[navin]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Tifosi are fed up with nobody winning.

Red bull fans are fed up with only max winning.

Merc fans are fed up with the whining.

Originally Posted by Cyborg

Having said the above, I still feel Max was not a deserving champion last year, it was gifted to him, he surely didn’t deserve the final victory which made him champion.

Maybe Abu Dhabi was gifted to him but what about the other races?

F1 is not a 2 horse race. There are 20 drivers out there and the number of errors in the 2021 season was unreasonable (across all the drivers).

Originally Posted by Cyborg

The way the race unfolded, Lewis was cruising to a victory and becoming a 8 times world champion

Would Lewis have been "cruising to a victory" had the stewards / FIA not made all the blunders they did during the season?

Masi was removed not solely because of one decision, but because under his leadership, the FIA stewards made several calls where the rule book had been misinterpreted.

Originally Posted by shabih

and just 10 meters before the finish line, someone comes and puts a stick against this world's best sprinters foot,

The difference is that there were 22 other races and someone came to put a stick in front of several other participants during all these other races.

Lewis is not the "world's best" by any yardstick. He is a good driver and has had a fantastic car (for 6 of his 7 championship seasons). I think if Alonso had as competent a car (as Lewis did), Lewis wouldn't have won as many championships as he did.

I remember one race where Lewis spent 10+ laps trying to pass Alonso even though Alonso's car was not nearly as competitive as Lewis's. Alonso kept Lewis at bay to ensure his teammate got the win. If Lewis is THAT good, he should have passed Alonso in 2 laps.

People are quick to pass judgement on Schumacher or Hamilton as the "world's best" without taking into account that both were aided by brilliant cars/teams for many of their championship seasons. In my view, neither of them holds a candle to Fangio, who won close to 50% of his races. He started on the pole 92% of the time! He started racing in F1 at an age when most of these young guns are thinking of retiring. He won the championship with 4 different teams. I want to see what Lewis or Max do at age 46.

Originally Posted by AutoConsultant

See, that analogy would make sense if the entire season had only 1 race - Abu Dhabi.

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Championships are won over a season - Max had great luck with the SC in Abu Dhabi but terrible luck in other places.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by Joeboy

I suspect the FIA did it deliberately to give a chance for Max to win as they think that having a new world champion would do a world of good for the sport. If Lewis had pitted for fresher tyres then Max might have stayed on used tyres and then the FIA would have finished the race behind the safety car for Max to win.

What an idea sirji!

[shabih]

Originally Posted by navin

The difference is that there were 22 other races and someone came to put a stick in front of several other participants during all these other races.

Lewis is not the "world's best" by any yardstick. He is a good driver and has had a fantastic car (for 6 of his 7 championship seasons). I think if Alonso had as competent a car (as Lewis did), Lewis wouldn't have won as many championships as he did.

I remember one race where Lewis spent 10+ laps trying to pass Alonso even though Alonso's car was not nearly as competitive as Lewis's. Alonso kept Lewis at bay to ensure his teammate got the win. If Lewis is THAT good, he should have passed Alonso in 2 laps.

You're absolutely right! Lewis is not the greatest and I'd say again, I am not a Lewis fan either. I was rooting for Max the whole season, purely because I was bored of Lewis winning every race and every championship without any real challenge. A similar emotion as Schumacher leading from the front and winning every race and championship during the latter part of his career.

Max's win in 2021 is not about who is better - Lewis or Max. They battled throughout the season and arrived in Abu Dhabi with exact same points (like Netflix directed this whole thing to the decimal digits ). During the race also Lewis was leading and if Mick's accident didn't happen, he would have won. FIA screwed things up and because of their monkey business a certain race outcome was 'changed' to the exact opposite. Believe me, I was screaming with joy to see Max win that day. My wife ran to the living room to see what was the commotion!! But when emotions subsided, I looked at it a bit more rationally and could see that rules were not followed or bent by FIA for a particular outcome. And this is not the same as the errors and oversights previously done during the season, this one felt deliberate. This brought in much-needed excitement in the sport as well, no denying that. Personally, I am still happy for Max's win in 2021 and 2022 but the joy about the previous year is a bit mixed for me.

