Ferrari start criminal proceedings against Nigel Stepney

merve_extreme · 27th July 2007, 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmat

Hold on, lets not jump to conclusions

Steve Coughlan had the plans given to him by Nigel Stepney. The evidence is limited as:

1: No proof exists that Mclaren were ever in possession of these plans and put it to their use. Only an individual possessed them

Your information is incomplete.Coughan has admitted in his sworn affidavit to the British High Court that he had show the material to at least 2 other high ranking Mclaren officials.Mclaren knew Coughan had the info.

This has been proved and Mclaren have been found guilty by the WMSC of having a rivals info.THEY HAD THE INFO and that is beyond doubt.
They were not punished only because Ferrari could not prove that any info was used in the cars development.But even if you know someone's fuel consumption ,that is enough to benefit your team policy and how can someone prove that the race strategy was derived using the their stolen info.

turbo_v12 · 27th July 2007, 17:38

Well...The FIA must have carried out a lot of investigations to confirm that McLaren did not use information in possession of Coughlan. Unless of course, people here know more than the FIA...

!

Funny no one complained when the FIA did make a lot of changes to the rules to suit Ferrari. Ferrari's tyre ducts to suit aerodynamics have been questioned by other teams what is the outcome? There are many other instances too but it ain't necessary to start all over again.

Bootmline, McLaren are free now...Whether u FERRARI FANS like it or not!

Rtech · 27th July 2007, 17:45

Ajit is right in his post. But, in F1, things are never as they seem to us on the outside. This line from James Allen best describes it: Clearly someone up there wants Lewis in the show.

merve_extreme · 27th July 2007, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbo_v12

Well...The FIA must have carried out a lot of investigations to confirm that McLaren did not use information in possession of Coughlan. Unless of course, people here know more than the FIA
Funny no one complained when the FIA did make a lot of changes to the rules to suit Ferrari. Ferrari's tyre ducts to suit aerodynamics have been questioned by other teams what is the outcome? There are many other instances too but it ain't necessary to start all over again.

Bootmline, McLaren are free now...Whether u FERRARI FANS like it or not!

You have your opinion and you can keep by it.You have no need to ridicule any Ferrari fans.And when you talk about something at least make sure it is true to some extent.The Ferrari ducts are perfectly legal and no F1 team has taken any objection to it.Even Renault and Toyota use them.If you have a contrary info please provide a link.

And the Bottom line is Mclaren were found guilty but not punished.One more thing Mclaren are not free and if evidence is found they will be excluded from 2007 and 2008 F1 WC.You know why Mclaren were let off....let me give you a clue F1 just lost a superstar driver,Mclaren may win this year and it makes for exiting show,Lewis is being shown as the next superstar.You think Bernie and his band will let go off this opportunity.

madhav · 27th July 2007, 23:41

Having information is one thing and having used that information to have gained an unfair advantage is another.

Yes, the WMSC found McLaren had the document through Mike. But Mike in his affidavit claimed that all the persons in McLaren to whom he had mentioned about the document distanced themselves and asked him to destroy it. That also means McLaren did not want to use that information. So where did McLaren gain an advantage over Ferrari by having those documents? Some one needs to prove that they have managed to incorporate some design from that document on the McLarens!!! Unless that happens there is noway anyone can punish McLaren.

Ferrari had one of their person on that WMSC who backed out inorder to avoid a clash of interest. If there was a possibility of finding a fault, I'm sure Ferrari, through him would have moved heaven and earth to establish something that clearly points the misuse of the document. That did not happen either!!!
F1 News - Grandprix.com

Laxminarayan · 28th July 2007, 00:17

Everything said and done, perhaps one should understand this is a sport and there are some rules and regulations to govern by etc.. For the god sake atleast follow ethics.. ethics of sport!
It might be true that mclaren might have not used the data for any purpose, or let's agree that it is true, but when they knew it early and asked to to destroy the documents, why couldn't they have initiated this suspension then?? Anyways, the ugly battle continues with now ferrari expressing their unhappiness, this will be one of the ugly/bad remark that will get added to one of the best Brands in the Automotive Industry.
Hope this doesn't affect the sport. It's hard to imagine a race without ferrari and mclaren. Wish all ends well

merve_extreme · 28th July 2007, 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhav

Having information is one thing and having used that information to have gained an unfair advantage is another.

Did they have the info,Yes.Did they bother telling FIA or Ferrari that your stolen data is with our employee.NO.Ron Dennis claims to be torchbearer or truth and ethical practices.So what happened??

