McLaren infamous spy-gate scandal which made them a strong team in the season 2007 and 2008, the 2009 season showed their true worth and how ordinary the team and the drivers were. Hamilton finished 5th also adding the Lie-gate scandal to his resume in the process. Though his performance was better than teammate Kovalainen who got the stepmotherly treatment by the team McLaren, the Hamilton's family. Button won the championship in Brawn GP closely followed by the Vettel in Redbull, 3rd was Barrichello in Brawn GP and Vettel's team mate Webber was 4th.


4. The 2010 Season: The Test. This season again proved how ordinary Hamilton is as he finished 4th just 26 points ahead of team mate Button. Vettel became the youngest ever F1 champion in his RBR Renault, 2nd was Alonso in Ferrari only 4 points behind and Vettel's team mate Webber finished 3rd.

5. Season 2011: Who stole my Talent?
Hamilton was outclassed by his team mate Button who finished 2nd with 270 points and Hamilton finished 5th with 227 points, racing for the team that was his family, the McLaren, the team who overlooked the champion like Alonso for the love of Hamilton. Great achievement by Button. Hamilton's car had a magnetic attraction to Massa and Maldonado, also he felt the stewards had called him to see them 5 times in 6 races was because "maybe it's because I'm black, I don't know" said Hamilton.

Vettel finished 1st again with 392 points and his team mate Webber finished 3rd with 258 points.

6. Season 2012: The jealous Noob.
In the Belgian GP Button claimed pole while Hamilton only qualified 8th. But he had to blame it on someone else, so he blamed the decision to use a different rear wing to his teammate. Tweeting a picture of the telemetry, which revealed sensitive McLaren data, such as ride heights as well as braking and acceleration rates. Though he deleted the tweet, McLaren did not discipline Hamilton. Meanwhile a "disappointed" Button pointed out the rear wing should have helped Hamilton make up for the straight-line deficit through Spa's corners. Another instance to prove how much Hamilton was favoured in the team, and the stepmotherly treatment of his teammates.
Even with all the special love and support Hamilton was able to finish ahead of his team mate by just 2 points, Button was brilliant but finished 5th. Vettel had a phenomenal season again and became the champion in RBR Renault, Alonso finished 2nd for Ferrari and Vettel's team mate Webber could only manage 6th position.

7. Season 2013: The Betrayal.
Hamilton had enough of McLaren love and care and started looking for greener pastures. Enter Mercedes. He finished 4th while team mate Rosberg finished 6th just 18 points behind him. Vettel dominated the season becoming the champion yet again with 397 points, Alonso was second again with 242 points while Vettel's team mate Webber finished 3rd with 199 points. McLaren's Button and Perez finished 9th and 11th respectively.


8. Season 2014: Enter V6 Turbo-Hybrid and the maFIA The introduction of the V6 turbo hybrid made the Mercedes the most dominant team in F1 history and ever since 2014 their dominance has been absolute.
It was an easy Mercedes 1-2, and Hamilton won his second Championship, Rosberg finished second. While William's Bottas finished an impressive 4th and his teammate Massa was 7th.

9. Season 2015: Boring:
Yet another Mercedes dominated season. With Hamilton finishing 1st winning his boring 3rd Champion and teammate Rosberg finishing 2nd. William's Bottas was 5th again ahead of teammate Massa who finished 6th.

10. Season 2016: Rebel Rosberg.
All Hamilton fans must watch the Abu Dhabi GP and see how fair Hamilton is in reality. One of the few exciting races of the season even though it was the usual Mercedes 1-2.
Meanwhile Bottas finished 8th yet again ahead of teammate Massa who finished 11.

11. Season 2017: Vettel's brilliance.
This season could only be remembered for the incredible fight Vettel put forth against the dominant Mercedes. He was very very unlucky as well. An exciting season? Maybe but it was dominated by Mercedes and the new kid on the team, Bottas could only managed 3rd thanks to the team who wanted only Hamilton to win.
Hamilton was gifted the championship by the team with 363 points, Bottas followed ever order obediently and finished 3rd with 305 points and Vettel finishing 2nd with 317 points while his teammate Kimi finished 4th with 205 points.
This is the same Bottas who outclassed Massa for 3 straight years.

12. Season 2018: Bottas bottoms out.

Bottas was sacrificed yet again for Hamilton, though this time the punishment he took was more brutal.
Bottas just the 3rd driver in 21st century to go winless across a season in a championship winning car.

Team boss Toto Wolff admitted Bottas could be mentally damaged by a campaign he said turned "to shit".

Brawn said "the only slight flaw, if there can be one in a season like this, was the performance of Valtteri Bottas, who had a difficult season, plagued by bad luck. Valtteri had some opportunities to win, but either through misfortune, as in Baku, or due to the occasional, understandable, decision by the team to maximize the result for the benefit of both championships he didn't manage it. The result (was) that he seemed rather out of sorts by the end of the campaign."
I truly feel sorry for Bottas, such incredible talent and all wasted by the team politics. Shame on Mercedes and Hamilton.