And I respect everyone else's emotions here. There is no factual opposition here, there cant be!

[Cyborg]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Championships are won over a season - Max had great luck with the SC in Abu Dhabi but terrible luck in other places. Every race counts equally so you can't forget the year and only look at once race

Originally Posted by Joeboy

I suspect the FIA did it deliberately to give a chance for Max to win as they think that having a new world champion would do a world of good for the sport. If Lewis had pitted for fresher tyres then Max might have stayed on used tyres and then the FIA would have finished the race behind the safety car for Max to win.

Originally Posted by navin

Maybe Abu Dhabi was gifted to him but what about the other races?

F1 is not a 2 horse race. There are 20 drivers out there and the number of errors in the 2021 season was unreasonable (across all the drivers)

Guys, every race counts, both drivers drove well, one made more mistakes than the other etc etc. Everything said and done, I repeat the main point here why ONLY the last race mattered in this specific case.

Both drivers started the last race equal on points, equal on points clearly indicates it really doesn’t matter if one of them drove his car on the moon during the season

It was a winner takes all situation in this specific case (the year doesn’t count because of the mathematics here) when Michael Masi made his decision to do something for which he has been sacked due to the FIA having to do the right thing which should have been rectified in Abu Dhabi itself.

Now there was speculation that Jonathan Wheatley (Sporting Director at Reb Bull) who was speaking with Michael Masi during the course of the safety car are friends and travel to the circuit together. Make what you will of that but it was not the FIA to blame for the rules breach but one man (Michael Masi). The FIA may only be blamed for not acting at the right time (in Abu Dhabi) to rectify a wrong instead of waiting for months to sack the man and finally show acceptance of his error to the world.

Let’s see the decision of the FIA for the cost cap breach by Red Bull, minor breach, minor, only anything upto 7.5 million dollars This thing may well have a sting in the tail to come.

Cheers

[navin]

Originally Posted by Cyborg

Both drivers started the last race equal on points

Had the FIA/Stewards not bungled so much in earlier races would both drivers have started the race on equal points?

Maybe the championship would have been settled before the last race. Who knows?

Originally Posted by shabih

They battled throughout the season and arrived in Abu Dhabi with exact same points (like Netflix directed this whole thing to the decimal digits ).

Maybe Liberty Media was taking a page from Netflix's manual.

Perhaps due to poor stewardship, both drivers found themselves in this predicament (starting the last race on equal points). If the "umpiring" would have been "fairer", maybe Lewis would have had more points going into Abu Dhabi, or maybe Max. I don't know. It's all hypothetical.

FYI, I don't care if Lewis wins or Max wins or Gasly, Magnussen or Albon. What matters to me is to see good, fair, aggressive wheel-to-wheel racing. The Perez-Leclerc, Hamilton-Ocon battles and Alonso catching Vettel were more fun than watching Max race to a 27-second win at Suzuka.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by navin

Had the FIA/Stewards not bungled so much in earlier races would both drivers have started the race on equal points?

Curious to understand since you brought it up twice. Which other race results last year were impacted/bungled up due to FIA/stewards?

[venkyhere]

The 2022 Japanese GP thread has transformed into 2021 Abudhabi GP thread. Honestly, tired of it. But since in a rhetorical manner, I am talking about it anyway, my 2 cents on the 2021 season :

The 2021 W12E Mercedes was the vastly superior car - the only advantage the 2021 RB16B RedBull had, was traction out of slow corners, and high-downforce making it quicker in the medium to fast corners. When I say quicker, it was marginally quicker. Everywhere else (fast sweepers, really fast corners, straights) the RB16B couldn't come close to the W12E. That car was a monster.

If we are to call a spade a spade,

- If all rules were followed only in the final Abudhabi GP, Hamilton was the deserved winner, there is no doubt about it. It was simply the faster car (despite Perez' defence to shrink the gap, Hamilton easily pulled away, without even driving at 100%. He drove flawlessly, without a single mistake).