Quote:

Some one needs to prove that they have managed to incorporate some design from that document on the McLarens!!! Unless that happens there is noway anyone can punish McLaren.

Really!Using the info to gain any advantage technical or strategical is punishable.But it is not proved so we will leave it out.
Having a competitors info is a violation of F1's(Motor sports) ethical regulations,Mclaren have been found guilty of particularly this offense.

Quote:

Ferrari had one of their person on that WMSC who backed out inorder to avoid a clash of interest. If there was a possibility of finding a fault, I'm sure Ferrari, through him would have moved heaven and earth to establish something that clearly points the misuse of the document. That did not happen either!!!

So why relese this statement
Formula 1 : News FERRARI - F1-Live.com

Can anyone Explain how Mclaren came to know about Ferrari's floor design?,from camera footage.........
This is how this info is used.Mclaren are not stupid to put an identical part on the car as found on the Ferrari.

merve_extreme · 28th July 2007, 09:32

Now it has emerged that all Mclaren top people incluging Ron knew about the Ferrari info since MARCH 2007,before the F1 calender began.What was Ron saying about truth......

autosport.com - F1 News: Todt accuses McLaren of hypocrisy

PS:I may be going a little overboard,i'm sorry for that.

turbo_v12 · 28th July 2007, 10:12

Hey Merve, I don't mean to attack but instead of overboard you are taking this to extreme measures.

U can't expect anyone (except maybe Gandhi or Harishchandra) to walk right up to the FIA and say our employee has possession of Ferrari's information. He tried his best by not using it. They say, don't they, that a single person can be handy in spoiling and ruining the name of an entire organization. Now I am so seriously frustrated by this that I am ready to throw a shot in the dark and say that all this was a plan of Todt and he involved Coughlan and Stepney and since nothing came out of it so far, he's resorted to mudslinging.

I rest my case here, everyone can go on with what they want to say. It's Ferrari's fault Stepney defected, not McLaren's!

merve_extreme · 28th July 2007, 11:04

That's pure speculation my friend.Its not Ferrari's fault that Stepney defected its his own doing.

There is nothing extreme about what i'm saying since i'm not making any theories but only stating what is comming up on various F1 sites that i visit throughout the day.

You know that tragedy of things.Ferrari and Mclaren signed an agreement in June 07, where they would co-operate with each other and not indulge in any wrong behaviour and then this happen,what do you expect.

autosport.com - F1 News: Todt accuses McLaren of hypocrisy

ps:Autosport is one of the most reliable F1 or motorsport news sites

Laxminarayan · 28th July 2007, 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by merve_extreme

You know that tragedy of things.Ferrari and Mclaren signed an agreement in June 07, s

May be they saw this coming (that Mclaren were aware of this kind of data since march 2007) and they saw something coming up.. So they got into an agreement in June 07. You call it a speculation, you call it a fact, whatever, But the ugly battle continues..

RacingForIndia · 30th July 2007, 09:30

Some points (which are being universally debated)
1. Do they not photocopy machines at McLaren. If the team were involved why on earth would they copy the stuff at a local copy store than their own Headquarters?
2. Why is it always that Ferrari employees are the ones who sell off the data. I find it hard to believe that a employee can just walk out with a 700+ page book and no one knows about it.
3. The fact that Nigel & Mike both approached Honda for potential future employment states that they were looking for a change and were possibly planning to use this data for their new team.
4. The McLaren was a quick car when it was launched, not as quick as the Ferrari but quick enough to win races on its own account, given the right conditions. Had they used the so called data from Ferrari they would have benefitted from it and it would have shown on their on track performances. But the gap (about 0.3 sec per lap) has remained constant between the two teams, hence the benefit is clearly not there.
5. Any F1 car is designed a year in advance. When and if McLaren got the data, it would have been very difficult to incorporate it into its own car, because the cars are always fundamentally different. McLaren invited the FIA to scrutinize their cars and this is proof that they are clean.
6. I don’t think highly of the FIA, least of all Mad Max, but for once there seems to be sanity in their decision.

Todt is a bad looser. He cannot come to terms that they are going to loose a third straight championship, hence he is making all the noises about things which he should keep mum on. Example, during the Ozzy GP McLaren pointed out that Ferrari were cheating by having movable floors, and the FIA banned those. Ferrari did loose some ground due to it, but ever since they have been grumpy about the whole episode.

Do note that both Nigel and Mike were colleagues during the Benneton days and had worked on the controversial traction control system on the Benneton in 93/94. They know how to bend the rules and get away with it, but this time they got caught red handed.