To conclude, Hamilton won yet again in the ever so dominant Mercedes with Ferrari's Vettel and Kimi Raikkonen finishing 2nd and 3rd again, Bottas was used as a tool to let Hamilton win races yet again.

Season 2019 is nothing new.

Hamilton was in the right team at the right time and had the right connections. There is nothing special with Hamilton even Kubica would have won these 5 Championships with Mercedes if he was in place of Hamilton, it's the team that takes the credit in this case and not the talent.

Hamilton has been outclassed by his teammates many times, he has cheated, has been facilitated, favoured, pampered and what not. He will only win in the 'right' circumstances but never when the odds are not in his favor, like in the German GP this year. He isn't a legend, never will be.

Last edited by wrongturn : 8th November 2019 at 02:03.
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Old 8th November 2019, 02:36   #35
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

This would always end up as a pointless debate- comparing drivers of different era, rules and even points distribution structure for that matter.

In all likelihood, by the time Hamilton retires he would have at least equaled Schumacher's title number.He definitely got 1 more year for that, unless Bottas or Ferrari does something about it.

After 2021 rules change, we will have to see, if he stays at Merc or AGAAIN somehow end up in the dominant team.

I got more respect for Hamilton than Schumacher [by the way I got no particular liking towards both] because Hamilton was more respectful towards teammates even when some of them were equally as good, and potent enough to rob of his title.

To me,Hamilton is more of a 'Right Guy in Right Car at The Right Time' person[ thanks to Niki Lauda[RIP] and his Manager for bringing him to Merc in 2013], and that got him 2 of his titles [ 2014,2015].

He just had half a rival in Rosberg for 2 years. And any other able driver in that line up would also have got the title in the 2014 and 2015 with the Merc cars. [ Think of Ferraris of 2000 to 2003- resemblance with Schumacher's stats starts here]
In 2016,Rosberg did the same feat as Hamilton.

2017,2018 title, he got because he was the wholesome consistent best driver in the 2nd best car. { There was one pole he took in 2018[ I forgot which exactly' Singapore I guess] that itself puts him above everyone else of that year's line up.
[ Just think, would Vettel have got the title if he was there instead of Hamilton? I don't think so.For 2018 I am damn sure, Hamilton was the difference.]

Speaking of Schumacher, he always was the Numero Uno in the Ferrari team after the '95 title and after almost winning the title with Ferrari in his early years there.
Just like Hamilton the team and even tyres in this case were in his favor for most of his career, and he had no formidable teammates to speak of.
And that yield him 5 of his 7 titles.

Then then are his controversial final lap tactics too in help there.
But he did fight good in 97 and 98 with the not so best Ferrari against the superior Williams and Mclarens, which speaks high of his ability [for me at least], again much like Hamilton of 2017 and 2018 against the resurgent stronger Ferraris.

Also Schumacher along with Brawn was instrumental in the upturn of Ferrari team from 97 onwards.
Hamilton has no such credible technical input claims to speak of with any of the teams in career.
But he had quality rivals in Alonso and Jensen in his early years, and both did beat him in a fair straight fight.

So in a nutshell, If Hamilton manages to get 7 or more titles, then, MAY BE, MAY BE he can claim to be the GOAT.[ At least he would have numbers to speak for himself]
BUT THAT WOULD BE SO FAR FROM THE TRUTH.
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Old 8th November 2019, 02:49   #36
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

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All Hamilton fans must watch the Abu Dhabi GP and see how fair Hamilton is in reality..
This is the only unbaised word from you,that I found.
And I too feel it is true.
Hamilton's tactics in the final few laps of Abu Dabi GP against Rosberg was shameful.
NOBODY should do that kind of willful treachery.

But, I can cite atleast half dozen such shameful tactics and instances from Schumacher's part too.
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Old 8th November 2019, 06:41   #37
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

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Originally Posted by Flying Shadow View Post
T
Hamilton's tactics in the final few laps of Abu Dabi GP against Rosberg was shameful.
NOBODY should do that kind of willful treachery.

But, I can cite atleast half dozen such shameful tactics and instances from Schumacher's part too.
Thats probably what makes them world champions!
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Old 8th November 2019, 10:02   #38
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

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We can debate this all day long, but even as a diehard Michael Schumacher fan, I'll say that Hamilton is one of the greatest. Wouldn't put him on par with Schumacher, yet will say that he's a very close no.2. Closer than any other driver.

Michael won races in inferior cars. He joined a horrible team and was part of a group that rebuilt it from scratch. He dominated so hard that the rules of the game had to be changed! Michael was never beaten by his team-mate in his peak (Rosberg did later). I don't think Lewis did any of this.

