Hamilton could be stripped of the title

Zensible · 9th September 2007, 02:02

Looks like the latest revelation is Alonso and de la Rossa being involved.

If the FIA cannot find any conclusive evidence of Hamilton's involvement, they should let him keep his points and the way it's going, let him win the Championship.

Even though I'd love to see Raikkonen win the Championship, it's only fair for the best man in the better car to win, and that, at this time, is unquestionably Hamilton (as long as he's not involved in the scandal).

PS: During the 2005 and 2006 seasons, I put on my Kimi/McLaren hat ( Kimi Raikkonen signed official 2005 Kimi Raikkonen McLaren Cap [KR06C2] : Formula World Shop, The Formula 1 on-line store - Formula One items like Autographs, Memorabilia, F1 Team & Grand Prix Gear, Diecast, Photographs, ... Located in Montreal, Cana )to cheer Kimi on. At the start of this season, I was apprehensive wearing my hat when watching the races live, what with Kimi driving for the Red team. But, the scandal had helped we make up my mind - I will cheer for Kimi without my hat.

aseem · 9th September 2007, 04:16

Firstly either both drivers get punished or none. It was De La Rosa that emailed Alonso that he knows how Ferrari extract the best from their tyres. Alonso emailed back "I dont believe you". Now how can Alonso be faulted for someone emailing him something that he doesnt believe?

Second even if Alonso learnt this from De La Rosa, the feedback from the test driver resulted in an improved Mc Laren car giving advantage to both drivers and not just Alonso.

Third, FIA has categorically mentioned in their letter to the Mc Laren drivers that they would be granted immunity.

Fourth if Mc Laren is banned or stripped from constructors championship and 2008, I am pretty sure the performance advantage they have over Ferrari would finish for the rest of the season as they would know they are on their way out. No new developments, and costly legal battles, as I am sure they are not going to sit back without challenging this in civil court.

Lastly there seems to be a notion that Hamilton(favored driver in Mc Laren) has won the championship. I DISAGREE, the championship is wide open and Alonso probably has 50% if not more chances of winning it. The outcome of this weekend shall add more validity to this point.

And finally this reminds me of what Bernie did in Indianapolis when Michelin failed to bring good tyres. If let to Bernie and Ferrari, they would be racing against themselves. Finally after so many years we had such a great season only to see the championship being granted off track. The same way they had nailed Michelin runners (Montoya) in 2004 championship when they had changed the tyre inspection rule in the middle of the season when they saw that Michelin shod Williams BMW had an advantage over Bridgestone shod Ferrari. F1 can no longer be considered a sport. I for one would stop seeing it, if indeed the championship is decided off track on coming Thursday!!!

Mpower · 9th September 2007, 07:24

I was wondering the same thing. When I first read the title, I was wondering which championship it is that Hamilton has already won. Last year's GP2?

madan80 · 9th September 2007, 18:24

maybe its the FIA's way of trying to protect the older drivers. If hamilton comes in and takes the title, it will be the first rookee to have done so, and that might send out a "bad" example.
how does one call this sports? its worse than match fixing.

Zensible · 9th September 2007, 20:02

Looks like Bernie fits the old adage " Absolute power corrupts absolutely". F1 is starting to look like WWF if what I read in some of the posts below is true.

The Italian Police seem to be getting in the action as well, issuing an 'avviso di garanzia' right before Saturday Practise to McLaren. Nothing like putting more pressure and negative press on McLaren to give an advantage to their home team, Ferrari!

At the end of the day, I support my favourite driver, Kimi Raikkonen. Till he joined Ferrari, I didn't really care for that team.

I for one will continue to watch F1 as long as Kimi is in an F1 car, no matter what team.

aseem · 9th September 2007, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by madan80

maybe its the FIA's way of trying to protect the older drivers. If hamilton comes in and takes the title, it will be the first rookee to have done so, and that might send out a "bad" example.
how does one call this sports? its worse than match fixing.

Bernie is more close to Hamilton than Nando if anything... Here is a story from Martin Brundle confirming that rules have been changed and bent to make Ferrari win, in the past and even now. Nice read... confirms what I just said about Michelin tyres being deemed to wide in 2004 when Monty was leading Schumi in the championship. And last year when Nando was given a grid penalty in Monza...

itv.com/f1 - Brundle: Spy row must not ruin F1

1100D · 10th September 2007, 23:36

Haven't we seen the controversies int he past like that of brake steer, traction control, barge boards. Hasn't there been countless dubious decisions. Formula 1 and its murky waters. Viewership matters. Tifosi rules.