- W.r.t everything that happened before Abudhabi, it was Max's superior risk taking ability and superior confidence in the car, that enabled him go blow-for-blow against an equally talented but more experienced Hamilton. On that avenue, for the first time in years and years, Hamilton properly feared the ability of another driver. He had finally met his match, a driver who had nothing to lose, no reputation to protect, no 'media image' to be carefully crafted. Verstappen simply did a better job with an inferior car, to arrive at the final race, on equal points. This fact is beyond debate, it is the truth. Had Verstappen shown some sort of maturity in knowing that sometimes discretion is the better part of valour, and not wrecked the points he could have had even if he didn't win a particular race, AbuDhabi 2021 wouldn't have mattered. It's his lack of title-fight-experience that brought him to that final race on equal points.

In light of the two factors above, the mistake Micheal Masi made, can be viewed in two different colours :
1. Corruption
2. Providence

I would like to think it's 2, and I am equally aware that there are people who think it's 1. I can live with others having a different viewpoint as mine. So should everyone else. This topic has been beaten to death, it's time we moved on from regurgitating and eating again, the same thing, forever.

[navin]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Curious to understand since you brought it up twice. Which other race results from last year were impacted/bungled up due to FIA/stewards?

Google is your friend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh0HvaB5ccQ

https://www.hotcars.com/lessons-from...22-and-beyond/

If races were not directly impacted, it was sometimes the case of incorrect penalties being given. Most notably was the penalty Hamilton got when Max and he collided at Silverstone.

Originally Posted by venkyhere

The 2022 Japanese GP thread has transformed into 2021 Abudhabi GP thread.

Agreed. With the 2022 championship decided, there wasn't much left to debate.

[FURY_44]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

The 2021 W12E Mercedes was the vastly superior car - the only advantage the 2021 RB16B RedBull had, was traction out of slow corners, and high-downforce making it quicker in the medium to fast corners. When I say quicker, it was marginally quicker. Everywhere else (fast sweepers, really fast corners, straights) the RB16B couldn't come close to the W12E. That car was a monster.

If we are to call a spade a spade.

I don't know about your experience with the technical regulations of F1 sir, but you cannot go ahead and call the W12 a "superior car" or a "monster", that was the W11.

There were aero rule changes just before the 2021 season that impacted "low rake" cars the most, Merc was one among them. One of the reasons given for these changes was that the Pirelli tyres were not able to handle the amount of downforce these cars were generating. And with only one season to go for a complete change in rules, Pirelli was not really happy to develop new tyres.

With these set of aero rule changes in 2021, it was clear during testing that one team which runs the highest of highest rakes amongst the field benefitted the most, in comes "Red Bull".

Throughout the season the W12 lacked quali and race pace, sometimes the strategies with Lewis worked due to his race craft, but sometimes it didn't due to Red Bull's superior race pace (Ex: French Grand Prix), the tracks which favored the Mercs the most were suddenly favoring Red Bulls.

Red Bull gained time last season, while the W12 lost out, it was only due to the superior engine it was quicker at some circuits. And the championship turned upside down when Merc decided to take penalties and run the engines at dangerously high levels during the last 4 races and we all know who won all those races.

Have a read: https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-...rake-mercedes/

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by navin

Google is your friend

I had seen that when I posted my reply. It's the first video that comes up when one searches for 'steward errors in F1 2021 season'

F1 is ever evolving; and we both know that rules get updated every year and even in-between the year. Most of the 'faults' in that video and the link (they more or less repeat) are in line with the rules that were present (however inefficient/incomplete rules they were back then). Btw the Belgian race was a farce - agree completely. But they had a rule (however wrong) and they applied it. I believe they rectified it for this year.

Doesn't give credence to the point you were making earlier that the stewards did a lot of blunder last year. Abu Dhabi was one for sure. Rest were rules that weren't thought out clearly and certain teams benefitted by it. But calling them blunders is a bit too much. Abu Dhabi was one. I see from your response that we don't have other blunders to account for.

Technical directors of F1 teams are 'motivated' to (mis)read the rules to see how they can benefit from workarounds. Adrian Newey's book talks about his exploits across his career many of which would be sneaky/illegal (similar to what Red Bull & Ferrari did at the start of the season with regards to the porposing issue). But that's the norm.