On the other hand, Lewis always fought his team-mates on level ground (no no.1 or no.2 business). Lewis has also been more likeable, and controversy-free. Even his critics will admit that Hamilton never cheated the way that Schumacher did (starting with all those intentional crashes).

I feel I'm lucky to have seen both these greats, live on television .
GTO, you've summed it up perfectly.
Put anyone from Schumacher, Lauda, Senna or Clark in today's cars, they would run rings around Hamilton.
Yet, in the current batch of racers, I believe Hamilton's one of the best (won't say best, because Alonso).

I would go so far to say he's better than Schumacher. Plain numbers, without normalizing for era, car, team dynamics, etc., is just not a fair comparison.
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Old 8th November 2019, 10:19   #39
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

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GTO, you've summed it up perfectly.
Put anyone from Schumacher, Lauda, Senna or Clark in today's cars, they would run rings around Hamilton.

And you say this based on what?
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Old 8th November 2019, 10:44   #40
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

Wow the hate for Hamilton clouds judgement of people by coming up with ridiculous justifications trying to prove their supporting driver is the best in the world.

This thread is fun to watch people losing their minds and coming up with imaginative justifications.

Keep on rolling guys; let me grab my popcorn

Cheers
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Old 8th November 2019, 10:47   #41
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

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Hamilton was in the right team at the right time and had the right connections.
I don't want to continue anything more on this debate. I don't want to go to a level of a salty Ferrari fan. Apart from few salty fans the whole world is congratulating Hamilton for his great achievements. And I am one among them. Along with Michael, Hamilton is a great champion. I am a fan of both. The legendary status of Hamilton will be decided once he retires.

Now to the part quoted above. You have to be the best in he business to get a chance to be in the right team at the right time. This is what Ross Brawn and Niki Lauda did at end of 2012. Rest is history.

Now kudos to newly crowned 6 time world champion
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Old 8th November 2019, 15:38   #42
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

If you are fan of both and see objectively, you will see their success, flaws and the controversies. But if you just hate a person like some here, calling one of the greatest F1 racers a Noob, there is no point debating here with them.
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Old 8th November 2019, 21:48   #43
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

I am a big fan of Formula 1 and have been watching formula 1 since last 20 years. During early 2000's I was blinded by Michael Schumacher aura.
I always thought he was the most charismatic sports person of his time and may be of all time.
If greatness is measured by the numbers of pole positions and wins then yes, Hamilton can/will beat Schumacher
But If greatness is, how you took the sports along with you to greatness then nobody can ever beat Michael Schumacher.
All the current drivers including Hamilton would have been inspired by Schumacher at one point of their career.
Schumacher is instilled that steeliness in the sports, winning is everything and once the red light goes out everyone is your enemy. But the moment you step out he was thorough bread gentleman.
I love F1 so I love Hamilton, but I wish one day Michael Schumacher will rise from his sick bed, wear the Ferrari red and drive away the F1 car into the sunset
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Old 9th November 2019, 07:20   #44
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

It's funny that in F1 and in MotoGP, the champions (or dominators) have been praised and accused of being dirty. Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton have all played games at various points of time to either demoralize opponents, prove their alpha or simply to protect their advantage in the championship. Same has happened with Doohan, Rossi and Marquez. It's a futile exercise of comparing stats and labelling someone as GOAT since every year brings different challenges, rules change, the level of racing and engineering changes, tyre construction and suppliers change and so on.
As racing fans, it would be a good idea to enjoy every such dominant champion and their craft. I see pages of venom on motorsport sites where fans clash and demean other camps. Utter waste of time and totally disgusting.
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Old 11th November 2019, 04:36   #45
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Default Re: How Lewis Hamilton compares to Michael Schumacher

There are 2 aspects to this. What is the comparison here about?

If we are asking , is Hamilton as good a driver as Michael was. Then probably , the answer will be yes, grudgingly though for a Michael fan like me.

If we are asking , is Hamilton as good a leader as Michael is, then the answer is No, HELL NO.

Michael was a leader - be it rallying the team around , inspiring them , pulling off some unbelievable drives awing the team , winning for the team. Above all , Michael knew all too well , he and the team are one and not different entities. That is why , for example at Suzuka in 2006, when he saw the 8th title go up in fumes , he was able to look every single mechanic right in the eye and console them. Instead of being the dejected one , he went there rallying his troops. We never saw Michael sulking against his team, we never saw Michael go and release the telemetry data on twitter ( I don't think anyone here remembers Spa 2012). This is where , I think Lewis is not on the same league as Michael.

7 WDC's sounded a lot and i never imagined I will see someone eclipse that. I feel Lewis will equal that in 2020 and depending on how Merc adapt to the new rules , he might add even more.

So , for me , as a driver Lewis perhaps is very close , but as a overall champion material , Michael was , is and will always be ahead.
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