That's Entertainment!
Why Ferrari are bigger than the law

Yes, offcourse, anyone can write anything, freedom of expression.

im_srini · 11th September 2007, 10:52

Whoa ! What's with all this anti-Ferrari rhetoric ? What McLaren's Mike Coughlan should have done in the first place was to report Stepney's illegal overtures, instead he keeps the Ferrari technical document, all 800 pages of it, in his possession at his home ! He was caught only because he had his wife photo-copy it, & an alert Xerox Samaritan alerted Ferrari !?! Of course Ferrari's incensed, they've spent months, thousands of man-hours, & millions in developing their car, & it's handed to McLaren on a silver platter !

Just imagine the roles being reversed, Ferrari would've been drawn, quartered, & crucified ! Everybody would have the 'lynch Ferrari' look in their eyes. McLaren however, incredulously get off the hook, due to 'lack of evidence' that they actually used the information in the Ferrari document - Mike Coughlan was their chief designer for heaven's sake !

And of course, both the McLaren drivers should be banned, their success is a direct result of McLaren's subterfuge isn't it ? How fair would it be to Ferrari if the drivers aren't stripped off their points ? Is the success of McLaren's drivers independent of their cars ? What did Alonso & Hamilton do, get out & push the cars around !?!

What is infuriating is that instead of getting on Ferrari's side, & doing what is right, we have people like Brundle talk of the 'greater good', & that all this should be swept under the carpet ! Sure Mr.Brundle, I'm sure you would be talking of the 'greater good' if sensitive McLaren data was found at Ferrari too !?!

And does anybody else think that the F1 commentators we get here are too, how should I put it, 'anglophilic' ? On, & on, about how great Hamilton is, & how the 'British' (DC, & Button) drivers are doing - it makes me sick ! Don't they realize that millions around the world are watching too, & may not always share their enthusiasm for their home-country ?

RacingForIndia · 11th September 2007, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

This will effectively give Ferrari the championship on a silver platter, and take away F1 viewership. This is potentially the first 4-way fight to the championship since 1999.

I dont think its going to happen

.

2003 came pretty close to being a four way battle as well.

RacingForIndia · 11th September 2007, 14:12

Had McLaren instigated Nigel Stephney to steal those documents then they could be condemned as perpetrators of the crime. In this case a disgruntled employee has walked to McLarens doorsteps (rather the doorstep of one of their employees) and handed him that info on platter. There’s no evidence of the fact that McLaren have used that info on their cars, as the FIA have already checked McLarens cars to see if they have any parts mentioned in the Ferrari document.
How an employee can go out of Ferrari compound with a 800 page document is beyond me. Should Ferrari be investigating such lapses in their security first?
I think McLaren will come out if this clean.

muralisk · 11th September 2007, 14:45

I guess we need to wait for the judgment to come out. I hope that McLaren would be punished for this shameful act and their points would be docked and banned for couple of years from racing. Also, I personally don't feel bad if both the drives loose their points as they have knowingly or unknowingly benefited from competitor information.

nitrous · 11th September 2007, 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by madan

maybe its the FIA's way of trying to protect the older drivers. If hamilton comes in and takes the title, it will be the first rookee to have done so, and that might send out a "bad" example.
how does one call this sports? its worse than match fixing.

Please don't compare this with cricket. That is a loser's game.
In cricket , People get paid to lose.
In F1, People get paid to win (by hook/crook is a different topic).

Please do not judge this sport until the final judgement is given.

Gordon · 11th September 2007, 16:00

I don't care about Alonso. I wish Hamilton doesn't have to bear any consequences because of his team. Butttt.....

Hamilton and Alonso are part of the team. Its fair to strip them off their points if the team is found guilty. The team as a whole should be punished in this case.

Like finneyp said "the data stolen out of 'espionage' would have boosted the performance of Mclaren Cars to some extent, giving unfair advantage to Hamilton / Alonso."

Dippy · 11th September 2007, 16:11

Just two days to go for the hearing. Earlier Mclaren were not punished because there was no evidence. Now there is. About the Ferrari info being used on the Mclaren cars..

Think about it 2006 season. Mclaren dont win a single race all through the season. bad reliability and Kimi blows up in every other race.

2007 season. Mclaren are winning and how. Super reliability on both the cars. From no where last year they are heading to win both the championships this season.

And we still think Ferrari document info wasnt used in the Mclaren cars? Think about it.

nitrous · 11th September 2007, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippy

Think about it 2006 season. Mclaren dont win a single race all through the season. bad reliability and Kimi blows up in every other race.