My two cents.

jraj · 2nd August 2007, 11:09

ok guys..
we have new twist now..
Ron has admitted that Mclaren received info from Nigel Stepney that Ferrari were running "Illegal"devices in Australian GP.....
He calls it as "whistle blowing" against irregularity and not spy case....

The entire details available in itv.com/f1 - McLaren hits back at Ferrari

merve_extreme · 2nd August 2007, 16:41

Was it illegal in the First place,the rules during the Australian GP were not in place to declare it illegal,only after that Ron Liar complained were the rules changed and the design was banned from Malaysia.The car passed FIA scrutiny in Australia.Given Ron's accusations Renault's all wins in 2005 were illegal.Why doesn't Ron talk about that?

Ron Liar is obviously getting his teeth rattled,and he talks of not knowing of Stepney's scandal till June 07.Why did Stepney give information to Mclaren only,why not Renault or Honda or Toyota?
Now what is your answer Mr Ron ???

sujaylahiri · 3rd August 2007, 10:53

Guys check out Ron Dennis' official statement in which he has accused Ferrari of winning with an illegal car in the Australian Grand Prix 2007.
The Official Formula 1 Website

What do you fellas say?

27th July 2007, 17:38	#32
turbo_v12 BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Thane Posts: 457 Thanked: Once View My Garage	Well...The FIA must have carried out a lot of investigations to confirm that McLaren did not use information in possession of Coughlan. Unless of course, people here know more than the FIA... ! Funny no one complained when the FIA did make a lot of changes to the rules to suit Ferrari. Ferrari's tyre ducts to suit aerodynamics have been questioned by other teams what is the outcome? There are many other instances too but it ain't necessary to start all over again. Bootmline, McLaren are free now...Whether u FERRARI FANS like it or not!
	() Thanks

27th July 2007, 17:45	#33
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 359 Times View My Garage	Ajit is right in his post. But, in F1, things are never as they seem to us on the outside. This line from James Allen best describes it: Clearly someone up there wants Lewis in the show.
	() Thanks

27th July 2007, 23:41	#35
madhav BHPian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 285 Thanked: 73 Times	Having information is one thing and having used that information to have gained an unfair advantage is another. Yes, the WMSC found McLaren had the document through Mike. But Mike in his affidavit claimed that all the persons in McLaren to whom he had mentioned about the document distanced themselves and asked him to destroy it. That also means McLaren did not want to use that information. So where did McLaren gain an advantage over Ferrari by having those documents? Some one needs to prove that they have managed to incorporate some design from that document on the McLarens!!! Unless that happens there is noway anyone can punish McLaren. Ferrari had one of their person on that WMSC who backed out inorder to avoid a clash of interest. If there was a possibility of finding a fault, I'm sure Ferrari, through him would have moved heaven and earth to establish something that clearly points the misuse of the document. That did not happen either!!! F1 News - Grandprix.com
	() Thanks

28th July 2007, 00:17	#36
Laxminarayan BHPian Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Bangalore Posts: 170 Thanked: 0 Times	Everything said and done, perhaps one should understand this is a sport and there are some rules and regulations to govern by etc.. For the god sake atleast follow ethics.. ethics of sport! It might be true that mclaren might have not used the data for any purpose, or let's agree that it is true, but when they knew it early and asked to to destroy the documents, why couldn't they have initiated this suspension then?? Anyways, the ugly battle continues with now ferrari expressing their unhappiness, this will be one of the ugly/bad remark that will get added to one of the best Brands in the Automotive Industry. Hope this doesn't affect the sport. It's hard to imagine a race without ferrari and mclaren. Wish all ends well
	() Thanks

28th July 2007, 09:32	#38
merve_extreme Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,359 Thanked: 18 Times View My Garage	Now it has emerged that all Mclaren top people incluging Ron knew about the Ferrari info since MARCH 2007,before the F1 calender began.What was Ron saying about truth...... autosport.com - F1 News: Todt accuses McLaren of hypocrisy PS:I may be going a little overboard,i'm sorry for that. Last edited by merve_extreme : 28th July 2007 at 09:34.
	() Thanks