Team principals on the other hand are 'motivated' to cry out foul at other teams to gain any advantage they can get. Both Horner & Toto are perfect examples of how sneaky they can get on that. Actually they are the true cause of the blunder in Abu Dhabi (Horner got the upper hand over Toto there).

I agree with you & @venkyhere - no more posts on F1 2021 from me here.

2022 is done too. Hopefully we'll see a stronger Lewis in 2023 with a proper means to win his 8th championship with a good enough car that compliments his capabilities.

[attinder]

Originally Posted by FURY_44

Throughout the season the W12 lacked quali and race pace, sometimes the strategies with Lewis worked due to his race craft, but sometimes it didn't due to Red Bull's superior race pace (Ex: French Grand Prix), the tracks which favored the Mercs the most were suddenly favoring Red Bulls.

Red Bull gained time last season, while the W12 lost out, it was only due to the superior engine it was quicker at some circuits. And the championship turned upside down when Merc decided to take penalties and run the engines at dangerously high levels during the last 4 races and we all know who won all those races

W12 was the better car since Silverstone and Lewis had massive advantage for the last 4 races. He overtook the entire field plus 5 to win in Brazil.

Same Lewis struggled to overtake one car in the last race.

[FURY_44]

Originally Posted by attinder

W12 was the better car since Silverstone and Lewis had massive advantage for the last 4 races. He overtook the entire field plus 5 to win in Brazil.

Same Lewis struggled to overtake one car in the last race.

Yes you are right, Merc brought that "one" upgrade for Silverstone which worked for them for the rest of the season. Whereas Red Bull were upgrading their car regularly last season, which the world has now seen how.

Haha, it's always about "Lewis". Not sure when most of the audience understand that the "car" is an important factor to win a championship.

When was the last time a driver won a championship with other than in a Merc, Reb Bull or a Ferrari after '06?. We know how Jenson won that championship in '09.

[iamahunter]

Find it funny how the discussion has gone back to the 2021 season's final race's final lap.

Throughout the 2021 season, FIA botched up multiple times and most favoured Mercedes.
For instance, Silverstone was not a racing incident, and Hamilton should have gotten a more severe penalty than just 5 seconds. Lewis's fans probably wouldn't agree with the above.

We all know how Leclerc got a 5-sec penalty in the 2022 Japanese GP in the final lap. Hamilton did the same in the initial laps in the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP; he did not give the place, nor did he take a penalty. Just going by the rules, Lewis should have got a 5-sec penalty. But the FIA botched up again and played in favour of Hamilton.

Now assume that all rules were followed and the race ended behind the safety car. Where does that put Max? 5 sec ahead of Lewis, am I right?

Max was the 2021 F1 champion, he drove exceptionally well the entire season. Accept the fact and move on.

In 2022, going by the initial few races, I seriously believed it would be a fight till the end between Leclerc and Max for 1st and Checo and Sainz for 3rd and 4th place. Nevertheless, Ferrari had to have their foot in the mouth and screw up the race so many times!

I hope Leclerc at least wins the 2nd place. Even tho I am a Max fan now, everyone is a Ferrari fan!

[navin]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

I had seen that when I posted my reply. It's the first video that comes up when one searches for 'steward errors in F1 2021 season'

I agree with you & @venkyhere - no more posts on F1 2021 from me here.

Hopefully, we'll see a stronger Lewis in 2023

Bingo!



I'd be happy to see stronger McLaren, Alpine or Aston Martin cars too. Like I said before, I have no dog in this fight. I just want to see a good fight. In some perverse way, I'd be happy to see a fight that does not include Ferrari, Red Bull or Mercedes. Ocon winning in Hungary in 2021 (with Alonso playing wingman) was refreshing.

[attinder]

Originally Posted by FURY_44

Yes you are right, Merc brought that "one" upgrade for Silverstone which worked for them for the rest of the season. Whereas Red Bull were upgrading their car regularly last season, which the world has now seen how.

If you mean the budget cap breach then the situation is quite a bit complicated than 'RB' cheated.

The whole fiasco revolves around Adrian Newey who accordingly to RB is one of three employee who's salary is exempted from budget cap.
But FIA has a different interpretation as the salary is paid to Adrian's registered company in which Adrian is the only employee.