2007 season. Mclaren are winning and how. Super reliability on both the cars. From no where lat year they are heading to win both the championships this season.

And we still think Ferrari document info wasnt used in the Mclaren cars? Think about it.

Now,there's a fellow tifosi talking.
Give it to them,dippy!!

9th September 2007, 02:02	#16
Zensible BHPian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Chennai/Chicago Posts: 80 Thanked: 0 Times	Looks like the latest revelation is Alonso and de la Rossa being involved. If the FIA cannot find any conclusive evidence of Hamilton's involvement, they should let him keep his points and the way it's going, let him win the Championship. Even though I'd love to see Raikkonen win the Championship, it's only fair for the best man in the better car to win, and that, at this time, is unquestionably Hamilton (as long as he's not involved in the scandal). PS: During the 2005 and 2006 seasons, I put on my Kimi/McLaren hat ( Kimi Raikkonen signed official 2005 Kimi Raikkonen McLaren Cap [KR06C2] : Formula World Shop, The Formula 1 on-line store - Formula One items like Autographs, Memorabilia, F1 Team & Grand Prix Gear, Diecast, Photographs, ... Located in Montreal, Cana )to cheer Kimi on. At the start of this season, I was apprehensive wearing my hat when watching the races live, what with Kimi driving for the Red team. But, the scandal had helped we make up my mind - I will cheer for Kimi without my hat.
	() Thanks

9th September 2007, 04:16	#17
aseem Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Delhi Posts: 1,730 Thanked: 441 Times	Firstly either both drivers get punished or none. It was De La Rosa that emailed Alonso that he knows how Ferrari extract the best from their tyres. Alonso emailed back "I dont believe you". Now how can Alonso be faulted for someone emailing him something that he doesnt believe? Second even if Alonso learnt this from De La Rosa, the feedback from the test driver resulted in an improved Mc Laren car giving advantage to both drivers and not just Alonso. Third, FIA has categorically mentioned in their letter to the Mc Laren drivers that they would be granted immunity. Fourth if Mc Laren is banned or stripped from constructors championship and 2008, I am pretty sure the performance advantage they have over Ferrari would finish for the rest of the season as they would know they are on their way out. No new developments, and costly legal battles, as I am sure they are not going to sit back without challenging this in civil court. Lastly there seems to be a notion that Hamilton(favored driver in Mc Laren) has won the championship. I DISAGREE, the championship is wide open and Alonso probably has 50% if not more chances of winning it. The outcome of this weekend shall add more validity to this point. And finally this reminds me of what Bernie did in Indianapolis when Michelin failed to bring good tyres. If let to Bernie and Ferrari, they would be racing against themselves. Finally after so many years we had such a great season only to see the championship being granted off track. The same way they had nailed Michelin runners (Montoya) in 2004 championship when they had changed the tyre inspection rule in the middle of the season when they saw that Michelin shod Williams BMW had an advantage over Bridgestone shod Ferrari. F1 can no longer be considered a sport. I for one would stop seeing it, if indeed the championship is decided off track on coming Thursday!!!
	() Thanks

9th September 2007, 07:24	#18
Mpower Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 10,409 Thanked: 1,729 Times View My Garage	I was wondering the same thing. When I first read the title, I was wondering which championship it is that Hamilton has already won. Last year's GP2? Last edited by Mpower : 9th September 2007 at 07:25.
	() Thanks

9th September 2007, 18:24	#19
madan80 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 1,360 Thanked: 80 Times View My Garage	maybe its the FIA's way of trying to protect the older drivers. If hamilton comes in and takes the title, it will be the first rookee to have done so, and that might send out a "bad" example. how does one call this sports? its worse than match fixing.
	() Thanks

9th September 2007, 20:02	#20
Zensible BHPian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Chennai/Chicago Posts: 80 Thanked: 0 Times	Looks like Bernie fits the old adage " Absolute power corrupts absolutely". F1 is starting to look like WWF if what I read in some of the posts below is true. The Italian Police seem to be getting in the action as well, issuing an 'avviso di garanzia' right before Saturday Practise to McLaren. Nothing like putting more pressure and negative press on McLaren to give an advantage to their home team, Ferrari! At the end of the day, I support my favourite driver, Kimi Raikkonen. Till he joined Ferrari, I didn't really care for that team. I for one will continue to watch F1 as long as Kimi is in an F1 car, no matter what team.
	() Thanks