28th July 2007, 10:12	#39
turbo_v12 BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Thane Posts: 457 Thanked: Once View My Garage	Hey Merve, I don't mean to attack but instead of overboard you are taking this to extreme measures. U can't expect anyone (except maybe Gandhi or Harishchandra) to walk right up to the FIA and say our employee has possession of Ferrari's information. He tried his best by not using it. They say, don't they, that a single person can be handy in spoiling and ruining the name of an entire organization. Now I am so seriously frustrated by this that I am ready to throw a shot in the dark and say that all this was a plan of Todt and he involved Coughlan and Stepney and since nothing came out of it so far, he's resorted to mudslinging. I rest my case here, everyone can go on with what they want to say. It's Ferrari's fault Stepney defected, not McLaren's!
	() Thanks

28th July 2007, 11:04	#40
merve_extreme Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,359 Thanked: 18 Times View My Garage	That's pure speculation my friend.Its not Ferrari's fault that Stepney defected its his own doing. There is nothing extreme about what i'm saying since i'm not making any theories but only stating what is comming up on various F1 sites that i visit throughout the day. You know that tragedy of things.Ferrari and Mclaren signed an agreement in June 07, where they would co-operate with each other and not indulge in any wrong behaviour and then this happen,what do you expect. autosport.com - F1 News: Todt accuses McLaren of hypocrisy ps:Autosport is one of the most reliable F1 or motorsport news sites
	() Thanks

30th July 2007, 09:30	#42
RacingForIndia BHPian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Pune Posts: 482 Thanked: 36 Times View My Garage	Some points (which are being universally debated) 1. Do they not photocopy machines at McLaren. If the team were involved why on earth would they copy the stuff at a local copy store than their own Headquarters? 2. Why is it always that Ferrari employees are the ones who sell off the data. I find it hard to believe that a employee can just walk out with a 700+ page book and no one knows about it. 3. The fact that Nigel & Mike both approached Honda for potential future employment states that they were looking for a change and were possibly planning to use this data for their new team. 4. The McLaren was a quick car when it was launched, not as quick as the Ferrari but quick enough to win races on its own account, given the right conditions. Had they used the so called data from Ferrari they would have benefitted from it and it would have shown on their on track performances. But the gap (about 0.3 sec per lap) has remained constant between the two teams, hence the benefit is clearly not there. 5. Any F1 car is designed a year in advance. When and if McLaren got the data, it would have been very difficult to incorporate it into its own car, because the cars are always fundamentally different. McLaren invited the FIA to scrutinize their cars and this is proof that they are clean. 6. I don’t think highly of the FIA, least of all Mad Max, but for once there seems to be sanity in their decision. Todt is a bad looser. He cannot come to terms that they are going to loose a third straight championship, hence he is making all the noises about things which he should keep mum on. Example, during the Ozzy GP McLaren pointed out that Ferrari were cheating by having movable floors, and the FIA banned those. Ferrari did loose some ground due to it, but ever since they have been grumpy about the whole episode. Do note that both Nigel and Mike were colleagues during the Benneton days and had worked on the controversial traction control system on the Benneton in 93/94. They know how to bend the rules and get away with it, but this time they got caught red handed. My two cents. Last edited by RacingForIndia : 30th July 2007 at 09:33. Reason: Some statements were in the wrong context.
	() Thanks

2nd August 2007, 11:09	#43
jraj BHPian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Michigan,USA Posts: 487 Thanked: 173 Times View My Garage	New twist to the saga ok guys.. we have new twist now.. Ron has admitted that Mclaren received info from Nigel Stepney that Ferrari were running "Illegal"devices in Australian GP..... He calls it as "whistle blowing" against irregularity and not spy case.... The entire details available in itv.com/f1 - McLaren hits back at Ferrari
	() Thanks

2nd August 2007, 16:41	#44
merve_extreme Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,359 Thanked: 18 Times View My Garage	Was it illegal in the First place,the rules during the Australian GP were not in place to declare it illegal,only after that Ron Liar complained were the rules changed and the design was banned from Malaysia.The car passed FIA scrutiny in Australia.Given Ron's accusations Renault's all wins in 2005 were illegal.Why doesn't Ron talk about that? Ron Liar is obviously getting his teeth rattled,and he talks of not knowing of Stepney's scandal till June 07.Why did Stepney give information to Mclaren only,why not Renault or Honda or Toyota? Now what is your answer Mr Ron ??? Last edited by merve_extreme : 2nd August 2007 at 16:46.
	() Thanks

3rd August 2007, 10:53	#45
sujaylahiri BHPian Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North America Posts: 960 Thanked: 6 Times View My Garage	Guys check out Ron Dennis' official statement in which he has accused Ferrari of winning with an illegal car in the Australian Grand Prix 2007. The Official Formula 1 Website What do you fellas say?
	() Thanks