10th September 2007, 23:36	#22
1100D Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Calcutta Posts: 4,390 Thanked: 4,079 Times View My Garage	Haven't we seen the controversies int he past like that of brake steer, traction control, barge boards. Hasn't there been countless dubious decisions. Formula 1 and its murky waters. Viewership matters. Tifosi rules. That's Entertainment! Why Ferrari are bigger than the law Yes, offcourse, anyone can write anything, freedom of expression.
	() Thanks

11th September 2007, 10:52	#23
im_srini BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Portland Posts: 1,010 Thanked: 489 Times View My Garage	Whoa ! What's with all this anti-Ferrari rhetoric ? What McLaren's Mike Coughlan should have done in the first place was to report Stepney's illegal overtures, instead he keeps the Ferrari technical document, all 800 pages of it, in his possession at his home ! He was caught only because he had his wife photo-copy it, & an alert Xerox Samaritan alerted Ferrari !?! Of course Ferrari's incensed, they've spent months, thousands of man-hours, & millions in developing their car, & it's handed to McLaren on a silver platter ! Just imagine the roles being reversed, Ferrari would've been drawn, quartered, & crucified ! Everybody would have the 'lynch Ferrari' look in their eyes. McLaren however, incredulously get off the hook, due to 'lack of evidence' that they actually used the information in the Ferrari document - Mike Coughlan was their chief designer for heaven's sake ! And of course, both the McLaren drivers should be banned, their success is a direct result of McLaren's subterfuge isn't it ? How fair would it be to Ferrari if the drivers aren't stripped off their points ? Is the success of McLaren's drivers independent of their cars ? What did Alonso & Hamilton do, get out & push the cars around !?! What is infuriating is that instead of getting on Ferrari's side, & doing what is right, we have people like Brundle talk of the 'greater good', & that all this should be swept under the carpet ! Sure Mr.Brundle, I'm sure you would be talking of the 'greater good' if sensitive McLaren data was found at Ferrari too !?! And does anybody else think that the F1 commentators we get here are too, how should I put it, 'anglophilic' ? On, & on, about how great Hamilton is, & how the 'British' (DC, & Button) drivers are doing - it makes me sick ! Don't they realize that millions around the world are watching too, & may not always share their enthusiasm for their home-country ?
	() Thanks

11th September 2007, 14:12	#25
RacingForIndia BHPian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Pune Posts: 482 Thanked: 36 Times View My Garage	Had McLaren instigated Nigel Stephney to steal those documents then they could be condemned as perpetrators of the crime. In this case a disgruntled employee has walked to McLarens doorsteps (rather the doorstep of one of their employees) and handed him that info on platter. There’s no evidence of the fact that McLaren have used that info on their cars, as the FIA have already checked McLarens cars to see if they have any parts mentioned in the Ferrari document. How an employee can go out of Ferrari compound with a 800 page document is beyond me. Should Ferrari be investigating such lapses in their security first? I think McLaren will come out if this clean.
	() Thanks

11th September 2007, 14:45	#26
muralisk BHPian Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hyderabad, Bangalore Posts: 711 Thanked: 13 Times View My Garage	I guess we need to wait for the judgment to come out. I hope that McLaren would be punished for this shameful act and their points would be docked and banned for couple of years from racing. Also, I personally don't feel bad if both the drives loose their points as they have knowingly or unknowingly benefited from competitor information.
	() Thanks

11th September 2007, 16:00	#28
Gordon Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 2,546 Thanked: 483 Times View My Garage	I don't care about Alonso. I wish Hamilton doesn't have to bear any consequences because of his team. Butttt..... Hamilton and Alonso are part of the team. Its fair to strip them off their points if the team is found guilty. The team as a whole should be punished in this case. Like finneyp said "the data stolen out of 'espionage' would have boosted the performance of Mclaren Cars to some extent, giving unfair advantage to Hamilton / Alonso."
	() Thanks

11th September 2007, 16:11	#29
Dippy Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai, India Posts: 7,557 Thanked: 2,459 Times	Just two days to go for the hearing. Earlier Mclaren were not punished because there was no evidence. Now there is. About the Ferrari info being used on the Mclaren cars.. Think about it 2006 season. Mclaren dont win a single race all through the season. bad reliability and Kimi blows up in every other race. 2007 season. Mclaren are winning and how. Super reliability on both the cars. From no where last year they are heading to win both the championships this season. And we still think Ferrari document info wasnt used in the Mclaren cars? Think about it. Last edited by Dippy : 11th September 2007 at 16:18.
	() Thanks